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Europa Universalis IV >  Workshop > Draíocht's Workshop > Beyond Typus 11.5 > Discussions
Beyond Typus 11.5
Description Discussions34 Comments4066 Change Notes
Omen Jul 13, 2018 @ 7:36am
Mesoamerica & Eastern USA
After the Canadian, western US, and Caribbean portions of the map got the Beyond Typus treatment I started really feeling vanilla eastern US was insufficient. Double the provinces sounds like a good number to shoot for but let's see how the research leads.

There's the issue though of knowing next to nothing about the eastern US in the 1400s and relatively little in the 1500s. Tribes shifted around between spanish expeditions and sustained contact in the 17th century. Plus there's debate about all of it.

One could throw in some of the chiefdoms de Soto for example encountered but they wouldn't resemble the groups we're more familiar with from later history and probably want to see. Placenames changed too. Though the dead expanded natives 2 mod made the creek confederacy in vanilla a formidable nation so maybe that's a good compromise.


Anyway I wanted to say I'm taking a crack at the rest of the US, in light of BT's roadmap not coming back to North America for a while. Here's where I'm at with +3 to LA (7 tot), +4 to MS (9), +5 to AL (10), & +4 to GA (11). Gonna squeeze Appalachicola, Ocale, and Tequesta into Florida, then I research Texas, TN, SC, etc. Then restructure areas, break up colonial and trade regions, pass at correcting events and missions referencing old colonial regions, etc. All the provinces I've made live in buffer #1 right now (PROV4393-4408) and will need to be moved and also made compatible with the China BT submod. Doubt thisll happen before Dharma.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1439643349

Placenames are hard. Paradox uses tribes, but tribes and their towns moved. Rivers don't, but they span multiple provinces usually and their names sometimes are based on tribes that weren't always there (Alabama is a great example because De Soto found the Alibamu people far away from the present Alabama River). I'd love suggestions from anyone there.
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Showing 1-10 of 10 comments
Omen Jul 13, 2018 @ 1:05pm 
I need to rearrange some georgia names, moving Guale back north of Altamaha River. Mocama will stay in Jacksonville, but probably some other timucua-language people in Brunswick GA (either tatacuru or ibihica), in the okefenokee swamp or suwannee headwaters (oconi) (redrawing the borders to shift it east), and at the convergence of the altamaha (utinahica), making those called tatacuru, oconi, and utinahica when timucua-group culture at start and respectively called yamassee okefenokee, and ochese (tentatively). Ochese may get spread a little east.
#1
Chairman Meow (JP) Jul 13, 2018 @ 1:14pm 
Looks like your off to a good start!

When it comes to place names, I have a few things I remember from @Draiochts ramblings in both the Americas and South America;

Provinces should be drawn around a mix of colonial borders, pre-colonial cultural borders and the geography of an area. Rivers are great for provinces, but possibly less so for names.

During the South Africa overhaul, many, many places had "PROVXXXX" for a while as the main issue was finding native names for the area. A province's name should be in a native language, and not in English/Spanish/French etc. If you had a province called "Mississippi", that should be a localised name for English rather than the actual name, (I have little more knowledge than the wiki page does) the province might be called "Mníšošethąka" which is the Dakota name for the river.

Just a few points, but I'll follow this with interest.
#2
Omen Jul 29, 2018 @ 11:49pm 
I'm still working on this, still in the southeast. Expanded province count beyond what I showed above to 13 in LA, 16 in MS, 16 in AL, 17 in GA, 17 in FL. Finished late-start province histories in LA, MS, AL, working on GA and on to FL. New nations so far are Tunica (Quizqui chiefdom to de Soto), Natchez, Alabama, Koasati, Chitimacha, Apalache, Hitchiti, Yamasee (later Yamasee proper and having them represent Guale at early starts), Mocama, Utina, Seminole, Calusa and Yuchi. Rather tha
Show every major creek town, splitting Muskogee to Upper Creeks (primary towns being Coosa st first and Abihka and Tuckabachee later) and Lower Creeks (the Ochese creeks, Coweta and Kashita) with the former integrating the Alabama and the latter integrating the Hitchiti. Creeks are where I'm sti reading and learning.

There are a lot of fake placenames and etymologies there. Sucks trying to show early start dates, and the best I can do is show things as they were when first found
#3
Nikicaga Jul 30, 2018 @ 2:40am 
Nice! And that sounds like a density we might see in Beyond Typus someday! Draiocht already knows a lot about natives in America, so an eventual integration into Beyond Typus shouldn't be too hard.
#4
Draíocht  [developer] Jul 30, 2018 @ 7:21am 
@_Omen_OZ_

Sounds very interesting! I'll look forward to checking it out.

I'd really have to see specifics to know if full integration is possible (not that I'm asking... much to busy at the moment anyway), but regardless I'm glad to have someone else looking at North America!

