LOOK AT THIS! WHAT IS WRONG WITH DOTA 2 MATCHMAKING

[76561198074267539]

I just played this game, {LINK REMOVED}http://dotabuff.com/matches/439389396 and as you can see I dominated the other team single-handedly. Unfortunately, as seems to always happen my team was useless and didn't know how to counter tinker/furion push. So I lose, big whoop. You win some you lose some. But guess what happens to my matchmaking ranking...well it sure doesn't go up. In fact it goes down -27, more than it has in some other games where I didn't play as well. Listen valve. Just tell us that mmr change is pretty much entirely based on win loss with a 1-3 point randomizer tacked on. To claim anything else is to spit in the face of all of the skilled dota players who can see it's obviously not true.

[Domain Expansion: Infinite Whiff]

I didn't watch the video but i get it a lot. I push and put down all the way to tier 4 left. But our team can still lose. -.- it's really surprising you know? How i'm overfarmed and they run away when the enemy do a 5 man charge to us...

[squids]

I feel like it's this way for pretty much every game (LoL, HoN, etc). The system is flawed but I think it's the best they can do, plus it's still new

[76561198074267539]

yeah I mean as much as I'd like to win, sometimes it just isn't in the cards with the teammates you have. but why should my rank go down because of a loss if I personally played an awesome game? Every game your rank changes as a team which is wrong.

[76561198074267539]

Let's say you have someone on your team who purposefully feeds. Just right clicks the enemy fountain each time he spawns and instadies. So your team loses and according to this all of your ranks would go down. But I bet you the crazy feeder only loses a maximum of five more points than you, when in reality he should lose 100 and you should stay even.

[Domain Expansion: Infinite Whiff]

Yea. I remember a time like this...i played like 15-3-5 or somewhere there...and they we're like few kills and a lot of deaths...

[Octavia]

Originally posted by COMMEND:

why should my rank go down because of a loss if I personally played an awesome game? Every game your rank changes as a team which is wrong.

Because you can't measure individual progress, or at least the system can't do so properly. Especially for supports, even more so when heroes have multiple potential roles(Such as Alchemist being a support, carry or mid). How would you measure a support's progress, because kills and deaths isn't possible, unless you want to make support incredible rare in pubs as saving a carry at their expense is a good move. Likewise, judging based on aspects like Wards bought will lead to very non-effective Ward positions so people can 'get it over with'.

A programmed system can't really see the finer points of a match, so it makes an overall judgement based on your win and loss rating. It's unfortunate, but that's how it has to happen so players don't get punished for playing a good support or overly rewarded for playing a good carry when it was only possible because of the team as a whole; leaving a report system for intentional feeders(Which would reduce their rank further) would be... troublesome unless manually checked, and Valve doesn't appear to do that. So that's not really fair; the best you could manage is that when someone abandons, is reported for intentional feeding or anything else, the match counts for nobody, but that defeats the purpose of ranked and could lead to stacking abuse by intentional reporting that fifth player when the others are four stacked to avoid a loss on their ranking.

All in all, the system is bad, but the system is going to be bad unless someone watches each and every match, analyzes it in detail and assigns a rating based on very strict rules. While it would create a lot of jobs, I doubt that's going to happen any time soon, and there'd be a significant delay in actual matchmaking results because of it.

[76561198074267539]

Ability in a computer game can totally be measured individually. Let's look at the role of support. Yes number of wards is a bad measure. But how about this: A measure of how many wards you place, where you place them, how often the enemy hero is in the view of that ward, and how many kills happen in which the dead hero was in view of that ward within the past couple of seconds. I understand that it is difficult, but since determining someone's ability is central to a player's drive to play, you'd think Valve would be putting a lot of effort into determining a formula that isn't based pretty much entirely on win loss.

Perfectly fair matchmaking is impossible to control because a person has good games and bad games and a computer has no way of knowing which any given game will be for that person. But how a person plays in a game is measurable. Valve needs to figure this out fast.

[Aros]

y

[Octavia]

Do you understand how a computer measures variables, much less functions? It works off pure numbers and adding that amount of variables, measured in specific situations is ridiculous; what about Wards which spot rotations and prevent someone from dying? How about the support buying Wards which another player places, with the support's guidance? A computer cannot realistically keep track of all those in a meaningful, thoughtful, rational manner.

