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Total War: WARHAMMER II >  Workshop > WRLegion's Workshop > Legendary Diversity (Lizardmen) > Discussions
Legendary Diversity (Lizardmen)
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WRLegion  [developer] Nov 5, 2020 @ 10:11am
Plan for the next race
There were a lot of suggestions in the last mod about what the next one should be, which actually made it harder for me to decide which race I should cover. So, this time I decide to present you my plan for the next mod directly so your suggestions can be more productive.
The next race I wish to cover is the Dwarves, but the development will not start before the next DLC drops since I do not want to start another campaign before that happens. And the plan is not guaranteed to be implemented, everything is still subject to change.

Unlike the races I have covered before, it is pretty hard to pick units for the dwarven LLs since I do not see a lot of connections between them and specific units, so I decided to go for a more creative way and ignore the lore aspect for a bit.

Thorgrim:
Thorgrim decides to give the Airforce of Everpeak an upgrade. Instead of buffing their stats crazy, I want to give them abilities that mimic modern weaponry.

Gyrocopters
• Improve Speed
• Improve Missile Damage/Explosion damage
• Improve Missile Resistance

Normal variant
• “Hell-Hive” Rocket Pod (3 Uses, Middle range, 60s cooldown. Rains a hail of rockets on enemies, dealing heavy damage against Infantry units)

Brimstone Gun
• Air-To-Giant Missile (AGM) (4 Uses, Anti-large, homing projectile, high range, 60s cooldown)

Gyrobomber
• „Morgrim’s Pride“ Cluster bomb (1 Use, large AOE, deletes Infantry within range)



Belegar:
Since Rangers came with the DLC of Belegar and clan Angrund is probably not the most well-equipped clan in the dwarven realm, I think rangers will fit in his army well. I am not sure if I should include Bugman’s rangers, feel free to weigh in.

Ranger (Normal)
These units stay at long range and snipe down enemies without being revealed.
• Improve Speed
• Enable AP Projectile
• More Ammo
• Sniper Mode (Mechanic similar to Scatter mode from bolt throwers, Improve Range, accuracy, damage, but greatly reduce reload speed)
• Snipe

Ranger (Great weapon):
These units serve as artillery observers, since they need to get closer to enemies, they are better at hiding and surviving.
• Improve Accuracy
• Improve Speed
• Improve Melee Defence
• Unspottable
• Slows all enemies nearby
• Artillery Observer (Able to call long range artillery shots at enemy units, basically a bombardment spell bound to units, limited charges per battle)



Ungrim:
This one is the easiest, and pure slayer army is a welcoming change to the standard dwarven composition. But I think the values will be a bit lower considering Ungrim already buffs slayers and made it impossible to lose entity before the unit reaches half health.
Slayers (Both variants)
• Speed
• Vanguard Deployment
• Missile Resistance
• Redemption (-MD, +MA, +Weapon Strength, +Spd for 45s)



Grombrindal:
The rest of units that needs some love are given to the living ancestor.
Bolt Thrower: (Does this unit really exist in vanilla?)
• Single Shot mode:
o Faster Reload
o Longer Range
o Much higher damage
o Higher Anti-large bonus
o More accurate
• Scatter Mode:
o Multiple projectiles that explode on impact

Miners:
• More stats:
• Melee Attack
• Melee Defence
• Weapon Strength
• Armour

Melee Only Version gain:
• “Trench In”: Greatly improve Missile resistance, Melee defence and grant Expert Charge Defence, but greatly reduce movement speed. Cooldown should be almost 0

Ranged Version gain:
• Improve Explosion Damage
• Projectile inflict “Blinded”, reducing Melee Attack and movement speed of enemies hit by projectile
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Showing 1-15 of 17 comments
Devixian-Firehawk Nov 6, 2020 @ 8:29am 
Kinda think he should make some other units slayers, like have Ungrim's lords gain unbreakable among other ones.
#1
WRLegion  [developer] Nov 6, 2020 @ 8:36am 
Originally posted by Firehawk:
Kinda think he should make some other units slayers, like have Ungrim's lords gain unbreakable among other ones.

I do not quite understand that. Do you mean making every lord in Ungrim's faction unbreakable?
#2
Devixian-Firehawk Nov 6, 2020 @ 8:43am 
yeah kinda. I know it's not exactly lore friendly in a manner, but there's really only 2 slayer units in the game, and I think Thorgrim needs a bit more.
#3
WRLegion  [developer] Nov 6, 2020 @ 1:49pm 
Originally posted by Firehawk:
yeah kinda. I know it's not exactly lore friendly in a manner, but there's really only 2 slayer units in the game, and I think Thorgrim needs a bit more.

The goal of these mods is to improve LL's army, not to provide faction wide bonus for subfactions. So I don't think I will include that in the mod.

What would you suggest for Thorgrim?
#4
Devixian-Firehawk Nov 6, 2020 @ 2:04pm 
Thorgrim...thats a tough one, because his whole shtick is grudges, and just being practically unbreakable...talking from lore point at least.

