https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3328469142

Another mod inspired by this mod has been released. I recommend it because at least it works on new versions. If there is no link above my message, then write in the search ^^Переработка 3 и 4 доктрин^^

it seems i cant find out how too fix the mod its been too many updates i tried too correct some values but the game refuses too let it work

ok i will update the mod shouldnt be more then chnaging a few values i will upload it on github if i cna steam uploads dont work for me at all

i bet the mod still works or works again its hoi4 afterall sometimes mod just start working again

Update?

@EatAssMf : Not particularly. Grand battleplan bonus affect all unit kind equally, but most of grand battleplan are quite infantry focused. There is no cavalry specific bonus.

Tried the mod with the latest vesion of HOI4 (14/09/19), it's still working.

I didn t try it yet. Does it affect cavalry do?

@SovietWeeb That's more something that'd fit in the industry tree than army doctrines.

Would you be interested in making a land doctine that offers little in the ways of buffs but is centered around Production cost reductions for Planes, Sea, Land vehicles and building price cost. Have the split in the focus tree be either having further reduction cost with some some debuffs to vehicle performance or have the other split be about reduced production with quality vehicles?

sorry to bother you @gbfree but can you update this please?

does this still work?

u p d a t e

pls update

@gbfree UPDATE I CANT PLAY WITH OUT IT AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

could you do this for the last two doctrines?

update?

@0tt1S_T1C I don't really know.
It won't be compatible with any mod that modify land doctrine.
But anything from other mods else than a modified land doctrine will work.
If it is used with another mod that modify land doctrine, only the doctrine tree of one of the mods will apear and it should still be stable. But I don't know which.
Well try it, it will be rather straightforward which land doctrine tree is loaded last.

what would happen if i played this mod with road to 56 in? would it replace the rt56 doctrine tree or would it just not work?

will there be any further development to this? I really liked this mod, and it would be very interesting to see what mobile warfare and superior firepower would look like

@Lantians
Same as vanilla : it start with the first doctrine of a tree (grand BP for all minor, mobile warfare Germany, mass assault USSR,...) then take a random choice when there is a split in the tree.
Most of the choices being either good or great, it's not really a problem (and allow some diversity between each game / nations).
Reducing manpower in Mass assault could be problematic to India IA but it use Grand Battleplan.
The only "problem" is that as long as you're not fighting them you have no way to know which exact path the enemy has taken and it may/will impact how they fight

TLDR : The IA doesn't care and may/will behave differently with each possible research path, but in the end it doesn't really matter, at best providing a tiny bit different fight each game.
One game France may have an invincible Maginot line but if breached would collapse, another time the line will be less strong but will be able to reform and reentrench if needed. I don't really think it's a problem

How does the AI use this tree?

@The Romanian Reaver For the first time I actually agree wth 90% of your comment

"so when we have been comparing penetration and armour values before with only minor references to infantry support that isnt tank-tank combat. "
With the HE we weren't.

"also the panzer 4 was built from F2 onwards as a tank destroyer."
It got shifted the role the Panzer 3 held. It was a medium tank not a tank destroyer though.

" if German tanks were so "technically inferior" why did the germans have a kill reatio over the russians of 1:4 in 1944?"
Because the russians SUUUUUCKED in terms of assault tactics.

" finally it does matter how much the L43/48 can penetrate as it extends the maximum range it can engage a tank at."
Then your previous statement was a non-sequitur as the pen values weren't good enough at 1-1.5 km.

"at this point we may as well just agree to disagree because i really cant be arsed to listen to you while youre deepthroating stalin's cock"
Reality = deepthroating Stalin's cock now... my my aren't you butt cheek spread for Hitler.

"And no we're not talking tank on tank combat lad" so when we have been comparing penetration and armour values before with only minor references to infantry support that isnt tank-tank combat. also the panzer 4 was built from F2 onwards as a tank destroyer. its like comparing a wolverine with a sherman 75. also no, im not readying a genetic fallacy im just recognising that you quoted a post on my favourite game. if German tanks were so "technically inferior" why did the germans have a kill reatio over the russians of 1:4 in 1944? finally it does matter how much the L43/48 can penetrate as it extends the maximum range it can engage a tank at. at this point we may as well just agree to disagree because i really cant be arsed to listen to you while youre deepthroating stalin's cock

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/soviet/soviet_T34-85.php
So the mod 1944 was 17.6 k which means that by D-day the soviets had at least 11k T-34-85s fielded or in reserve.76 was also available,but not taken,in nr for D-Day.


And no we're not talking tank on tank combat lad. You do know there's a reason HE shells during world war 2 were lower velocity than AP shells shot from the same exact gun. That's to prevent the shell exploding from the stress of being propelled too quickly or reducing HE filler.