You can't measure individual skills via the computer because there's too many variables. What about a support who saves a carry multiple times, at the cost of their own life? Is the game going to go as far as calculating the potential damage output of the enemy team, counting in global spells, and determining if the support's sacrifice was worth it or not? You can't program something like that because of all the variables.

Saying what matters is easy, attributing a point number to each and every action, and then having them work properly, is another matter entirely. A computer will never accurately measure the way a person plays until it becomes sentient, and you need to realize that. A support who places Wards defensively in an area that spots rotations, by your point system, would score less points than one who Wards aggressively and may get a kill, even if the situation didn't call for it. Not to mention the Ward may not even be the reason for the kill(For example, a lane Ward that was in position while the enemy over-extended where vision was not lost on the enemy hero killed).

[76561198074267539]

I'm a computer science major so yes, I do know exactly how a computer measures variables. And one thing you have to understand is that there are never too many variables. Especially in the confines of a game with rules. Everything in the game of dota can and eventually will be measured, it is only a matter of whether Valve is up for the challenge. You sound like a worker at Valve, claiming it is impossible unless the program is sentient. It is that kind of mindset that keeps the matchmaking system broken.

[Octavia]

You're free to go program a complex system of variables that make it work, then. I don't think you realize how a game works if you think the variables can be properly programmed into a matchmaking system beyond wins and losses, especially when certain skills come into factor, particularly luck based critical hits or pseudo-random ones, such as some of Chen's or Chaos Knight's skills, where good or bad luck can guarantee a kill or not. Getting a two second stun or a four second stun is literally out of Chaos Knight's control, and it can make a kill impossible or easy based on the result.

You can't measure some things in this game with facts, the same goes for many competitive games, because it's team based and subjective; when you judge things based on proximity or situations, you lose out on 'points' because the system, based purely on facts, can't recognize them. For example, it'd be difficult to properly program, much less distinguish, if a support should get more points for blocking someone attempting to kill their carry, or for disabling them. Sure, blocking takes more skill, but disabling is the safer thing to do.

Even if you could tack on a measurable quantity to everything, exactly how do you measure it in strict, arbitrary values? If you are a computer science major(Funny you never mentioned that before, eh?), then you'd have to know that you need numbers for each 'point' to count, yes? Then I'd love to know exactly how many you're going to put on what actions at what period of time and under which circumstances they occur, for every single action taken in the game. I'm no computer science expert, but that sounds incredibly taxing, easily abused or worked around, difficult to properly implement in its totally and sounds like it would be somewhat stressful on the servers, because not only would they have to run a match, they'd need to analyze it in its entirety, which is an increase in cost for Valve.

Every matchmaking system will be broken until they can analyze everything with the level of subjectivity and perception computers lack. There are too many variables in the sense that you really can't put a specific number on how skilled something is, or how not skilled it is, based on the circumstances; for example, does an Invoker who gets a 'blind' Sunstrike kill deserve less points if Bloodseeker is on his team, providing sight of the enemy and limiting dodges? Or is it the Invoker who guesses who deserves more, or is that irrelevant?

There are too many variables to realistically program a functional matchmaking system based on individual performance in a well-constructed, efficient manner that would be fair for each and every role, player and hero.

[76561198074267539]

Lol you seem to be quite offensive towards me for reasons I do not understand. I think we can both agree the current system is not ideal. I never said I was going to program a new one (also didn't think I needed to begin every post with "hey I'm a computer scientist"), nor did I say every single last variable needs to be accounted for. What I'm suggesting is that there are better systems in which variables factor into your score other than just whether you won or not, which makes up about 90% of it right now. What you're saying is that since there are too many variables, instead of looking at a lot of them and maybe not being accurate for some strategies we should only look at one? You say you can't place a specific number on how skilled something is based on the circumstances but that is exactly what Valve is doing by making MMR based on wins and losses because a win is totally dependent on the circumstances

[76561198110937929]

wtf

[enesei]

when the game is safe to leave, and everybody leaves, the mmr is changing ?

[XanX]

There is lots of things that are taken into account. I think that you are purely looking at subjective things and do not know exactly how this is worked out. So assumption that its based on KDA is naive. I think there is a lot that the replay system picks up that can easily be attributed to skill. Even down to simple things like, being in the same general area as somebody else who scores a kill. And add to the fact the game records how much damamge you do per kill. There is so many variables, its not that its not seeing it, its how its interpreted. And thats the bit that people dont know