In game, might be cool to give his army leadership buffs, and combat buffs to Longbeards.
#5
Devixian-Firehawk Nov 6, 2020 @ 2:04pm 
Hammerer's might fall into that catergory too, but idk
#6
WRLegion  [developer] Nov 7, 2020 @ 10:14am 
@Firehawk I was thinking about Hammerers, but I do not know how well the stack will work together. Guess I will have to decide that after finishing the planned content.
#7
benettonkkb Nov 9, 2020 @ 11:55am 
Just a suggestion, but.

Thorgrim: Really love where you're currently at with the gyrocopters, but maybe there could be some room to flavor them further in the spirit of modern air weaponry:

Normal variant could be flavored like the Apache helicopter, which was used as an infantry support craft. Often times its overwhelming mobility and rate of fire was a huge boon to infantry efforts and a notorious terror to enemy forces across combat scenarios. This could perhaps translate to this gyrocopter to be the slowest amongst the 3 variants, but also offers a small(maybe +4) leadership bonus to friendly units in a semi-large area, and -4 to enemy units in the same area. This would be the anti-infantry one, as you already have.

(Alternatively, possibly you could flavor it similarly to the V-22 Osprey, which is currently widely common with the American Marine Corps- it's a vertical take-off aircraft, which allows it to quickly take flight, without the need to taxi a runway. You could flavor it as the only of the gyrocopters which is actually pretty good in combat((Anti-infantry)), and has the "Take Flight" ability that the ripperdactyls have within the Lizardmen roster for easy escape in bad situations)

Then for the Brimstone Gun, you have it as an anti-large specialist unit. This could be envisioned like any ground attack-class aircraft, which are most often used to take down specific enemy targets. It could be flavored like the A-10 Thunderbolt II, which was used specifically to take out armored vehicles and tanks. This one is a slower aircraft, but easily maintained for combat(maybe buff to ammunition?)

Then, the Gyrobomber, which could be flavored as a strategic bomber airfcraft. Would be cool to see it stylized like the famous B-2 Stealth Bomber. This one could have stalk/unspottable and the largest AOE of the bombs, as you already have, in order to safely take out things such as artillery units, or elite ranged infantry like waywatchers, mortar, jezzails, handgunners.


So TLDR suggestions; (in addition to your changes, as you're basically already right on the money)

Normal Variant -(infantry support) Buff/Debuff effects to nearby ground units(and/or better melee combat capabilities)
Brimstone - Buff to Ammo
Bomber - Stalk/Unspottable
#8
benettonkkb Nov 9, 2020 @ 12:00pm 
For Ungrim, I dont know why, but I always run him with Slayer/Fire themed ranged units. The slayers handle the large, the fire units handle the infantry. Maybe buffs to Irondrakes and Flame Cannons? Would definitely suggest range, because those units badly need it.

Really love your Belegar changes as they are. They sort of make Rangers like Jezzails. Yeah definitely add Bugmans to the buffs as well! He needs it!

Grombrindal is flavored as a sort of paragon of the dwarfs, with his blue line skills buffing the entire faction, where every other lord just buffs their army. Maybe his buffs should be across-the-board army buffs? Or a special army ability?
#9
WRLegion  [developer] Nov 9, 2020 @ 12:26pm 
Originally posted by benettonkkb:
Just a suggestion, but.

Thorgrim: Really love where you're currently at with the gyrocopters, but maybe there could be some room to flavor them further in the spirit of modern air weaponry:

Normal variant could be flavored like the Apache helicopter, which was used as an infantry support craft. Often times its overwhelming mobility and rate of fire was a huge boon to infantry efforts and a notorious terror to enemy forces across combat scenarios. This could perhaps translate to this gyrocopter to be the slowest amongst the 3 variants, but also offers a small(maybe +4) leadership bonus to friendly units in a semi-large area, and -4 to enemy units in the same area. This would be the anti-infantry one, as you already have.

(Alternatively, possibly you could flavor it similarly to the V-22 Osprey, which is currently widely common with the American Marine Corps- it's a vertical take-off aircraft, which allows it to quickly take flight, without the need to taxi a runway. You could flavor it as the only of the gyrocopters which is actually pretty good in combat((Anti-infantry)), and has the "Take Flight" ability that the ripperdactyls have within the Lizardmen roster for easy escape in bad situations)

Then for the Brimstone Gun, you have it as an anti-large specialist unit. This could be envisioned like any ground attack-class aircraft, which are most often used to take down specific enemy targets. It could be flavored like the A-10 Thunderbolt II, which was used specifically to take out armored vehicles and tanks. This one is a slower aircraft, but easily maintained for combat(maybe buff to ammunition?)

Then, the Gyrobomber, which could be flavored as a strategic bomber airfcraft. Would be cool to see it stylized like the famous B-2 Stealth Bomber. This one could have stalk/unspottable and the largest AOE of the bombs, as you already have, in order to safely take out things such as artillery units, or elite ranged infantry like waywatchers, mortar, jezzails, handgunners.