The Panzer 4 has ~80 mm frontal on a very narrow strip. Doesn't matter how much more the L43 and L48 can pen if the other two can get around 90-100 mm penetration then no amount of, real world, angling is gonna save the Panzer 4 while both the T-34-85 and the M4 (most variants except the Jumbo which had even more) had between 90 and 100 mm of effective front armor.


"although i do rate that you got the Data off of the war thunder forums."
Readying a genetic fallacy for us wherb?

@the romanian reaver. "the russians created 29.430 t-34-85's" notice how i said Before the Normandy Landings. "the Kwk 4/36 cant shoot HE without shooting its own gun off"-yes, i know we are talking about tank on tank combat here, which most tank crews wouldnt use HE for.
"https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/81262-world-war-ii-gun-penetration-tables/
Keep trying." if yyou actually looked at this table that youre obviously so proud of you would realise you have completely undermined your own argument. at 500m both the L43 and L48 can penetrate over 120mm of steel which is nearly twice the amount needed to pen a t34, this just made me laugh, laugh like i have all the time over youre unneccesarily snarky comments. although i do rate that you got the Data off of the war thunder forums.

"however it is worth noting that that neither the t34-85"
From their introduction until the end of the war: 29,430 T-34/85s were made.

"or the sherman 76"
By V-E day half the operational shermans in Europe had a 76 mm pecker.

"the germans used excellent guns such as the kwk40 and the kwk36 to combat the huge amount of armour the allies used to support their infantry which is why their guns had good he"
Kwk 40 can't shoot adequate HE without blowing its own gun off.
Kwk 36 I'll assume is the 88 and not 37 in which case: Same issue as above.

" just not from as far away."
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/81262-world-war-ii-gun-penetration-tables/
Keep trying.

part 2: the germans used excellent guns such as the kwk40 and the kwk36 to combat the huge amount of armour the allies used to support their infantry which is why their guns had good he but poor ap properties. so within the panzer 4's lifetime it could penetrate both the sherman and the t34 but they could penetrate it, just not from as far away. again, i dont wank over pictures of hitler i just find German technology to be interesting, you're obviously more biased to daddy stalin and uncle sam than i am to hitler.

from doing a quick bit of research it is clear that the penetration qualities of the kwk 40 was far in excess of the 75 and 76.2 on the t34 and regular sherman while it is about on par with the US 76 and less effective overall than the 85mm on the t34-85. however it is worth noting that that neither the t34-85 or the sherman 76 were fielded in large numbers until the allied invasion of normandy and the basic variants were still in use in 1945. on the other hand both the t34 and the sherman's guns had excellent he shells which fitted with doctrine. this is the main difference between allied and german tanks.

" that is just not true, especially as a tank can angle its armour to bounce shots even easier and to increase its effective thickness"
If it were world of tanks it'd still go right in because you'd be under 1km.

"also lets not forget that the l48 and l43 could actually take out any russian tank apart from the IS model tanks up to 1000m."
Mod 1942 and T-34/85s would bounce the l48 more often than not just like Shermans.

"o finish it off here is a quote from a british sherman tank crewman "In open combat we never had a chance.""
Versus Panthers which would rarely present their side armour for obvious reasons.

"lso try and remove some of the hate from your comment. ive been commenting in this section because i love a good debate but please leave your insults at the door next time :)"
It ain't a insult if all you do is wank to german propaganda. Gun penetration data shows clearly the 75 mm L48 was a middling gun and the L70 had horrific issues in tight areas due to its length.

First of all yes i am biased towards german equipment during the war as i personally find it the most interesting (im not a neo nazi or anything XD) " The T-34 Mod 1940 could punt a shell through the front of a Panzer 4 up to the 80mm uparmor at around 1 km and a Mod 1942 could do that to any Panzer 4 ever fielded." that is just not true, especially as a tank can angle its armour to bounce shots even easier and to increase its effective thickness. also lets not forget that the l48 and l43 could actually take out any russian tank apart from the IS model tanks up to 1000m. to finish it off here is a quote from a british sherman tank crewman "In open combat we never had a chance." also try and remove some of the hate from your comment. ive been commenting in this section because i love a good debate but please leave your insults at the door next time :)

They were vastly inferior. The T-34 Mod 1940 could punt a shell through the front of a Panzer 4 up to the 80mm uparmor at around 1 km and a Mod 1942 could do that to any Panzer 4 ever fielded.

The Sherman was also never called a Tommy cooker by anyone outside maybe german gun crews that set about making sure they'd burn out after their crews bailed and were long gone. And the 76 mm gun you said was similar to the 75 l48 in performance... was actually closer to the L70 as the l48 couldn't reliably breach the front of a tiger 1 at combat ranges, thus would also often bounce off the front of even early shermans, while the 76 would go in every single time and that's without talking HVAP.

