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Counter-Strike 2 >  Workshop > FMPONE's Workshop > Thera > Discussions
Thera
Description Discussions45 Comments1004 Change Notes
✚Jenny Talia✚ Dec 27, 2023 @ 10:11pm
Amazing!! But is it supposed to be like this?
I loved everything about this map, but isn't it a lot CT sided? I only tested alone for now and I'm genuinely trying to understand what you had in mind while making this beauty.

- There are 3 choke points from what I saw: Mid, Upper A and Lower A; but excluding Lower A I found the other 2 heavily CT sided for some reasons. Let's do it point by point.

1. Lower A
For me, the timing leads to a fair battle here. Both T and CT gather in the underground together. A tight space with some cheeky corners for both sides. Taking from the objective of the game, it's easier for the CTs here, as with just 1 smoke or molly you can halt a fast play, 'cause there's only too much space here.

2. Mid (heavy impact on how the map probably will play)
The CTs get here with a huuuuge timing advantage. Even with a bad respawn is possible to get in window and throw a deep molly very early in the round. Mid is the only path to both entrances to B Site and Upper A, so it might be possible to just play 1 Lower A and stack 4 Mid as CT in the early round to get total control of this important space. 1 deep molly, 1 shorter molly and 1 molly to the right side of Mid and the Ts can't do much. I already found a quick smoke from T spawn to block vision on upper Mid but without GREAT utility usage and teamwork there's no way Ts can do anything here early.

3. Upper A
If the CTs get Mid control, this is just shut for the Ts. There's the balcony, from where the Ts can fight with the A player, but it's not hard at all to molly it early from A site. The Lower A player can easily molly balcony and be in time for the lower fight. If the Ts want to get out of balcony, or they'll take a lot of damage from the molly or they will need to blaze past through the little window with a precise crouch+jump that is easy to miss.

My general thoughts: If everything I said is intentional and planned from the start, it'll be a high skill-ceiling map and utility usage on T side will be mandatory to even have a chance to fight. If it ever makes to the map pool rotation (I really hope it does), pro matches will be fun as hell to watch with how technical it can be.
But viewing from a Casual player POV, it won't be any fun. Without a closed team, playing as T will be so stressful; Solo-Queuers will suffer a lot if they want to play this map (we all know how random teammates might be).

My personal opinion: I loved every aspect of it as it is: timings, layout, textures, lighting... But I think some things can be changed to balance things out a bit:
1. The window at the balcony on Upper A could be bigger (in height, only) to alow getting out of it without bhoping or crouching, expanding a little bit the possibilities for the Ts.
2. Get rid of the headglitch angle for the CTs on Mid-A Connector, over the trash bin and behind the wall. If there's a CT on this angle, it is almost impossible to see from far distance as it is in the Mid fight for the Ts.
Last edited by ✚Jenny Talia✚; Dec 27, 2023 @ 10:25pm
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Showing 1-5 of 5 comments
FMPONE  [developer] Dec 27, 2023 @ 11:03pm 
Everything you said is legitimate. In theory. But this is where I think your theory breaks down: play is never perfect. People make mistakes. Opportunities are created.

In terms of your first recommendation, this is already planned. So good call. In terms of your second, I will have to see how much this presents a real problem in games. My instinct is that it's very situational and probably not that bad.

This is high level feedback and I think you're on the right track, but when you insert actual human beings into these geographic discussions of gameplay, that changes everything, and that's my experience with the map in testing and that is what I factored in as a "margin of error". At high skill levels, I agree the map will demand a lot of Ts, and if they lose 40-60 or so because of it, so be it. I think at lower levels of gameplay CTs will struggle to exploit their advantages in every case.

This is a discussion about degrees of advantage and whether they exceed what one would consider acceptable in a competitive setting. I think we're well within that range, that is my operating belief, and I expect it will be born out when you start looking at matches and they're relatively balanced.

If the statistics aren't looking relatively balanced, I believe there are good options with this layout.
Last edited by FMPONE; Dec 27, 2023 @ 11:14pm
#1
InC.RevR Dec 28, 2023 @ 12:13am 
The fact that you have to pass through mid to get to B site shocked me when I discovered that. It is a nobrainer choice for CTs to go to the mid window and take free HPs or frags from Ts. So Ts will have to use a smoke to get past mid to B. Hopefully we get a dedicated B long or a double door on T side mid so Ts can have a chance to get to B without having to be shot.

Also, the T spawn pool is innovative but that eliminates Ts' chances to lineup a quick smoke during freeze time and throw it right after round starts. So another CT-sided point here.
#2
InC.RevR Dec 28, 2023 @ 9:09am 
Originally posted by FMPONE:
Everything you said is legitimate. In theory. But this is where I think your theory breaks down: play is never perfect. People make mistakes. Opportunities are created.

If Ts have to count on ALL CTs to make mistakes and/or have poorer understanding for them to win, then the balance is already broken. 1 fairly experienced CT at the mid window will be enough to make it hard for Ts to get to B or mid.

I dont know what's your goal for this map really. If it's more about showing off CS2's new technology or your techniques then never mind. But if you ever wanted to make it competitive, I guess the B passage has to change somehow.
#3
FMPONE  [developer] Dec 28, 2023 @ 9:13am 
Originally posted by InC.RevR:
Originally posted by FMPONE:
Everything you said is legitimate. In theory. But this is where I think your theory breaks down: play is never perfect. People make mistakes. Opportunities are created.

If Ts have to count on ALL CTs to make mistakes and/or have poorer understanding for them to win, then the balance is already broken. 1 fairly experienced CT at the mid window will be enough to make it hard for Ts to get to B or mid.

I dont know what's your goal for this map really. If it's more about showing off CS2's new technology or your techniques then never mind. But if you ever wanted to make it competitive, I guess the B passage has to change somehow.

I don't think that the discussion as posed matches up with the reality in practice. That's my point. You can talk about "just put a CT mid window" but there are a lot of ways that CT can be eliminated. There are economic factors, very simple smokes to throw, window can get outplayed by a T awper or rifler, etc.

I certainly think Thera is a map that presents CTs with good starting map control, but that map control tends to be quite brittle, perhaps more so than on other maps. CTs certainly have a good hand starting out, but I think that can crumble very quickly and snowball into a great round for Ts. CTs will have to have a strategy going into each round.
#4
✚Jenny Talia✚ Dec 28, 2023 @ 9:15am 
Originally posted by InC.RevR:
The fact that you have to pass through mid to get to B site shocked me when I discovered that. It is a nobrainer choice for CTs to go to the mid window and take free HPs or frags from Ts. So Ts will have to use a smoke to get past mid to B. Hopefully we get a dedicated B long or a double door on T side mid so Ts can have a chance to get to B without having to be shot.

Also, the T spawn pool is innovative but that eliminates Ts' chances to lineup a quick smoke during freeze time and throw it right after round starts. So another CT-sided point here.

The smoke I found right outside T spawn works well with the timing. CTs get to mid at roughly 10 seconds into the round, Ts at around 12~13. The mid smoke from outside T Spawn I found blooms out within 10 seconds from the start, so it'll bloom at the same time CTs get to mid. But since the CTs have the timing advantage, they can break it with an HE and get clear vision of the Ts passing mid. As I said, in high level CTs will have the same thinking to get control of mid. Maybe at lower levels the map will be balanced due to the lack of game mechanics understanding. I want this so bad on competitive to see how it'll go.
#5
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