Star Ruler 2

Star Ruler 2

Rising Stars (old)
Eruannon Dec 27, 2014 @ 10:51am
GateWorld Improvement thread
Regarding Gate World - another feedback, took a liberty to make it in separate post, due to sheer size of this explanation- for level V resource - it's immensely underpowered.
Let us relist benefits of Gate World:
- 2048 Support Capacity, unexportable
- +10 Pressure capacity
- Acts as Gate
- Acts as Slingshot
- +5 to all pressures [30 total pressure added]
Problems with GateWorld:
- -10 loyalty
- -3 max population

Before we get to sum up these effects, lemme provide you with some pen and paper, experimental data. BASE stats of each tier in format : Tier [roman numerals+0] | max pop | base pressure capacity, this is the set for all tiers:
0 | 1 | 0
I | 3 | 1
II | 8 | 14
III | 16 | 32
IV | 24 | 60
V | 50 | 90

In essence - one gets over 10% of base capacity for tier V planet on gateworld. Sound fun, right?
Well, that's the problem - it only sounds nice.

Here's the trick - Population and Overpopulation. Overpopulation is provided by economic materials and rice; it 'increases pop over maximum limit'. What is difference between Overpopulation and population from +1/tech level? Actually - two:
#1 - overpopulation counts only on target planet
#2 - overpopulation requires external resource

What is the effect of overpopulation on Tier V planet?
+3 pressure cap per population unit.

Luckily if pushed below base population, at tier V planet, you lose only 1 pressure cap per population.
In essence: the following is true for GateWorld

it adds NOT 10 pressure cap, it adds 7 pressure cap. The problem? it adds only +1 pressure cap with each tech level, trying to 'catch to' base pressure.
In other words - at level 3 increase in populatoin; pressure bonus is only +1. [much below even simple rice]
Let us break down the benefits of GateWorld now then:

+2048 support capacity - part of Antimatter [Tier III], second part is 400% efficiency for all ships in orbit;
+10 pressure capacity -> changed into +7/+5/+3/+1 Support capacity depending on tech level, lower benefit - higher tech level [3-1 Rice, tier 0 food]
+Gate - useless unless you have Gate tech avaliable - otherwise - replaceable by 300k build cost +50k maintenance and 1/4th of FTL world [Tier II], that provides also energy and research pressure
+5 to all pressure levels: bottom line - 5x Salt, combination of Tier 2 resources, of at most 2 per pressure; total - [bottom line] - 12 Tier 1 planets;
+Slingshot - replaceable by 400k/200k fling beacon

Directly Imported Goods to level V:
- 1 Tier III resource
- 5 Tier II Resources
- 5 Tier I Resources
- 4 Food resources [tier 0]
- Water [Tier 0]
[16 planets]

TOTAL planets to bring planet to level V, including internal steps:
- 1 Tier III resource
- 6 Tier II resources
- 13 Tier I resources
- 32 Food resources
- 21 Water resources
[73 Resources total]

To compare:
Pressure key:
C - Credits, income
I - Influence
R - Research
L - Labor
E - Energy
D - Defense

Any tech 3 resource:
16 pressure of specific resource

UNIQUE bonus:
- Antimatter - E - +2048 support, 400% efficiency
- Corinium - C - +100% base pressure capacity [by tier from tier I : 1/14/32/90]
- Exotic Matter - R - Instant building, -2 mil maintenance for buildings
- Hydrocarbons - L - +40% labor generation
- Illinum - I - +100% pressure generated by level 0 resources [note: not limited to native only]
- Kalsunim - D - Labor on target starts generating defense

Cost to level up planet to level III:
- 1 tier II resource
- 2 tier I resource
- 3 food resources
- 1 water resource
Adds up to:
- 1 Tier II resource
- 3 Tier I resources
- 7 food resources
- 5 water resources
totals to - 16 resources.

We can create 2 fully leveled up tier III planets from level V planet, and we'll have lots of planets spare.

