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Professional Seal Clubbing 6 déc 2012 à 15h32
I do understand the rant. Partly.
So, I've read through some of the posts in here, some on the blogs that are linked and I was really surprised by what a bad critic that game got.

Since when is the concept of beta funding something new? Wasn't it the same with FTL, Survivors of Ragnarok and many other games? Just because Steam only got into that phase doesn't mean it is particulary a bad thing.

Yes, the developers made some misstakes. Yes, there should be a big, fat red box saying "This game is beta. Do not buy the game if you don't want an unfinished game."

Yes, I do realize that not even on the homepage it says that. That is a really, really bad thing. There is a tiny hinf about pre purchrasing in the FAQ. But seriously, do you see a game on steam, go onto the steam website and say "Hey, those screenshot and that two minute pre rendered trailer do look awesome, I will now totally put 50 euro in this triple a spunkgargleweewee." ? If yes, oh dear.

To get back on the actual topic - everybody knows that greenlight is not even close to finish, nor does it knows what it wants to be - no matter how much Steam want us to believe that. Personally, I am happy if I am able to crowdfund such a project, or even betafund it. That is not something I am opposed of, nor are all the people that voted for this game.

So, yes. Both sides should have checked a bit more about their details.

In any way, I will stick to dwarf fortress because of ASCII.

Yours sincerly,
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Solo Solitaire (Banni) 6 déc 2012 à 15h54 
Thunder Rush a écrit :
Since when is the concept of beta funding something new? Wasn't it the same with FTL, Survivors of Ragnarok and many other games? Just because Steam only got into that phase doesn't mean it is particulary a bad thing.
I've yet to see a single person say this was the first beta funding concept they encountered. Most don't even mind supporting games in development. The outrage is over the lack of disclosure that you mention in the rest of your post. That seems to make this portion of your statement inappropriate for this situation.
Cyborgt 6 déc 2012 à 16h00 
Ok, it sounds like you understand the problem entirely but just feel like flame baiting by saying it's not important. For the sake of summing it all up though, i'll tell you what the primary problem is.

Not only did they never once indicate that this game is not in a finished state, they even actively claimed that it WAS complete in the forums. Nobody cares about the concept of crowdfunding an unfinished product. Had it been stated that was the case from the beginning I rather doubt half of the people would be here talking about it. They've even gone to the extent of removing the pre-order button from their site's main page.

That's about all there is to it really.
[DoH] kiraen 6 déc 2012 à 16h22 
Cyborgt a écrit :
They've even gone to the extent of removing the pre-order button from their site's main page.

No they didn't.
Cyborgt 6 déc 2012 à 16h35 
DoH kiraen a écrit :
Cyborgt a écrit :
They've even gone to the extent of removing the pre-order button from their site's main page.

No they didn't.

Coulda sworn we went over this in another thread. As I recall, they very recently did and now it shows as a buy now button.
Degraiver 6 déc 2012 à 17h38 
Nalidus a écrit :

We did. And SMP did change it as of yesterday.

You can't claim it was yesterday as you can not recall when it was changed. Just say "they changed it", if that statement is at all true to begin with anyways.
Degraiver 6 déc 2012 à 18h04 
Nalidus a écrit :
Degraiver a écrit :
Nalidus a écrit :

We did. And SMP did change it as of yesterday.

You can't claim it was yesterday as you can not recall when it was changed. Just say "they changed it", if that statement is at all true to begin with anyways.

You really shouldn't assume things.

I know they changed it yesterday as I witnessed it.
Pic or it didn't happen. You are too distrust worthy for me to believe you anymore. Any new accusations should come with evidence and not just word of mouth. Hear-say is not admissible in court.
[TB] thunderw 6 déc 2012 à 18h05 
Nalidus a écrit :
Degraiver a écrit :
Nalidus a écrit :

We did. And SMP did change it as of yesterday.

You can't claim it was yesterday as you can not recall when it was changed. Just say "they changed it", if that statement is at all true to begin with anyways.

You really shouldn't assume things.

I know they changed it yesterday as I witnessed it.

I saw it yesterday and then when I went back and the page refreshed, it was changed. So I have to assume it was yesterday or at least in the last 36 hours tops.
Degraiver 6 déc 2012 à 18h10 
thunderwkr a écrit :
I saw it yesterday and then when I went back and the page refreshed, it was changed. So I have to assume it was yesterday or at least in the last 36 hours tops.
I refer to the first sentence in my post.
Degraiver 6 déc 2012 à 18h16 
Nalidus a écrit :
Degraiver a écrit :
Nalidus a écrit :
Degraiver a écrit :
Nalidus a écrit :

We did. And SMP did change it as of yesterday.

You can't claim it was yesterday as you can not recall when it was changed. Just say "they changed it", if that statement is at all true to begin with anyways.