Anything else? Or shall I let you masturbate to Rommel's picture again?

@The Romanian Reaver Just because they were overenginered does not mean they were inferior on the battlefield and Shermans were far more dangerous to be inside which is why they were nicknamed tommy cookers

@Alexander because certain virgins think German tanks weren't overengineered death traps.

@Alexander because wehraboos like me need to be put in ur place

why the fuck is everyone arguing about tanks

@Cancer_Strike_Go_Off_Yourself Again no, the Panzer IV is superior is a clear misconception spread by history channel. the Panzer IVF2 was 100% outclassed by the sherman in North Africa both in close range and long range fighting. The only big difference between the PzKpfw IVF2 and the PzKpfw IV G/H/J is the hull upgrade from a mere flat 50mm to flat 80mm. the turret was still at a stupid low flat 50mm by 1945. the M72 shot fired from the Sherman 75mm M3 was able to pen about 52mm of armor at 2'000m... Meanwhile the Pzgr 39 fired by the Panzer IV was unable to pen both the hull and mantlet of the M4A3 at 2'000m. 83mm of pen at 2'000m against a 90mm thick mantlet. There's a good reason why mobile tank destroyers and versatile medium tanks were chosen over heavy tanks by the US armed forces. If the USA really wanted it, they could have mass produced the T29 Heavy tank wich simply bitchslapped the King Tiger in pretty much everything. It simply wasn't needed.

(part 2) a lot is said about the effectiveness of the sherman/t34's sloped armour but in reality literally every gun in the german arsenal save the 37mm could penetrate a sherman from the front. essentially in tank on tank combat versus a panzer 4 in relatively open terrain the mark 4 would win hands down. this was not how most tank combat took place in western europe however and the american and british numerical advantage simply overwhelmed the germans, leading to "we're American and won the war on our own so obviously we did everything better" syndrome. in conclusion for tank combat the panzer 4 was better while for infantry support the sherman excelled.

@cyrus Jackson as a tank fighting vehicle the sherman was simply not in the same league as the pz4 at long range (the 75) while the 76 was almost on par with the kwk40 L/48 however only one in 4 shermans had this gun and due to the distinct turret on the easy 8 it was always targeted first. as for the m36 only 1500 were ever made which means for every one produced you would see 33 shermans/wolverines. (which were always targeted first).

@Keineemails that's simply wrong. The Sherman tank was a superior design than the Panzer IV from 1942 to 1945. The M4 Sherman was easily able to dispatch the Panzer IV and III in North Africa even with the 75mm. Let's not forget even the Panzer IVH only has 50mm of FLAT armor in the turret... Furthermore, the 76mm loaded with a HVAP shell was capable of knocking out a Tiger H1 past 2'000m! It's also important to note the US doctrine relied heavily around the usage of tank destroyers company. The 90mm mounted on the M36 Jackson and M26 Pershing was capable of penning the Panther hull at 1'000m with the T33 AP shot and also capable of killing a Königstiger IIH at 2'000m with the M304 HVAP shot. Simply put, by 1945, the usual US armored divisions were simply better equipped than even your best equipped Panzer Division.

2keineemails: go back to your mamas basement wehraboo.

Late Pz 4 models were crap, as the war continued in order to decrease the cost and time of production their the design become drastically simplified. And dont let me start on ze german armor quality, that in the late war simply dissapered.

And if you actually read french reports about use of Panther tanks, you will see that they were "not impressed". They loathed those tanks, noting their big weight, cramped interior and constant breakdowns. And post war Leos have nothing to do with Panthers, they are child of joint franko-german-italian research. Leopard and Panther have literally zero in common.

Yeah and the russians learned their lesson and produced IS tanks that raped german tin cans and overweght monstrocities.

One would had thought that vanilla trees could not be made worse, but the guy proved this wrong.

looks great, a rework of the other trees would be superb too!

a very great idea for a mod, I can't wait till you do the other trees

are you doing Superior Firepower and Mobile Warfare as well?

@commissar galdos you would describe 12 million service personnel as "moderately sized"?

1944 -45 the most of german tanks get lost because of the lack of gasolin and enemy airforce not during tankbattles. The russian has learnt the lession 1943 and avoit big tanks battles like the battle of Kursk.

@ ha ..."was 75/48"... is wrong. The Panther had 7,5cm L70. The was widly used after the war by france. The german Leopards are a chilrden of Panther.

@Obsolete Turtle
The late models of the Panzer IV (G,H, J) were superior. Because of the better gun und better quality of the armor. The most shermans has a weak gun. The normal sherman was scarcely equal to Panzer III's with long barral (5 cm L 60). But the nummers make it. 1 German Tank agains 10 enemies. The Tigers und Panthers did it. But most of than were "killed" by airforce in the west.