Level IV - 'Wonder Level':
One of few, unique, powerful empire wide benefits, each is unique universe wide:
- +40% to empire fleets' efficiency
- all proposals start with 6 support [equivalent of 2 cards or 1 good card]
- Full, permanent, instant sight in the galaxy with no limitations to trade.
- Slow, passive takeover of other planets

Requirements?
- 4 level II resources
- 4 level I resources
- 4 Food resources
- 1 Water resource

Totals to:
- 4 level II resources
- 8 level I resources
- 20 food resources
- 13 Water resources


Original post:

And finally - Expanse 'Homeworld' - center system in the Expanse, will leave out overpopulation pressure bonuses for level IV, as I do not have full research regarding it:
'Home'
- 2 copies of tier ancient city - 16I, 4R total
- Oil - 2C, 2E
- 2 copies Rice +2 overpopulation total
- Water
Totals to:
16I, 4R, 2C, 2E, +5 pressure capacity at tier II, +7 at Tier III, +6 at Tier V

Two planets:
- Tier I resource [3-5 pressure]
- Food resource
- Water

in essence - 3 planets, each leveled to their necessary tier [1 T2, 2 T1], free of charge without negative parts.
Riiight : Defended by <1 mil total strenght fleet.
For comparision - GateWorld has 1 22mil str fleet.


Resource Comparision by sum of pressures:
Tier 1 - 3-5, some P3 have specials
Tier 2 - 4*-10, 10 is unexportalbe [city], 4s have additional, unique, powerful benefits [+50% growh +1cultivation card per time or +1 FTL/s], other than these - 7-9]
Tier 3 - 16 pressure, massive unique bonuses, as listed above
With difference between tiers being at over 1.4 pressure Tier 4 would have around 28.8 pressure, tier V over 40 pressure alone.

What do you make of it is yours; in my opinion GateWorld is immensly underpowered;

TL:DR - GateWorld - "heavily contested" is no more than just a fluff text without any viable reason for it to become reality, short of bragging rights perhaps.

Working currently on reccomendation as potential replacement for GateWorld
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Showing 1-12 of 12 comments
Eruannon Dec 27, 2014 @ 10:53am 
Just curious - is it possible to lock subsystem avaliability to specific feature/planet?
Or resource for that matter.

quick draft would be to tie avaliability of Remnant Shields and Armor with avaliability of Level V resource, say sort of 'Remnant Production Facilities', one could limit production of Remnant fitted ships to that specific world alone, even with massive increase in costs; this would provide ships with permanent upgrades, thus making this world both unique and valuable, and with fleets able to defeat 20-ish mil defense ships it's hard to claim it's not end game. Other requirements could also be made, though just ability to initiate production of such things could be wondrous in scope.
Will calculate advantages of Remnant equipment VS standard equipment shortly.

Correct me if I'm wrong - but isn't Remnant Armor inferior to Nanotech armor? DT of the former seems to be impractically high when using similar size ships. I do not have any details regarding damage mitigation though; It does seem to be issue of 'too impractical to use on big ships', even though damage reduction of both is same.

Remnant shields are indeed superior to standards, +25% to standard shields regen and [approx] +50% to shield HP for convariant edition.
Last edited by Eruannon; Dec 27, 2014 @ 11:13am
Alexander the Great  [developer] Dec 27, 2014 @ 11:21am 
I read your post Almaravion .I originaly planned the gateworld as a LVL3 special resource cause the lvl5 was not implemented in the engine.

What u suggest on the second post is one interesting thing i already considered.I think its available as easy to do in the editor and i cosidered that idea .I like it a lot to be honest.

Another idea to improve the Gateworld could be giving free FTL inside the system.
On thing u did not noticed is that the Gateworld is granted the biggest planet in the Galaxy the size is liike 25x17 when the hw for example is 17x10.

As dalo say u the Gate World is an artificial resource so its one of the special planets u can build wonders without destroying the Resource.

Anyway i am very surprised for your comprehension on game mechanics you have only played 50 hours (steam counter).

Thanks !

PD:The armor is getting a rework in this moments trying to give all armorss a place.
Last edited by Alexander the Great; Dec 27, 2014 @ 11:29am
Dalo Lorn  [developer] Dec 27, 2014 @ 11:30am 
Unfortunately, I strongly question the possibility of implementing the 'Remnant Production Facilities'. At best, we might be able to make the resource permanently unlock the Remnant defenses once leveled to level 5, but that would render salvaging the Guardian pointless.

