@Lusitani Kaiser Johan

Some excellent ideas here! I look forward to sifting through it and discussing it more with you. As for the detail in Portugal, I'm rather torn and welcome a local perspective.

Please do forgive the length of this post, but I thought it wise to share my thoughts if the topic is the overhaul of Iberia, but if you'd prefer to suggest & run, I would quite understand. This is as much to open a dialogue with anyone interested, as it is a direct response to you, especially as the specific provinces & borders aren't something I'm able to comment on without quite a bit more research.



From my very prelim & sloppy initial research a couple months ago, It seemed like in the 15th century Portugal was home to around 2,500,000-3,000,000 people spread around 92,000 km2, or a population density of nearly 30 per km2, which is a very substantial figure for the 15th century, and one that compares very favourably to the rest of Iberia and even most of Europe. In fact, if true, it was only exceeded by perhaps 1/2 dozen polities worldwide.

In addition to the population, it appears to have boasted a large number of cities, a highly centralised and efficient government, some of the first universities in Iberia & Europe, great influence in European politics, and booming trade, not to mention its leading role in global exploration or its colonial successes. On paper, it rather seems like a Great Power worthy country in 1444.

Conversely, it also appears to have followed the fortunes of Castile more often than not, been heavily reliant on England and other allies to preserve its independence/autonomy, faded dramatically during the period, never (or rather, very briefly) commanded the same level of prestige and influence as did its neighbours, rivals, and allies, and had smaller urban populations which also grew more slowly in a period where all other nations' were speeding up.

As becomes clear from that (hopefully not too annoying) rant, I'm am uncertain what level of detail to shoot for in Portugal (or Iberia as a whole, for that matter).

Here are a couple thoughts I've had, shared in the interest of establishing my current thoughts for the purpose of being confirmed or corrected:

1) The #1 priority when creating provinces is to allow as many historical borders 1291-1836 as possible, and for all of them to be as accurate as possible at as many points in history as possible. -In Portugal, this is laughably easy, and doesn't necessitate too many provinces.

2) Other priorities and reasons to create new provinces include the accurate depiction of: varried terrain, -Again not a huge issue in Portugal as the majority of the country appears to be somewhat consistantly mildly hilly, mostly arable, & warm-ish.

3) Cultural or religion borders, -So far as I know, a minor issue at best in Portugal.

4) Highly autonomous and important sub-states/regional entities/autonomous cities/local identities, -Again, a minimal issue largely represented by the current outline, Portugal was centralised/unified to a point where very few more provinces are required for this.

5) Or finally very large, important, or significant cities. - Here, Portugual appears to be a very unique case. Along with only Ireland that I've encountered so far, Portugal is a rare example of a nation with a large population, but very few large cities. According to wiki (better information welcome) Lisbon was less than 70k by 1444 and nothing else in Portugal was even 30k, while in the 1291 start Lisbon was a mere 35k and nothing else even 25k. In European terms, this is quite tiny for a European power, and suggests fewer & larger (but higher dev) provinces to me.

All this said, the counter arguments for increasing detail are well known, and Portugal does appear to be a polity worth attention due to its wealth and importance. For this reason, 19 provinces (avg. 145k people per prov at avg. size of 4,850 km2) almost seems low, but probably well suited for the unique circumstances here.

Text-wall aside, I hope you'll allow me to discuss this further with you when I actually begin work! =D

Looks good and seems to represent the major cities as mentioned! However, I have found some administrative divisions dating to 1591 that may be worth using as well as/instead of. In many cases they do corrolate to the map you've shown. It is also worth noting their would be too many of these to add in all as provinces.

https://i.imgur.com/gI8rHYT.gif

Full detail would look something like this - https://imgur.com/a/qpnXjWS

This is 34 provinces so is too much obviously, but it is just another perspective on how Portugal could be divided administratively

Update: Costs of Sagres' Navy School.

