Greetings. I'd first like to say this is a fine idea for a mod.

As for the suggestions, however:

> In the mod, only the Upper Class may provide Tax Income:
- This is exactly the 1-1 yearly tax received from the vanilla game, based on your province's Base Tax. Now, to make it clear, before Serfdom is abolished with that lovely decision you added, this makes sense. However, after you've abolished serfdom, it is very strange that it persists in this manner. It would be interesting seeing the peasantry also contribute some manner of taxation to the realm, even if they are the backbone of the other classes' growth and potential. If at all possible, reduce the amount of tax they make to something *very* small, compared to the nobles.
- It should also be mentioned that I have little problems with the Middle Class, as base EU4's production income is already superior to tax, so all's well there.

> I can enjoy innovativeness as much as the next man, but the sheer amount of it large countries can get from that +0.3% per each Upper Class pop is a tad ridiculous. In the start of the game, as England, you start off with a +25% gain.
- I do like the idea of specific pops giving out something extra though. The following are just some suggestions, I'd be happy to know of other possibilities:
» Local Dev Cost Reduction (due to the rich's investments)
» Local Institution Spread
» Local Trade Power Increase

> The idea of forts acting as center of food storage and supplies is *genius*. The concept is great, but the application is set forward a bit too powerful, and makes one of your other ideas (the edict to reduce food shortages) irrelevant:
- It would make sense if each fort decreases the amount of devastation by a modifier that multiplies with other existing factors (or simply gives the same flat amount of the edict, -0.05), not a flat -0.83 in every single state's province with an active fort in said state. It should be said that, each extra fort over 1 only gives 50% of the benefits of the previous one, though -0.83 is too powerful in maintaining food. Each forts costs 200 ducats to build and 1 ducat to maintain. The edict that reduces devastation by 0.05, in large states, can cost between 0.8 and 1.6 ducats (and this is in the early game, in ~12-15 dev provinces). So the edict is only viable for small states. For larger states, just build a fort and watch the pops skyrocket-

>The disaster finale of Abolishing Serfdom is strange: after you defeat several noble armies, many of your owned provinces will convert up to 3 Upper Class pops to 3 Lower Class Pops... My question is why? Yes, the nobles loose their source of income, but why do you gain Lower pops and not get more out of your pops or gain 1-2 middle class pops, to represent the new stratification of society and the evolving of the burgher class? This point is further infuriating given the point above (of the upper class being the only tax income), as the only thing that you are doing is gaining yourself a better base to build up More population in the future. However, you are killing your tax income and crippling yourself, if you have no other income. Which is strange, given that now you have an array of freemen and citizens who do not pay taxes.


This is one man's opinion. I'm curious to hear either the developer's or other's responses. Happy map painting, everyone.

That's a long and also very good comment! @Friendly Doctor

I can just agree with many points you brought up.
But in my opinion, the Tax money you gain from the upper class is really minor and not even usefull the money you get from the middle class is far superior in a gameplay sense it should be somehow balanced in a way that upper class give much more money.

The comment above me also stated that the middleclass should give a very small amount of tax in context to the upper class and i also think that would be a better aspect.
What i want to say is, that the tax income should be somehow changed in a way that the upperclass give more tax or that the middle class should also give some tax.

Originally posted by Friendly Doctor:

- It should also be mentioned that I have little problems with the Middle Class, as base EU4's production income is already superior to tax, so all's well there.

I also think that this is in a good state!

Originally posted by Friendly Doctor:

> I can enjoy innovativeness as much as the next man, but the sheer amount of it large countries can get from that +0.3% per each Upper Class pop is a tad ridiculous. In the start of the game, as England, you start off with a +25% gain.

This is really broken! In my playthrough i was playing as france and in the 1550 i was at an astonishing 200% innovativenes gain. Thats too much because of that i can get from every techup 12 innovativness. But im already at 100 since the 1500. Out of these 200 i get 160% from around 550 Upperclass pop.

Originally posted by Friendly Doctor:

- I do like the idea of specific pops giving out something extra though. The following are just some suggestions, I'd be happy to know of other possibilities

I do like your ideas about giving some special things on top of it.
For the Dev cost reduction i dont think it would be that good because of the extisting dev cost + Modifier because of the provinces development. Instead a construction cost or construction time reduction would be good because the people in bigger cities do expand in a construction way much faster than ones in lower dev provinces.

The province already give local tradepower but just 0.2 per dev.