So TLDR suggestions; (in addition to your changes, as you're basically already right on the money)

Normal Variant -(infantry support) Buff/Debuff effects to nearby ground units(and/or better melee combat capabilities)
Brimstone - Buff to Ammo
Bomber - Stalk/Unspottable


I will take these suggestion and think about them. But if the normal variant really needs to be an infantry support unit, then it definitely need more than just morale aura. (I mean dwarves fight to death anyway, and -4 morale doesn't even cancel the cheat for AI under VH difficulty) Although I have to say I am not planning to let them go into melee.

As for the Gyrobombers, I think you have brought up a good point. I just need to think about a "reasonable explanation" as for why they are invisible (optical camouflage perhaps?)
#10
WRLegion  [developer] Nov 9, 2020 @ 12:40pm 
Originally posted by benettonkkb:
For Ungrim, I dont know why, but I always run him with Slayer/Fire themed ranged units. The slayers handle the large, the fire units handle the infantry. Maybe buffs to Irondrakes and Flame Cannons? Would definitely suggest range, because those units badly need it.

Really love your Belegar changes as they are. They sort of make Rangers like Jezzails. Yeah definitely add Bugmans to the buffs as well! He needs it!

Grombrindal is flavored as a sort of paragon of the dwarfs, with his blue line skills buffing the entire faction, where every other lord just buffs their army. Maybe his buffs should be across-the-board army buffs? Or a special army ability?

I know that engineer slayer is a thing , but I don't know about adding flame cannon to his army. I mean they definitely need some buff, but I don't know if it suits the play style of a slayer army since there won't be infantry dedicated to protect them? I will think about this.

With Grombrindal I do prefer the army ability approach, since I do not want to provide any faction wide buff with this series of mod.
#11
JediMasterDraco Nov 11, 2020 @ 8:28am 
Not sure if this is relevant, but when the time comes to play with the High Elves, maybe Eltharion's could buff his Mistwalkers since they are his specific army.
#12
WRLegion  [developer] Nov 11, 2020 @ 10:05am 
Originally posted by JediMasterDraco:
Not sure if this is relevant, but when the time comes to play with the High Elves, maybe Eltharion's could buff his Mistwalkers since they are his specific army.

That is for sure, I feel like the biggest problem with High Elves is that you only get these units when you play as Yvresse. And the same goes for Alith Anar and the Everqueen.
#13
Briar_Black Dec 2, 2020 @ 12:05pm 
I don't know if this comment has already been made but I think Singe might provide you a good guideline for how to handle dwarves so in the interest of giving you some ideas I'll present his framework;

High King Thorgrim, being he is the most Elite among Dwarf lords, Boosts Hammerers, Gyrocopters and Organ Guns

Grombrindal, being that he is the oldest among Dwarf Lords, Boosts Low Tier units (Quarrellers, Miners, Dwarf Warriors, Ballistae, Catapults)

Belegar Ironhammer, being that he is the lord of the Ironhammer Clan, Boosts Ironbreakers, Irondrakes, and Flame Cannon artillery.

Ungrim, obviously, Boosts Slayers. However, I think because he is so close to Zhufbar (the home of the Bugmans Rangers landmark) he could also feasibly be seen to be boosting them as well.
#14
WRLegion  [developer] Dec 2, 2020 @ 1:01pm 
Originally posted by Briar_Black:
I don't know if this comment has already been made but I think Singe might provide you a good guideline for how to handle dwarves so in the interest of giving you some ideas I'll present his framework;

High King Thorgrim, being he is the most Elite among Dwarf lords, Boosts Hammerers, Gyrocopters and Organ Guns

Grombrindal, being that he is the oldest among Dwarf Lords, Boosts Low Tier units (Quarrellers, Miners, Dwarf Warriors, Ballistae, Catapults)

Belegar Ironhammer, being that he is the lord of the Ironhammer Clan, Boosts Ironbreakers, Irondrakes, and Flame Cannon artillery.

Ungrim, obviously, Boosts Slayers. However, I think because he is so close to Zhufbar (the home of the Bugmans Rangers landmark) he could also feasibly be seen to be boosting them as well.


Thorgrim will be supporting Hammerers, Organ Guns are already doomstack units so they will not be further buffed.

Grombrindal already buffs Miners and actually make 2 variants 2 completely different units, so I think the addition of Dwarf Warriors wont bring a lot to his stack. The same goes for Ballista, I will make them more than viable as an anti-infantry artillery so Catapults wont be bringing much to the table (and they do get a lot of actions early in the campaign).

As for Belegar, I really think Ironbreakers and Irondrakes are good enough and they both are doomstack units anyway. That is the reason I went for rangers for him. And I believe the new rangers will be quite fun to play so I am reluctant to change that. It is just a shame that artillery pieces like flamecannon don't really fit into the guerrilla play-style the ranger stack is supposed to be offering and thus does not quite fit into his army
#15
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