Darkest Dungeon®

Darkest Dungeon®

Drowner Class Mod BETA
Makereth Dec 22, 2018 @ 4:36am
Balance
Bite:

The weapon's base damage is 4-14, which can be either crazy or just a regular attack. At resolve level 6, that dmg becomes a range of 10-24. Sure, the randomness of its nature is similar to how the leper works, but the leper can be patched with acc trinkets, unlike the drowner. But then bite has this DMG mod growth of 5% per level, leading up to 20%. I haven't done the math, but this can get out of hand with the right dmg trinkets.

What would I change? There's nothing wrong with having high dmg, actually, but the fact that her lvl 5 armor has 60 hp is way too much. I'd nerf the damage output for bite (instead of having no DMG mod at base level, I'd give her a negative DMG mod and then soothe it as it levels up).

Assault:

It feels a little bit strong for an attack that moves forward from the rear. I'd reduce the damage a bit more (since the skill already has utility for repositioning herself and disrupting the enemy).

Exodia:

It stuns, knockbacks and marks. And damage. I'd lower the attack to a permanent -90% and buff the accuracy to make up for it, and lower the stun and knockback chance back to a base 100%.

Bombard:

A limited uses aoe that is weak against non-marked enemies, but great against marked ones. Also, self damage. No crit chance. Increased usages at higher levels. I'm ok with this one.

Hammer:

I knew this one was op as I read its effect. Restricted to position 1, attacks both 1 and 2, has armor penetration, good accuracy, debuffs prot and great crit chance. It even has a positive DMG mod up to 20%.

Normally, enemies with high prot always occupy positions 1 or 2, so having an attack that targets multiple positions while ignoring prot is already crazy good. But then it also scales the dmg, debuffs and has great crit chance. I'd limit it to a single target to position 1 or 2, lower the dmg and crit scaling and remove the debuff. Or keep the multiple targeting, destroy the damage potential and keep the debuff, as a way to help companions killing the heavy enemies.

Contagion:

It's a party heal. At base level, it stresses for 8, blights and bleeds everyone for 2 over 2, and heals a fixed amount of hp of 6. On top of it, she self-heals for an additional 4 hp (in higher levels, she also cures bligh/bleed and stress heals). The theme with this ability is to heal for massive quantities, but inflicting higher damage over time in the form of blights and bleeds that must be cured quickly, as well as that stress payment to activate it.

It's really good as a panic button that enables a last push to end the fight, but comes with the risk of great failure in managing to end it and curing everyone with bandages and blight cures.
I like the concept of it, and I'd even add a low chance of getting a disease. I'd put a scaling to the stress dmg taken, so that at higher levels is even riskier to use it. The dots can be cured with companion synergies, but the party stress is harder to fight against. And this skill shouldn't be used as the primary healing method, more like a last resource.

And lastly, Purify:

It's THE aoe. I ran into a spider fight, drowner moved first, used Purify and killed everything. Only took 5 dmg in exchange. Her other skills buff this one's output (I guess because of a growth in the livelyness of her inner infection). The debuff of -30% dmg after it's usage only last three battles, and can be easily recovered with the usage of her other skills anyway.

Much can be done to this skill. If its mechanism is unchanged, then I'd give a higher penalty to its usage and possibly a greater backlash in the hp loss. Other possibility would be augmenting the negative dmg mod, so that it can only be used after buffing it a lot.


That's it for the skills. As for the camping skills, I'd add 1 cost to each of them. They are really good, more so as they are incredibly cheap. An additional time cost would balance it out.


As it stands, as a class, she's great at both attack power and hp, so I'd heavily nerf the hp to make her into a squishy offensive character or lower her weapon attack power and hp a bit, so that she's still good at attack and tanking, but not excelent. If the crazy damage is kept, there must be some kind of retribution to it (kind of like Muscarine's Fawn). Doing so would help her being the middle ground between the Fawn and the Slayer. Although a bit closer to the Slayer, changes can be proggresively done until she gains a more unique identity gameplay-wise.

