IMO, I think that the caucasia culture group should be broken up, and at least 2 new cultures add to the region: Armenian, Cilician, Georgian, and new-culture Udi/Caucasian Albanian could join the Byzantine mega-group, and Alan *could* join "Dagestani" and Circassian as lone members in the rump group

I'll also take the opportunity to say we could/should throw the Assyrians/Yazidis/Syrian and Mesopotamian minorities into this mess as well, since the Assyrian triangle is in close proximity to the region

I think Georgian and Laz should stay in the Caucasian group, I don't know much about the Udi culture to make a comment (never even heard of them until recently), but I'm not opposed to Armenian and Cilician being moved back to the Byzantine Group.

Regarding the Syriac culture, I like to see it in its own group with the culture divided into two, with the other culture being Assyrian. My idea for the division is based on the dialects of Eastern Aramaic (with the culture called Assyrian) and Western Aramaic (Aramean, renamed from Syriac), with the culture group being called Syriac, since the term Syriac is a better catch all term for the non-Arab, non-Greek, and non-Armenian Christians of the Middle East. I attempted to research this issue myself, but I couldn't find anything that made the two dialects different to warrant a division (though my research into the matter was limited). The only evidence I found is that the term Assyrian mainly applies to the people living in the historical region of Assyria (present day south-eastern Turkey, northern Iraq, and eastern Syria), while the non-Arab Christians of Syria (and probably Lebanon) prefer the term Aramean (but I believe this is more of a modern day phenomenon, in an attempt to differentiate themselves from the Assyrians and from Arabs as well.) Though if no division of the Syriac culture occurs, I am also in favor of moving it into the Byzantine group.

As for a possible Yazidi culture, since they're considered an offshoot of the Kurds, I think they should be in the Iranian group. Though I'm not sure if there were enough Yazidis during the start of the game to warrant their inclusion, maybe perhaps one they'll get one province if they're included.

Originally posted by M22:

I think Georgian and Laz should stay in the Caucasian group, I don't know much about the Udi culture to make a comment (never even heard of them until recently), but I'm not opposed to Armenian and Cilician being moved back to the Byzantine Group.

Regarding the Syriac culture, I like to see it in its own group with the culture divided into two, with the other culture being Assyrian. My idea for the division is based on the dialects of Eastern Aramaic (with the culture called Assyrian) and Western Aramaic (Aramean, renamed from Syriac), with the culture group being called Syriac, since the term Syriac is a better catch all term for the non-Arab, non-Greek, and non-Armenian Christians of the Middle East. I attempted to research this issue myself, but I couldn't find anything that made the two dialects different to warrant a division (though my research into the matter was limited). The only evidence I found is that the term Assyrian mainly applies to the people living in the historical region of Assyria (present day south-eastern Turkey, northern Iraq, and eastern Syria), while the non-Arab Christians of Syria (and probably Lebanon) prefer the term Aramean (but I believe this is more of a modern day phenomenon, in an attempt to differentiate themselves from the Assyrians and from Arabs as well.) Though if no division of the Syriac culture occurs, I am also in favor of moving it into the Byzantine group.

As for a possible Yazidi culture, since they're considered an offshoot of the Kurds, I think they should be in the Iranian group. Though I'm not sure if there were enough Yazidis during the start of the game to warrant their inclusion, maybe perhaps one they'll get one province if they're included.

Since you pointed out that the Aramea/Assyrian split seems to be more modern, then maybe one Syriac group with Assyrian would fit best.

Where would Hebrew go?

Originally posted by Smartguy725:

Where would Hebrew go?

Probably in its own group including other Jewish cultures.

Originally posted by Smartguy725:

Originally posted by M22:

I think Georgian and Laz should stay in the Caucasian group, I don't know much about the Udi culture to make a comment (never even heard of them until recently), but I'm not opposed to Armenian and Cilician being moved back to the Byzantine Group.