And yeah, placenames are a challenge in the region. I don't know offhand how much better/worse it is here than any other given region, but one if often left to decide between several bad options... Representing things as they were at first contact is probably going to be our best bet, though. Especially in places where first contact was 16-17th century, as opposed to 18th-19th century.
#5
Omen Jul 30, 2018 @ 8:34am 
I don't know how it is in the PNW, but in the Southeast, lots of native placenames had folk etymologies applied to them later. And then people argue whether they're Cherokee or Muskogee derived. Sautee Nacoochee is an egregious example. In some cases in N Georgia, it does look like Cherokees may haveadaopted Creek placenames.

I've got a good resource for southeastern placenames and historic tribes rendered in Chickasaw modern language. Creek is hard because Richard Thornton (the Mayan-Muskogee ethnogenesis conspiracy theorist) has poisoned the internet on the subject, though the early 20th century research from John Swanton is almost everything else on the subject (which seems pretty good)
#6
Draíocht  [developer] Jul 30, 2018 @ 9:40am 
@_Omen_OZ_

Well the PNW/BC/Cascadia/Columbia actually has it pretty good, with pretty obvious etymologies, rather late and decently documented contact, and some solid archaelogical work done proving certain peoples were in certain regions are certain times, as well as proving in many cases the large hypothetical populations and a certain level of societal advancement. Still a couple outstanding questions, of course, but really better than most anywhere else... not too surprising though, considering the area had a very high pop density and massive cultural variety compared to the rest of the continent.

The NWT, California (east of SNs), & Alaska are usually not too bad, either, usually due to small populations and late first contact, but I faced some similar issues in the US Great Plains, Four Corners, California (proper), & Canada (proper), with Newfoundland being the worst of all. I sympathise with the issues you're facing =D.

Good luck, and I look forward to seeing more ideas & research on the area.

Edit - Typo
Last edited by Draíocht; Jul 30, 2018 @ 9:46am
#7
Gabingston Sep 20, 2018 @ 11:03am 
Originally posted by _Omen_OZ_:
I'm still working on this, still in the southeast. Expanded province count beyond what I showed above to 13 in LA, 16 in MS, 16 in AL, 17 in GA, 17 in FL. Finished late-start province histories in LA, MS, AL, working on GA and on to FL. New nations so far are Tunica (Quizqui chiefdom to de Soto), Natchez, Alabama, Koasati, Chitimacha, Apalache, Hitchiti, Yamasee (later Yamasee proper and having them represent Guale at early starts), Mocama, Utina, Seminole, Calusa and Yuchi. Rather tha
Show every major creek town, splitting Muskogee to Upper Creeks (primary towns being Coosa st first and Abihka and Tuckabachee later) and Lower Creeks (the Ochese creeks, Coweta and Kashita) with the former integrating the Alabama and the latter integrating the Hitchiti. Creeks are where I'm sti reading and learning.

There are a lot of fake placenames and etymologies there. Sucks trying to show early start dates, and the best I can do is show things as they were when first found
Any pictures of the overhaul?
#8
Omen Sep 20, 2018 @ 8:07pm 
Originally posted by Machista9579:
Any pictures of the overhaul?

Sure! I'm slowly working my way around. These are from when I had done LA, MS, AL, FL, GA, & SC.
Area map mode, zoomed in enough to see most province names.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1495958120
Culture (I've split Alibamu & Koasati since then and given Koasati most of the upper TN river valley, going off the theory that Chiaha, Chalahume, etc were Muskogean towns that De Soto visited which soon crumbled and were replaced by Cherokee):
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1495958061
Countries 1444 (since there's no good history before 16th & 17th centuries for most areas, I kinda have to freeze things in place from when they were first encountered by Europeans, maybe extrapolating from some archaeological sites when there's a known historic polity to tie them too. Like De Soto only ever heard about some big badass chief named Quigiltam in the vicinity of Natchez, and they ran the gauntlet past Natchez without exploring anything, but I'm extrapolating from archaeological sites that Natchez held sway over some stuff at that time) (I've added Pensacola, Mocama, Tocobaga, & Mayaca, and I need art for Potano):
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1495958090


I've since added NC, drafted TN, and started poking at AR. But this is after 1.26 so I'm just playing with files without seeing it in game yet until BT10. Here is my province.bmp file overlayed with a transparent rivers.bmp file in GIMP so I can keep my bearings as I carve provinces up.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/465215558523027457/492215784563671041/TNdraft.png

TN is a struggle since western and middle tennessee were essentially depopulated and used as hunting grounds (deer pelt trade) and a military buffer zone between Chickasaw & Cherokee who hated each other and various northern tribes and particularly Iroquois who ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up everyone near them. So I don't have a lot of placenames to work with.
#9
Omen Oct 25, 2018 @ 5:17am 
Just an update that Ive added on TX, AR, TN, NC, plus two more provinces in LA. I'm currently scraping up some art for Atakapans and Wichita subtribes (Taovayas, Tawakoni, Waco, Kichai). Some of my other stuff is just placeholder quality.
#10
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