Mind you, we could give the planet a more powerful variant of 'Ancient Shipyard'.
Alexander the Great  [developer] Dec 27, 2014 @ 11:31am 
I think that cam done using abilitys (llike the commerce station) .Timed ones that spawn the ships before after the timer .Will be tricky tho.
Last edited by Alexander the Great; Dec 27, 2014 @ 11:32am
Dalo Lorn  [developer] Dec 27, 2014 @ 11:32am 
Originally posted by Alarcarr:
I think that cam done using abilitys (llike the commerce station) .Timed ones that spawn the ships before after the timer .Will be tricky tho.

That wouldn't allow the player to design his own Remnant-enhanced ships, though.

Edit: In any case, with all the localization I have to catch up on, it could be a day or two before the next patch - and that's assuming Alar doesn't add any new stuff I have to localize.
Last edited by Dalo Lorn; Dec 27, 2014 @ 11:34am
Alexander the Great  [developer] Dec 27, 2014 @ 11:34am 
Yes ...... right .AFAIK now what the engine allow is unlock subsystems based on conditions and blockk them again if they are not fullfilled
.
Last edited by Alexander the Great; Dec 27, 2014 @ 11:35am
Eruannon Dec 27, 2014 @ 11:46am 
Regarding Wonder - it might be useful to make it clear for players that GateWorld modifier is NOT considered 'natural/native' resource, as [again, didn't check it on all planets] it seems to be unique in that it is 'resource' in game, shown as 'native' that is not removed when building wonder. It might also be useful to add tier V to GateWorld as note as well.

I must admit that grids on planets are not the first things I take too much of a note, as I tend to focus more on global scale than individual planets, with exception of border worlds, and some minor other focii.

As per FTL - within system free FTL, at scale of empire needed to even get full access to GateWorld seems to be slightly redundant, unless you make a massive detours. If you'd like I can provide full list of resources, their benefits and pressures. With price of research, and benefits - Hyperdrive - would give little speed increase or hindrance within system, Gate network is rarely expanded inside system itself, due to costs involved, slingshot - one way, great, but again - problem with ranging, woundn't give much benefit inside. Slipstream - well, this one would benefit most from free FTL inside galaxy core.

I am not sure if removing population penalty wouldn't actually already put it into level where it starts to be immensely useful [having now in mind what I did not notice - it is not removed with wonder], though wonders might be a small problem to actually use in galactic core.

Guardian of Core system has 22 mil estimated strenght, with well skilled players, before one gets to level of 22 mil, wonders are mostly already in place, though I'll have it tested just in case.

As this is gate world - perhaps drive specific bonuses could be of value? e.g. increased speed for hyperdrive or reduced cooldown for it? reduced maintenance for gates? increased time for slipstream? [note to self: get more experience with slingshots].

In regards to pressure bonus with -3 pop penalty - once data is calculated it sounds more like a mockery, hey dude you get 'whole' 1 pressure benefit, 1 whole percent.

And thank you for your compliment, I tend to dig deep into mechanics of games I play so... ;P


Plus a question - is it possible to trigger 'locking' unlocked subsystem in other players' tech tree?
Dalo Lorn  [developer] Dec 28, 2014 @ 4:45am 
Resource artificiality: I might go into the descriptions, see if it can be made a bit clearer that it's an 'Artificial' resource.

Hyperdrive: Intergalactic jumps might be made a bit cheaper by free FTL, though anyone with a decent batch of FTL storage (or even just all the FTL Containment techs!) can handle such distances with ease; not to mention that wormholes are a much faster method of travel. Besides which, why would anyone use hyperdrives when he has fling beacons in the origin system?

Gates: Honestly, if you're not using gates by the time you reach ABEM's endgame, you're probably playing on a small map and expanding your empire linearly. That said, the Gateworld's benefits are slim to none in that regard unless you're playing with a high-spacing map; if you need a gate in that system, you'll place it there yourself. If you don't, you won't have one.

Fling: This, in my opinion, is the really important part of the Gateworld's FTL abilities. You can send ANY ship or even a blueprinted orbital (in other words, an orbital designed by the player as opposed to the 'hardcoded' orbitals in data/orbitals) to ANY location in the galaxy within 10 (25 if you include charge time) seconds, and the cost of that launch is dictated solely by the scale of the fleet you're sending. Making it free might sweeten the deal a bit, but it wouldn't become a meaningful bonus until your ship scales were in the planetary ranges.