You really shouldn't assume things.

I know they changed it yesterday as I witnessed it.
Pic or it didn't happen. You are too distrust worthy for me to believe you anymore. Any new accusations should come with evidence and not just word of mouth. Hear-say is not admissible in court.

I see... More personal attacks by the Towns Defense Squad against me because they do not wish to hear the truth.
Your idea of the truth:
"I caught a fish this big." "Really? do you have a picture" "Why do I need a picture, I'm telling you the truth"

How truth is:
"I caught a fish this big." "Really? do you have a picture" "Why yes of course, how would you know if I'm lying or not if I didn't have proof." Picture is shown. "Wow its true"
Degraiver 6 déc 2012 à 18h22 
Nalidus a écrit :
You know... Keep telling yourself whatever you need to make yourself feel better. However, it doesn't make it true.
I retort to you with the same. Since we are talking about the Truth.
Dernière modification de Degraiver; 6 déc 2012 à 18h23
Solo Solitaire (Banni) 6 déc 2012 à 18h23 
There is a difference between true and proven. The lack of proof doesn't make something false, just allows a larger lack of acceptance.
Degraiver 6 déc 2012 à 18h31 
Evecque a écrit :
There is a difference between true and proven. The lack of proof doesn't make something false, just allows a larger lack of acceptance.
Quite right. But I have heard enough slander from this fellow to peg him as something not trustworthy for me to believe without proof that anything he claims to be the truth. Some of which can be taken as only opinion leaving only his take on the subject to fuel his accusations and claims.
Cyborgt 6 déc 2012 à 18h49 
Degraiver a écrit :
Evecque a écrit :
There is a difference between true and proven. The lack of proof doesn't make something false, just allows a larger lack of acceptance.
Quite right. But I have heard enough slander from this fellow to peg him as something not trustworthy for me to believe without proof that anything he claims to be the truth. Some of which can be taken as only opinion leaving only his take on the subject to fuel his accusations and claims.

Perhaps, but then his argument has been backed up by at least one other. I can't verify exactly when the change took place myself as I havn't been keeping a close eye on their website but I can certainly tell you it still said preorder up to a week after its steam "launch." However recently it was changed doesn't really matter though. They changed it, which only removes an inconsistency in their claims. It doesn't change whether or not their claims were valid to begin with.
Degraiver 6 déc 2012 à 18h57 
Cyborgt a écrit :
Degraiver a écrit :
Evecque a écrit :
There is a difference between true and proven. The lack of proof doesn't make something false, just allows a larger lack of acceptance.
Quite right. But I have heard enough slander from this fellow to peg him as something not trustworthy for me to believe without proof that anything he claims to be the truth. Some of which can be taken as only opinion leaving only his take on the subject to fuel his accusations and claims.

Perhaps, but then his argument has been backed up by at least one other. I can't verify exactly when the change took place myself as I havn't been keeping a close eye on their website but I can certainly tell you it still said preorder up to a week after its steam "launch." However recently it was changed doesn't really matter though. They changed it, which only removes an inconsistency in their claims. It doesn't change whether or not their claims were valid to begin with.
So, what you are saying is the date that the Label was change has no backing to their argument and could still have a standing claim without it? So they are just adding excessive claims to make their statement more slanderous. Interesting.

But even so, Wouldn't a Buy now button make more sense, seeing as you are getting the game when you purchase it. Rather than later on, other than the date you purchased it. (unless you purchased it at 11:59 pm, and then received the game 12:01, but that's insanely fast shipping.)
Dernière modification de Degraiver; 6 déc 2012 à 19h01
Cyborgt 6 déc 2012 à 19h02 
Degraiver a écrit :
Cyborgt a écrit :
Degraiver a écrit :
Evecque a écrit :
There is a difference between true and proven. The lack of proof doesn't make something false, just allows a larger lack of acceptance.
Quite right. But I have heard enough slander from this fellow to peg him as something not trustworthy for me to believe without proof that anything he claims to be the truth. Some of which can be taken as only opinion leaving only his take on the subject to fuel his accusations and claims.

Perhaps, but then his argument has been backed up by at least one other. I can't verify exactly when the change took place myself as I havn't been keeping a close eye on their website but I can certainly tell you it still said preorder up to a week after its steam "launch." However recently it was changed doesn't really matter though. They changed it, which only removes an inconsistency in their claims. It doesn't change whether or not their claims were valid to begin with.
So, what you are saying is the date that the Label was change has no backing to their argument and could still have a standing claim without it? So they are just adding excessive claims to make their statement more slanderous. Interesting.

Read into it whatever you like Degraiver. I'm quite tired of repeating this argument to people who refuse to hear it based on some random technicality they come up with.
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