Bear in mind this is just my opinion. Feel free to use any of this as reference. It's your mod. A really promising mod, too!
< >
Showing 1-15 of 17 comments
anaertailin  [developer] Dec 22, 2018 @ 8:43am 
Thank you for your advice. I've tried to revise it on my computer.But about purify,every time it is used, it causes more self-injury in the next battle.If you use it frequently,Maybe she could kill herself at once. I'm not sure if it's appropriate,maybe holy water will destroy the balance.But it seems to be a good way to kill insects.

Makereth Dec 22, 2018 @ 9:26am 
I guess what bothers me most about Purify is that it targets everyone and deals massive damage. It's relatively good at quest start, and it only gets better with time. Even if there's a backlash, it's not harsh enough to make me struggle to use it. I mean, it's an aoe with great dmg! Most aoe skills are very weak, restrictive or focus on debuffing/suffling rather than killing. For example, her other aoe skill relies in marks to actually be good and also has the hp loss (and even limited usages).

However, this might be just me. I don't know how the others may see it.
Proboscis Dec 23, 2018 @ 3:45pm 
I haven't used every ability yet, but here's my thoughts on at least a few:

Bite:
Similar to the Leper. Honestly, got no problems with it as far as balance. She basically occupies the same slot as one, too, so I'm fine with it.

Hammer:
A bit on the strong side, but without healing/mitigation, the downsides of it are pretty damning. At one point while spamming it, I ended up with 24 bleed/turn. But that's what items and companions are for, right? Dealing with this sort of thing.

Contagion:
I like the idea of it, but boy does that stress make me not want to use it.

Purify:
The self-damage stacks up quickly enough to make over-using it not worth risking a death, so I find it more or less fine.

Overall, the balance right now could use a bit of work, but I like where it's headed.

My biggest problem with it right now is that it doesn't have any sets of skills that work in tandem. Usually when you put together a skillset, you want four abilities that can be used either in slot 3/4 or 1/2. Maybe I'm just not understanding how you're meant to set her up, but the skills just don't seem to work well with each other. Maybe they could use some more self-movement or something, idk.
Makereth Dec 23, 2018 @ 4:32pm 
Another possibility to nerf hammer would be giving it a self knockback of 1, so that it can't be used continuosly without the right plan.

To follow what Proboscis proposed, maybe give another skill the possibility to move forward. Assault feels... unnecesary, as it is. She has no ways of pushing herself back to rank 3, so why would she need a skill to move forward? That being said, it all depends on what you pictured her to be. A frontline fighter and a assitant in the backline? A movile unit that switches around as it fights?

As of now, I see her as a backline marker with a finisher and utility, or as a frontilne heavy-hitter that buffs her final move. Assault is there probably as a bridge between the starting backline phase and the purify finisher phase.

On another note, I don't really see the sense in her penalty being a bleed. I mean, when does she cut herself? Since there's steam, maybe a burn (but such thing does not exists as a dot). Or just hp damage. I like how the steam reduces the allies' ACC, btw.
Broski Dec 24, 2018 @ 12:33pm 
Thanks Makereth for the summary and analysis. Something that was notably missing from the Mod Creator..
Makereth Dec 24, 2018 @ 3:18pm 
@Derps I believe not showcasing the different skills was the right move. There were some problems with some of them not doing what they were meant to. Besides, the balance isn't right for some of the skills, and this mod being in beta phase means that any substantial change to anything can be done anytime without prior notice. Having a nice and welcoming summary of how the drowner works is a bit unnecessary until it becomes more well-defined in its making.

I get you, though. This mod looks so good it makes you believe it can't be a beta, so it's frustrating not finding a description of her. It'll get there, in time.
@Makereth could you describe the rest of your typical team comp with her, I seem to have misunderstood greatly if your recension is any indication.

a)enemy front row damage/mark is way worse than back row, right? So for Exodia why not have it mark? (I'd take two entire turns ec. \two to four stress attacks\ to, IF the knockback hits, mark anthing you actually WANT to focus on(move works on almost no boss) and you don't want to kill something that is still stunned....

b) you know there are better solutions to killing the spider encounter(wo taking damage) then purify(which requires you not to use hammer in other encounters) and for most other strategies there are way better damage options for the third enemy position, it doesnt even reach the forth( I know it looks overtuned against some of the vanilla ones but most vanilla classes with aoe can reably damage the forth position in some way, sooooooooo...)

c)assault.... why is ok damage+knockback on a move skill ( that gets used, like, once per encounter) a problem, when all vanilla ones are decent to good as hell(lunge, dueslists advance, holy lance) i just don't get this one

d) contagion makes literally no sense, how does more stress help you take something this unviable? if you get desperate enough wo having used all your cures i don't understand how. This is properbly the one which needs a rework the direst.