Slipstream: You are correct in assuming that slipstream users would benefit the most from free FTL. The greater the distance - and the duration during which the slipstream tear stays open - the greater the FTL cost. You could create quasi-permanent wormholes if you made your generator big enough, but the FTL cost would be somewhat prohibitive. This, especially coupled with gate constructors, could be a major bonus on large maps. I did come up with an idea, though, while reading some of the scripts. It is possible to give the Gateworld the ability to periodically open a temporary slipstream tear to a random destination, sort of like those slipstream anomalies you can sometimes encounter. (Except, of course, for the part where the Gateworld's tears don't stay open forever.)

Population penalty: Removing that one could be handy, yes. Unfortunately, you are right that by the time the Guardian can reasonably be killed (Alar took nearly 2 hours against a couple of Savage AI, and I think it was a size-10k ship back then, despite my belief that it should be 5k), most or all wonders will have been constructed.

Drive-specific bonuses: I can easily increase hyperdrive speed, slipstream times are just a little bit more work than that, but I'm not sure I could do anything for gates or fling beacons without rewiring the FTL scripts. (Which, as with all scripting, I'm somewhat unwilling to do until I'm reasonably certain that updates to the scripts I'm modifying will be infrequent. I wish the system allowed for additional script files to override parts of the game's scripts with... but the closest I've gotten to that sort of modularity was with the combat scripts.)

Pressure bonus: I will admit, I didn't really pay too much attention to the results of the implementation. Most of my work with the Gateworld was writing up the description, and I wasn't aware of the way those two bonuses interact, or I'd have asked if this was intended.

Locking subsystems and externally manipulating the tech tree are (particularly when targeted at other players) beyond the reach of the hooks we currently have at our disposal. Heck, if I could, I'd have made it so the FTL traits unlocked their respective techs by default! The hooks in question are probably simple enough that I could write them up, but again, I'm dependent on what the devs can give us until that code stabilizes a bit. (Or we decide to permanently branch off from the SR2 codebase altogether, but that's a bit of a major move and not to be done lightly in my opinion.)

Edit: I just found something. Apparently, a tech node can be made to require a specific unlock tag. I could make a secondary method of unlocking Remnant technology available to whatever player manages to get the Gateworld to T5. If this were the case, and it worked correctly, the Guardian would become a mere shortcut to Remnant tech, not the only means of unlocking it. Mind you, there's no way to force the player to KEEP the Gateworld at T5 once complete. I think. I'll have to look into that one.
Last edited by Dalo Lorn; Dec 28, 2014 @ 6:48am
Eruannon Dec 28, 2014 @ 8:26am 
I did talk with Alarcarr yesterday - regarding tech node or subsystem - a thought - could subsystems be given specific tag, e.g. 'remnant tech', that would increase cost of that subsystem few hundred/thousand fold, and gateworld [or for that matter - remnant production facilities as alternate TV resource] modify that cost by the reverse? [i.e. if 1000x cost, it's modify cost of 'remnant tech' subsystems by 0.001 when controlled], thus while not directly forbidding the construction - making it just 'not feasible'?

Additionally - Alarcarr mentioned there's possibility to lock access to subsystem, if specific conditions are not met; would it be possible to relock subsystem, if researched by tech tree, if gateworld is not controlled? recapturing of that world would give further benefit to 'old' owners.
Dalo Lorn  [developer] Dec 29, 2014 @ 3:32am 
I'm... not sure.
I think that unlocking the option to research remnant technologies should be done as the gate world levels up. e.g level x allows remnant technology a, level x+1 remnant technology b, level +2 remnant technology three. This way the technology benefit is not given until the gate world's level is invested in. If the gate world has to be level 6 to receive the armor tech then losing it after unlocking the tech will be a major loss even without tech relocking.
Dalo Lorn  [developer] Feb 2, 2015 @ 1:04am 
Honestly, I've been thinking about this, but there are some tests I have to run before I can consider an implementation of this concept.

That said, we'd probably just drop both armor and shield techs into level 6, and pull Recall down to level 5.
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