@Draiocht
Thanks for your deep analysis of my suggestion. I just would like to include another relevant (at least for me) reason to have more provinces. The troops movement and strategic placement of forts during warfare times. And even addtionally, more options and diversity of trade goods that an area/country/region can have that gives economic complexity to it.
Secondly I understood all your points but I didn´t clearly understand if you think my suggestion is a good fit or too many provinces. But as I said to some provinces, to a couple of them I'm dubious if they (in terms of gameplay) worth to be in the game's map. Those need for sure more discussion, input and feedback from other people.
Finally, yes it's true that the country had always very few population and demographically very homogeneous but those "small" cities had some relevance in terms of internal politics and warfare strategy.

@Chairman Meow (JP)
I didn´t know that map. It looks interesting but for sure 34 provinces is too much.

@Lusitani Kaiser Johan

Sorry if my thoughts didn't come through clearly! I suppose it is a result of me myself being a bit muddled on what the goal is here.

I quite like your draft, which looks very well done. I'm just uncertain if this is too many, too few, or just the perfect number of provinces, so I'm half-asking what you and others think =D. I suppose I was vaguely envisioning ~25 provinces, yet at the same time thinking this might be too many, so 18-20 is probably a very decent number.

Originally posted by Draíocht:

@Lusitani Kaiser Johan

Sorry if my thoughts didn't come through clearly! I suppose it is a result of me myself being a bit muddled on what the goal is here.

I quite like your draft, which looks very well done. I'm just uncertain if this is too many, too few, or just the perfect number of provinces, so I'm half-asking what you and others think =D. I suppose I was vaguely envisioning ~25 provinces, yet at the same time thinking this might be too many, so 18-20 is probably a very decent number.

Well, Portugal was split between a more Urbanised north (Braganca, Porto, Braza, Leira etc) and a more rural south (Beja, Algarve etc). Personally, I think between 22-26 is a good target imho. The map I linked shows the Comarcos, the major administrative seats, plus the more minor seats. However, drawing that out creates 32 provinces ( I put two more in Beja area as the divisions are massive in the south). Portugal was also comparatively richer than any other area in Iberia, maybe barring the Catalonian-Valencian coastline, but even then it is ~5 rich cities with nothing between them.

My convern about comarcas is that they represent administrative seats responsible for a certain territory and not necessarily significant population settlements. E.g. the comarca de Ourique. Ourique around 1500 was a village with 580 people. That map may give some points and ideas, but I don´t feel it represents the concept of province as it is in EU4.

Originally posted by Lusitani Kaiser Johan:

My convern about comarcas is that they represent administrative seats responsible for a certain territory and not necessarily significant population settlements. E.g. the comarca de Ourique. Ourique around 1500 was a village with 580 people. That map may give some points and ideas, but I don´t feel it represents the concept of province as it is in EU4.

Hmm, I can see that arguement however these were the administrative divisions of Portugal within the period, and I do feel that is worth quite a bit. Even if it is poor it is still how the nation was administered. However, adding ~half the tier 2 admin division adds all the extra major cities and brings the province count into the early/mid-20's.

Should we maybe not ballance portugals original "bonus" provinces on gameplay elements also? for example starting portugal is relatively weak, only by collonization is portugal able to conquer interior africa and the ivory coast regions, especially if those regions have strong alliance structures (it might be worth it to fracture african states more). Would a starting portugal not have additional starting provinces to strengthen it in the begin game. Allowing stronger early gains by portugal and then forcing france spain england and the netherlands to recon with portugal before they can start their own imperial empire? I am just spitballing ofcourse my appologies if this contributed nothing.

@asserring

Not at all, spitballing is how many things get done.

Offhand, I'd say that Portugual was an organised, rich, & centralised state that should be able to compete with the African nations -it did historically, though it should also not be such a force as to interfere with Spain, France, or England. Spain treated it variably as a little brother or annoyance to be annexed, England treated it like a march, and France.... probably didn't know it existed.