Originally posted by Friendly Doctor:

> The idea of forts acting as center of food storage and supplies is *genius*. The concept is great, but the application is set forward a bit too powerful, and makes one of your other ideas (the edict to reduce food shortages) irrelevant

Thats just true. Forts are op at the moment because you can generate with one fort so many population that it breaks the game. Every province gets so much Population because of that and every player would build forts to just get this bonus that @Friendly Doctor talked about.

I would say that the Pop growth is too much at the moment and should be reduced in some way. Or you can introduce a way to select what pop growth you want in the game via an event.

In realistic way Europe would be much more developed than the other states such as Russia but because they dont fight that often in the north they dont get food shortage or devestation and they all grow to a mininmum of 20 dev per province in the siberean region. If it is somehow possible that you can code it in a way that province in a harsher climate get less population per specific time it would be so awesome.
If you want to reduce the pop per province you can also reduce how much -food shortage manpower gives so that the population only grows to a specific number and then the player has to build a fort or uses the edict to increase it to a higher number themselves.

I like this mod very much because it somehow changes eu4 to something new and now you have to watch out how much devestation you can get on a province. And you also have to manage your country more than normal.
I can only say this much because of one gamethrough so i'm sorry if i made some mistakes or if i said something wrong.

Thank you for your feedback.
I am having very busy days this week. But once I get back to dev, I will read through the list and see what I can change/ add.
Keep posting some suggestions!

Hey Syayan,

A quick suggestion for a feature, dunno if it's possible to add it to the 'soft code' you mentioned but here it goes:

Connect manpower pool to low-pops (maybe even mid pops) just like in vicky2 - basically have a threshold check for manpower pool before adding or deleting a pop in a province.

- if country's manpower is say at 75%, their provinces are allowed to gain a new pop
- if i's around 50%, nothing happens (stagnation, growth event blocked)
- below 50% manpower, and instead of gaining pops, provinces start to lose them (inversed current growth event)

This would help stop the infinite growth of provinces that are never directly touched by war and also work the way vic2 does, where u are really careful not to throw away manpower because it will depopulate your country. Also realistic fluctating populations are cool and immersive :)

What do you think? Or is this to much of a hassle to make work? Cheers!

(or instead of manpower pool, just link the decline of pops to war exhaustion)

Originally posted by Friendly Doctor:

Greetings. I'd first like to say this is a fine idea for a mod.

As for the suggestions, however:

> In the mod, only the Upper Class may provide Tax Income:
- This is exactly the 1-1 yearly tax received from the vanilla game, based on your province's Base Tax. Now, to make it clear, before Serfdom is abolished with that lovely decision you added, this makes sense. However, after you've abolished serfdom, it is very strange that it persists in this manner. It would be interesting seeing the peasantry also contribute some manner of taxation to the realm, even if they are the backbone of the other classes' growth and potential. If at all possible, reduce the amount of tax they make to something *very* small, compared to the nobles.
- It should also be mentioned that I have little problems with the Middle Class, as base EU4's production income is already superior to tax, so all's well there.

> I can enjoy innovativeness as much as the next man, but the sheer amount of it large countries can get from that +0.3% per each Upper Class pop is a tad ridiculous. In the start of the game, as England, you start off with a +25% gain.
- I do like the idea of specific pops giving out something extra though. The following are just some suggestions, I'd be happy to know of other possibilities:
» Local Dev Cost Reduction (due to the rich's investments)
» Local Institution Spread
» Local Trade Power Increase

> The idea of forts acting as center of food storage and supplies is *genius*. The concept is great, but the application is set forward a bit too powerful, and makes one of your other ideas (the edict to reduce food shortages) irrelevant:
- It would make sense if each fort decreases the amount of devastation by a modifier that multiplies with other existing factors (or simply gives the same flat amount of the edict, -0.05), not a flat -0.83 in every single state's province with an active fort in said state. It should be said that, each extra fort over 1 only gives 50% of the benefits of the previous one, though -0.83 is too powerful in maintaining food. Each forts costs 200 ducats to build and 1 ducat to maintain. The edict that reduces devastation by 0.05, in large states, can cost between 0.8 and 1.6 ducats (and this is in the early game, in ~12-15 dev provinces). So the edict is only viable for small states. For larger states, just build a fort and watch the pops skyrocket-

>The disaster finale of Abolishing Serfdom is strange: after you defeat several noble armies, many of your owned provinces will convert up to 3 Upper Class pops to 3 Lower Class Pops... My question is why? Yes, the nobles loose their source of income, but why do you gain Lower pops and not get more out of your pops or gain 1-2 middle class pops, to represent the new stratification of society and the evolving of the burgher class? This point is further infuriating given the point above (of the upper class being the only tax income), as the only thing that you are doing is gaining yourself a better base to build up More population in the future. However, you are killing your tax income and crippling yourself, if you have no other income. Which is strange, given that now you have an array of freemen and citizens who do not pay taxes.