I don't mean anything by it, im just bad at formulating myself ;)

I just wanted to ask before I give my two cents about the how, since this discussion seemed more or less headed by you

Though maybe lemme just put this one on,

Contagion:
why does it need to heal so much and do so much damage? maybe tiny heal for bad debuff( like damage+accuracy [or even max health on self till camp :P] ), heal all enemies and self or single target 'life steal' from teammate, since the drowners 'low' hp for frontline + self damage makes them the one most likely do hit deaths door in the first place (....or just make something different entirely like a back move something?)

p.s. maybe some of your ideas were already applied when I tested it?:stress:

I think I sound mean condecending and I'm sorry for that:cozyjunimogreen:
Last edited by Leftover Knight 𓂀𓂏𓂀; Dec 24, 2018 @ 6:54pm
Makereth Dec 25, 2018 @ 2:48am 
@Leftover Knight Well, you said a lot, so I may have to answer a lot to touch each topic you mentioned. Also, yes. My first post was from before hammer had any backlash to it or when purify still hit the forth position, so it's to be expected that nothing from what I said first made much sense now. It's a beta. Things change, and there isn't a changelog or similar yet.

About Exodia... it-it doesn't mark? It sais it does in the description. Maybe it was I who misunderstood (I haven't tested this skill much, tbh). I don't get what you mean with this one. Can you clarify?

Purify was a true aoe before, but since the damage could be excellent for an aoe, the forth position was put out of reach so its power made more sense. It was like if Leper got an aoe that could be buffed. The thing about aoe is that there's not aoe for damage. There's aoe for dots, debuffs or shuffles. And all of them were weak. This one was pure damage. Now it's similar to Hellion's breakthrough with hp loss and a risk if abused.

Assault was stronger before (just a bit). The only problem that comes to mind is that since there's no way the drowner can push herself back, it becomes harder to use this skill if you started in the front. The only utility I can make out of it is transitioning from backline marker to purify finisher. I'm not sure if this answered you.

Contagion is probably the most bugged one of the bunch. The first time I used it, I took 32 stress to everyone, 6 over 2 blight (no bleed yet, although it was meant to bleed) and crazy good healing. It's been softened since then (now it's only 8 stress), but the heals are still great for a relatively cheap party heal. Compare it with vestal's. At level one, it heals 1-2(-3?). This one heals 6 but pings 8. The initial ping is hard to avoid, so it's a party heal of 2. From them on, you want to cure with a plague doctor or a lamia to avoid further damage.

I guess I was fine with it because it was hyper-bugged before and I watch some crazy numbers on my screen (I'm talking about heals that reach 24!). I agree that it could be beneficial to rework this one, and since hammer started a new trend of debuffing companions, why not following your suggestion? Low party heal, no dots (or stress? maybe smaller stress), and instead, a debuff. That would open new doors. And now that we're talking about reworking it, maybe restrict its usage on position 3 and 4 instead of 3 and 2. That way there's a better use for her at the rear and more potential for assault to transition to an aggresion phase.

Idk. I didn't want to get wild with suggestions mostly because this isn't my mod, and I didn't want to get too pushy. The creator is the one who decides in the end, and it wouldn't be good to blindly do as some of us say. For example, we may theorycraft as we please about Contagion, but in the end, it's up to the creator.

And don't worry. I didn't feel you were mean. Besides, it's good that somebody questions what I say about balance. That way it is a contrasted opinion and the results obtained from this discussion become better. So fire as you please!