I'm a bit doubtful about splitting the African nations, as so far as I know, they weren't really politically split very much (well, more accurately they were very split & divided/autonomous, but usually nominally under one government per tag most of the time). Though the pathetic dev the region has in vanilla forced me to give a sizable boost to at least a couple North African nations when I overhauled the provinces, and once I have time for some more step-by-step rebalancing, they will probably lose that additional dev, making them a bit easier for Portugal to handle.

I think another crucial part to Portugal will be missions, decisions, and maybe even NI changes to put them more in Spain's league colonially speaking. Portugal's gains & power were less related to population or land, and more related to organisation, prestige, & trade, which is very imperfectly represented in the sparse events, missions, & decisions they currently have.

Suggestions for Portugal based on the book Conquerors how Portugal forged the first global empire,

Extra information on Portugal/Lisbon;
It is noted in the book that Portugal has less than 1 million inhabitants at the start of the 15th century. It is also stated (100 years later) that in 1500 15% of the Lisbon population was most probably black and Lisbon had the highest number of slaves compared to any other European city. In 1494 a German polymath speculated that the city and the population is greater than his home city of Nuremburg (internet searches provided me with an estimate of Nuremburg of 30.000 in 1500 making it the third largest city in Germany). Portugal lacked a middle class and “brought them in” from Venice, Flanders and Nuremburg.

Navy related,
Portugal invested heavily in its exploration capabilities, its exploration ships were extra decked out with provisions, ropes sails and sailors on these ships the crews were also paid extra. (arguably the justifying the extra 25 % colonial range)
Western ships V.S. Non-western ships – Portuguese ships were nearly impervious against smaller calibre cannons used in the Indian ocean.
(Wikipedia Battle of Due) Portugal with a navy of 9 Nau’s, 6 caravels, 2 galleys and 1 brigantine, against a navy of mamelukes with allies: 10 carracks, 6 galleys, 30 light galleys and 70–150 war-boats. Portugal sinks all Mameluke ships, making Portugal the master of the Indian ocean, and discrediting Egypt as the master of “Muslimhood”. (Is it possible to create a description of 2 tech levels between western and non-western ships (a.k.a. western countries get new ship on dip tech 19 non-western on dip tech 21?)? The battle of Due is in the early 16th century, after which the west is able to keep naval dominance over the world until the late 19th century (think of the opium war and the opening of the Japanese harbours”)).
Portugal invested heavily in foundry of cannons and ship building even before 1500. Revolutionizing for example the low placement of cannons in order to prevent over shooting and allowing the chance of cannon ball skipping.

Seasonable navy.
The Portuguese had to travel between Europe and India before and after monsoon season, the length of the travel meant that it took 2 years for one expedition to return. This meant that the next expedition did not yet benefit from the information gathered by its predecessor.
Difficult upkeep. Ships were meant to last for 4 years. The difficulties of the task to create a Portuguese empire in the east meant that some ships were in the Indian ocean for 9 years. Quite literally falling apart with the crew still on board. This also heavily implied that in ships were built in Portugal and had to travel all the way to India and back. The level of attrition was horrible. (Wikipedia India armada) it is noted that of the 800 ships circa 420 returned, 20 returned without reaching India, 66 were lost, 4 were captured, 6 scuttled and 285 “remained” in India. Personally, I am very dubious about the 285 that remained in India as the picture painted to me seems to imply that the were meant to scuttle troops and equipment until they sank due to naval attrition (quite literally rotted through due to worms). In the travels between 1500 and 1510 81 ships were send in order to shut out the Spaniards from the lucrative spices trade. Of the 5500 Portuguese that went on these expeditions between 1497 and 1504 1800 did not return (1/3).

Although the costs of these ships would justify the increase of costs of navel maintained in the game it is also true that these ships were far more valuable than they are depicted in the game. It is noted the Portuguese were an impervious from naval attacks from the middle east due to the strength of European ships, but they were also used in naval sieges. The 7th armada for example existing out of 11 Nau (big ships (Wikipedia 7th Portuguese India armada)) was able to sack Mombasa, with probably 1000-2000 (20 ships seems to have contained around 1000-2000 man, it is noted on Wikipedia 4th India armada that one scribe states 800 man at arms while the other states 1800 soldiers.) Portuguese against 4000 Swahili troops with 2000 troops coming in as reinforcement. The result of the battle was a Portuguese victory, the sack of Mombasa 5 Portuguese dead and 700 Muslim dead, 200 women and children captured as slave.