This is one man's opinion. I'm curious to hear either the developer's or other's responses. Happy map painting, everyone.

Thank you for your detailed comments and opinion.
1) I have added the local tax modifier +1%/ Lower Class POPs. This would compensate the Abolition of Serfdom, too, hopefully. I might increase the number tho. I will see it in my test play.
Upper -3/ Lower +3 is because my image is, serfs are not represented in the Lower Class POPs. They are only free peasants. Due to the abolition of serfdom, POP counts of free peasants skyrocket.

2) Fort system is.... actually not my invention. It's in the vanilla game. I also want to tweak the number, but I cannot find the file which contains the code of Fort decreasing the Devastation (before I renamed it).
Please let me know if anyone knows which folder I should check out.

Additionally, the end of the Abolition of Serfdom disaster was originally, Upper -1/ Lower +3. But this created a severe problem with a big nation like Ming, where you can get like +100 POPs only with a single disaster. So I changed the number.

@Stylefly
Thank you for your wonderful comment!
Harsher food supplies for harsher terrains is something I did not come up with at all. And indeed, it is a awesome idea!
I will see if I can code this, and if I can, I will put it in the mod.
You can take credit for this lol.

I'm also thinking to reduce the speed of POP growth. I guess it is too fast now.

@moxica
Thank you for your idea!
Actually, the Lower POPs are the source of Manpower, as originally so in the vanilla game.
But it is good idea to reduce POPs for each conscription of a unit.
I was originally thinking to do this with the Exploit Dev mechanics, but I cannot find which file I should change for this.

Also, the idea of War Exhaustion sounds interesting too.
I will make War Exhaustion to have some impact on the POP dynamics I have in the mod.
Thank you!

I think development of the nation should play a role, so like if you have a megacity and some other provinces, the other provinces likely wouldn't grow as a bunch of food and people go to the city. In addition, production modifiers should increase food output (depending on it's trade good) which leads to higher population overall but also more middle class.

Like if a farmer can feed himself, his familiy, and sell enough for a few extra people, you have a farmer (plus familiy) lets say about 6 (huge families back then) lower class, and 2 middle or higher class per farmer familiy. Right now it's based on trade goods, so you can have a relatively small amount of lower class, which includes non-farmers too, feeding a massive amount of middle and higher class pops, assuming you have the luxary and life needs.

Also sanitation should be a thing, the biggest historical killer of pops back then would be disease, In vanilla eu4 it's just modifiers so Switzerland can dev to space and back, so something to consider is weighting it so areas with access to fresh water dev faster, not just "farmlands go brrrrr" which is what i see alot of in these types of mods. I mean Tenochtitlan is in the mountains and is historically a massive city, and there is a reason for it, same with Cusco, aside from just being the capitals of empires.

Anyways not sure how much if any of this is in the mod this is just my 2 cents.

Originally posted by Syayan:

2) Fort system is.... actually not my invention. It's in the vanilla game. I also want to tweak the number, but I cannot find the file which contains the code of Fort decreasing the Devastation (before I renamed it).
Please let me know if anyone knows which folder I should check out.

Check out common/defines.lua for FORT_DEVASTATION_IMPACT = -10

@Stead
This is POGGER
I will check it.

I just read about religious/culture changes due to pops assimilating, very cool.
Just wondering, would it be too much to add melting pot cultures? like If Denmark conquers France, Francian culture would switch to Norman instead of Danish from pop assimilation.

Also, for places that get alot of immigration like America, provinces should have a chance to flip to a culture from which you get immigration from.

@Traror
Although the urbanization event is already a thing in the vanilla, it might be interesting to have some events that a nearby mega city would absorb surrounding POPs.
I will keep it in my note.

Let us COMPLETELY DISABLE POP EVENTS. I have the dynamic events hidden and I'm still getting my game paused by events every 1-3 days. I don't care what happens to pops!