Regarding the Syriac culture, I like to see it in its own group with the culture divided into two, with the other culture being Assyrian. My idea for the division is based on the dialects of Eastern Aramaic (with the culture called Assyrian) and Western Aramaic (Aramean, renamed from Syriac), with the culture group being called Syriac, since the term Syriac is a better catch all term for the non-Arab, non-Greek, and non-Armenian Christians of the Middle East. I attempted to research this issue myself, but I couldn't find anything that made the two dialects different to warrant a division (though my research into the matter was limited). The only evidence I found is that the term Assyrian mainly applies to the people living in the historical region of Assyria (present day south-eastern Turkey, northern Iraq, and eastern Syria), while the non-Arab Christians of Syria (and probably Lebanon) prefer the term Aramean (but I believe this is more of a modern day phenomenon, in an attempt to differentiate themselves from the Assyrians and from Arabs as well.) Though if no division of the Syriac culture occurs, I am also in favor of moving it into the Byzantine group.

As for a possible Yazidi culture, since they're considered an offshoot of the Kurds, I think they should be in the Iranian group. Though I'm not sure if there were enough Yazidis during the start of the game to warrant their inclusion, maybe perhaps one they'll get one province if they're included.

Since you pointed out that the Aramea/Assyrian split seems to be more modern, then maybe one Syriac group with Assyrian would fit best.

That might be an error on my part, I should have clarified on what I meant on the Aramean/Assyrian differences. There were still differences between those who spoke eastern and western Aramaic; kinda like how there were differences between say Umbrian and Neapolitan. I was trying to determine what the Aramaic speakers of Syria and Lebanon refered to themselves during the period of EU4, I hope that makes sense. There are mods for EU4 (MEIOU) and CKII which show a separate Aramean culture, and I am still in favor of splitting the Syriac culture into two cultures; Aramean and Assyrian. Assuming the culture doesn't split, as I once said to Draíocht, the name should remain Syriac since its a better word that refers to all of them.

Originally posted by M22:

Originally posted by Smartguy725:

Since you pointed out that the Aramea/Assyrian split seems to be more modern, then maybe one Syriac group with Assyrian would fit best.

That might be an error on my part, I should have clarified on what I meant on the Aramean/Assyrian differences. There were still differences between those who spoke eastern and western Aramaic; kinda like how there were differences between say Umbrian and Neapolitan. I was trying to determine what the Aramaic speakers of Syria and Lebanon refered to themselves during the period of EU4, I hope that makes sense. There are mods for EU4 (MEIOU) and CKII which show a separate Aramean culture, and I am still in favor of splitting the Syriac culture into two cultures; Aramean and Assyrian. Assuming the culture doesn't split, as I once said to Draíocht, the name should remain Syriac since its a better word that refers to all of them.

Yes, you're right in retrospect. Historical Immersian Project has one Assyrian culture with 2 Nestorian branches (West and East Syriac). I'm one to say that the Assyrian differences should be cultural as opposed to religious, though.

Also, after doing research, I don't think Caucasian Albanians have as much evidence for a province in 1444 as I thought. Maybe one once we get the timeline extended into the 14th century...

Originally posted by Procyon:

Originally posted by Smartguy725:

Where would Hebrew go?

Probably in its own group including other Jewish cultures.

I agree- Hebrew, Sephardic and Ashkenazi should have their own Jewish culture group. With the Balkan overhaul, Thessalonica would be Sephardic in later startdated and have an event to flip it once Spain expels it's Jews, while a potential PLC overhaul may bring an Ashkenazi province or two, with them also being given as event advisers across Central and East Europe.
As for the Assyrians, I hope their culture and an independant theocracy are implemented, as per the EU4 suggestions thread. https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/independent-assyrian-tribes.1046634/
Speaking of the area, getting some more Kurdish emirates in addition to Bitlis and Hisn Kayfa would be nice, such as Bohtan and Bahdinan, and perhaps a few minor ones
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kurdish_states_1835.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_chiefdoms
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kurdish_dynasties_and_countries

I'll probably be putting these "changes" in a BT patch as my way of contributing to the development of Beyond Typus. So far the changes I'll implement include:

• Moving Cilician and Armenian to the Byzantine group
  
• Adding Alan as a culture and tag
  
• Adding Hebrew as a culture (group name:
  
• Adding Syriac as a group with Assyrian as the first new culture in said group

Only thing I'm not sure on is names and tag names, as well as what to do with the provinces that are already Syriac (and Lebanon, for that matter). The Assyrian tribes will be added later once that area will be overhauled, but an Assyrian tag will be added by me