Portuguese warfare,
It is noted in the book that the Portuguese were able to win battles vastly outnumbered by African’s and people in south Asia. Comparable to the victories of Spain in the new world. The capture of Malacca was a battle between a 1000 Portuguese with 16 ships (11 big) against 20.000 defenders with support of somewhere between 2000- to 3000 cannons (Wikipedia capture of Malacca). The book point also out that there is a “early romanasc military command” in which you have the knights “lower Portuguese nobility” who are both in control of a group of man as obliged to achieve glory for themselves to prove their social status and gallantry. Noted on the siege of Aden was that the knights were so busy about being the first climbing the walls that the soldiers under their command were in disarray during the whole siege. The siege of Aden was a failure and the Portuguese were both confronted with lack of provisions and disease. The portugese soldiers were also keen to loot, and to "steal" wealth before it would have been piled together and devided "fairly".

There is also a clear implication of a certain “crusader spirit” as embodied by the Portuguese flag with the 5 dots on a cross representing the crucifixion of Jesus. In the same spirit it is interesting to see that in these expeditions’ veterans from the northern African conflicts were employed. It seems like there was a different level of commitment in the warfare. Were non-western countries seemingly did not prescribe to the concept of genocidal warfare the Portuguese seemingly did and did not shy away from using terror tactics (speculation from my part). Before the Portuguese were pushed out of Goa they killed (or tried to kill) its Muslim population, the portugese burned Mombasa and the portugese were equiped with the clay grenades filled with gunpowder. In the face of such heavily armored (plate armor/chain male), armed (most modern guns, grenades and later pikes) and supported by an barage of naval bombardment which the east had not yet seen before, it is not all that strange that the portugese were able to defeat much larger numbers. This is somewhat reminiscent of the behaviour of white colonialists in north America who shocked the natives by their concept of total war. These portugese advantagous cummilated in the saying on the west cost of India:may the wrath of the Franks befall you. Franks was the name for europeans, in this case the portugese.

The success of the spice trade,
De Gama’s journey had returned on investment sixty times. With the crown making million cruzados a year. I think but am not sure if I understood it correctly when looking at a secondary book: Senegambia and the Atlantic Slave Trade, that 5.5 k crusados is equal to around 20 kg of gold thus around 4100 kg of gold did the India armada bring in after cost. It is also noted that the Portuguese brought in the concept of monopoly trading to the Indian ocean (you were only allowed to trade if you had “bought a save conduct pass”. The Portuguese also tended to demand tribute from “subjugated” kingdoms, which the kingdoms refused to pay if they believed they could get away with it.

Suggestions for Portuguese idea group

2 ideas to add and to be replaced after the age of discovery – and a different reward for chosing portugal's era goals.

In name of the crusade “+0.10 infantry combat ability, +0.20 moral and -0.025 discipline” gained when fighting against non-Christians (same mechanic as the crusade granted by the pope) (to be replaced after the age of discovery)
Portugal to gain the ability to raid coasts also to be replaces after the age of discovery.
Reward to chose in age of discovery only for portugal +2 combat wide.

Portugal has not confinced me that they were espacialy capabal of colonizing, i would rather say that they have proven the world to have been masters in a-symetric warfare.

This frontloads Portuguese potential: while still to small to combat in the European theatre, Portugal would have to build up its military and navy in the first 120 years while being hamstrung in the east by its monarchical points (maybe even decrease Portugal’s monarch points by -1 during this period of bonusses.)

edit;

Maybe a "relentless push east choice" giving the player a clame on south-east africa and india between 1500 and 1520 and/or at the cost of 1 or 2 corruption a year. Forcing the player to take the most usefull cities during the time cruch.