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Azeri_language "The Turkic Azerbaijani language only began replacing the Iranian Old Azeri language with the advent of rule of the Safavid dynasty, when hundreds of thousands of Qizilbash Turkic peoples from Anatolia arrived into Azerbaijan, being forced out by the Ottoman Sultan Selim I with more to follow. Earlier, many Turkic speaking nomads had chosen the green pastures of Azerbaijan, Aran and Shrivan for their settlement as early as the advent of the Seljuq dynasty. However, they only filled in the pasturelands while the farmlands, villages and the cities remained Iranian in language and culture. The linguistic conversion of Azerbaijan went hand in hand with the conversion of the Azeris to Twelver Shia Islam. By the late 1800s, the Turkification of Azerbaijan was near completion, with Iranian speakers found solely in tiny isolated recesses of the mountains or other remote areas (such as Harzand, Galin Ghuya, Shahrud villages in Khalkhal and Anarjan)."

Best I could do on a "smartphone"

Originally posted by Nikicaga:

Thessalonica would be Sephardic in later startdated and have an event to flip it once Spain expels it's Jews, while a potential PLC overhaul may bring an Ashkenazi province or two

Unfortunately I doubt Jews formed the majority in any particular area until the late 1800s. There could be some kind of alt-history "invite Jews to settle" decision to convert provinces or something like that though

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SStYYvS58PE/Uh5S-v4mRlI/AAAAAAAACEk/FnfsnJLJlmg/s1600/jews4.JPG

Progress: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1317545412

Maine reason I chose to highlight the Syriac provinces is that I don't know what to do with them. I've added an Assyrian culture (in its own group) and tag, but I still don't know what to do with Syriac and LEB (Lebanon's tag)

@Procyon

I'm not here (as I really have no background knowledge to speak of here, and I'd rather not stick my foot in it before doing some dedicated research) but the BtPL team members were discussing some Jewish events a while back very much along those lines. I did most of the coding for them, but I was never able to get it to a point where I felt like incorporating it into BT (at least not yet). The whole chain would, in theory, represent Jewish explusions and take a nod from CK2's approach, as well as open up some alt-history scenarios.

The problem is minorities all over the world were being shoved about like this, and I hesitate to do a mechanic like this for just one group when the concept could apply to so many others. I planned to look into just how large the Jewish population of Thessalonica (and one or two other provinces) by our end date to see how reasonable this would be (strong minority? plurality? majority?) and if there is ample evidence for more than perhaps one or two provinces with Jewish religion and culture, I figured I might look into incorprating the mechanic more seriously.

@Nikicaga

The link you provided was originally posted by Smartguy725 in the research thread, but its good to have a refresher on the subject, building upon the link provided, I believe that the Hakkari Mountain Wasteland should go. As far as more Kurdish tags, that probably won't happen until the overhaul gets to Mesopotamia and Persia. Regarding Jewish cultures, Voltaire's Nightmare added several provinces in Eastern Europe that have a majority Jewish/Ashkenazi culture, so anything is possible.

@Smartguy725

I actually have never played HIP, the CKII mod I was talking about was Project Augustus, and it had the Assyrian culture in Mesopotamia and the Aramean culture in the Levant. And I'm not sure what you mean by "2 Nestorian branches", the only ones who were Nestorians (Church of the East) were the Assyrians. Those who were most likely referred to as Arameans were part of the Maronite Church (Lebanese Catholics), Syriac Orthodox Church (part of the Oriental Orthodox churches, aka Miaphysite), and the Syriac Catholic Church (formed in the 17th century); as far as I know, they were never adherents to the Eastern Orthodox church. Also the MEIOU mod had three different cultures last I checked, Aramean, Assyrian, and Syriac.

I still think that the Syriac group should have two cultures (Aramean and Assyrian), and the primary tag for the Aramean culture can be Aramea or Aram (ancient biblical name for modern day Syria). Though if you settle with only Assyrian for the time being, since you're unsure of what to do with the Syriac cultured provinces in the Levant, they can be renamed Levantine; and the Lebanon tag can remain.

Regarding Hebrew, the language was long extinct by the time of EU4, the culture can reemerge by decision or event if Jerusalem is held by a Jewish nation. The Jewish cultures can be Ashkenazi (Central and Easten European Jewish), Sephardic (Spanish Jews), and maybe Mizrahi (Middle East Jews), with the overall group called Israelite. That being said, since there are no Jewish tags (maybe one in Ethiopia, but I'm not sure), adding Jewish cultures is not really a high priority to me. Unless you can do it with events and decisions.