(About team comp, I mostly take a healer besides her, a stress healer and another frontline fighter. She's usually in pos 1 for hammer. I haven't invested much in strategy. More often than not, I have gone into a quest just to test contagion in order to see if it is still as bugged as ever. I even suspected it may be as bad as it is because of the location the stress and other icons appear at. Haven't checked though)
Makes way more sense now (that i know the difference in version was the main culprit),

I didn't wanna be pushy either (if you can hear me, anaertailin) just throwing stuff out which I wagure would lend itself to her overall strategy wo hurting the conceptual Idea behind whats happening (overall i'm superstoked about the general design as frontline is the position which really needs extra love in my eyes)

I seem to use more stun and guard/riposte in the rest of my team with her, rather than damage (and spongeing stress more than direct healing it, tho i used the houndmaster for some mark team comps)

Also, i meant exodia doesnt mark back row effectively, and front row normally doesnt need mark, either because you want to kill back row first (and mark's for killing) or because for bosses you want the dodge/prot debuff from the vanilla ones + she'd be free to deal damage

and i get the cure by plague doctor for contagion, but for me drowner dies before anyone else unless i guard anyways so i just don't understand when you'd equip it instead of literally anything else beforehand

some of it just didn't make sense, because: 4 am
I don't quite get what I meant with assault either, though i think it's quite fine and essential for marking teams,
but thanks for being so understanding anyway :D


Last edited by Leftover Knight 𓂀𓂏𓂀; Dec 25, 2018 @ 12:39pm
Apple Juice Box Dec 29, 2018 @ 6:54am 
Might just be me, but I think a high-rarity trinket (maybe a Colors of Madness shard trinket) that lessens the self-damage of Bombard somehow might be good. Something hard to get/find, but pays off for those who like to use that ability.
Warrare Feb 20, 2019 @ 7:44pm 
I havent read every comment, so forgive me if someone said this already.

About Purify:
The skill is overpowered in the crimson court (maybe other places too, havent tested enough). I easily managed to climb all the way to 400% extra dmg, leading to a literal 100 dmg hit on an enemy without critting, which could be abused to 1shot the bosses. The penalty for using it needs to be more profound, or perhaps it could be changed to scale worse, or perhaps you could make it so the damage buffs lose a bit of potency every battle, or round, or something, so it doesnt stack infinitely.

Overall, I feel the drowner is a little too strong atm. Regardless, BEAUTIFUL class, and looking forward to see it develop. :)
The Dweller Mar 2, 2019 @ 1:33pm 
honestly i think that her purify is fine purely because ive had three runs now where i tried to use it once or twice and she hit litterly one person and got every debuff to take effect on her and it lost me the run so i think the risk vs reward is fine for purify i think hammer is good too that bleed stacks really fast and without a way to cure it you cannot spam it at all i think her bite is fine its basically the leper basic skill something i do find stange is how similar to the slayer she is but the main difference is theres little to no synergy between her skills other than that very nice design and good penalties
The Dweller Mar 2, 2019 @ 3:31pm 
one more thing if you want to balance something but its a really strong skill i would highly reccomend making it a limited use skill so that you dont have to stack so many debuffs or damage to self on it.

You can also balance it like the jester and make it where you can get alot of damage but its some what hard caps at round seven i feel like its not as unique but in my opinion at least it will feel better to use also 2-3 use hammer would be an easy balance btw

Edit: i think shes very fun now that ive used her alot, also she almost one shot my team when the siren mind controlled her 10/10 would take 35 damage again (to all 3 heros btw)
Last edited by The Dweller; Mar 2, 2019 @ 7:24pm
Warrare Mar 4, 2019 @ 8:00am 
Some new thoughts to sum up, (skip to the end for just my conclusion)

Her base Damage is very high
Her Accuracy is decent
Her HP is average
Her Speed is nearly the highest in the game (Speed is one of the best stats)
Her Dodge is good

Bite skill has positive dmg modifier
Assault gives her an answer to shuffle
Exodia gives her a reliable stun
Bombard gives her mark synergy
Hammer has armor piercing aganist prot
Contagian is balanced (A lil on the weak end imo)
Purify is a massive AOE nuke that scales with dungeon length

The problem isnt really just one skill I think, she's too good at everything. If you nerfed her HP for example, purifys self harm dmg would be a lot scarier. If you nerfed her speed, then she wouldnt be able to open with purify for every hard fight, insta killing the enemies before they have a chance to retaliate. Even something as simple as nerfing her stun chance could go a long way in improving her balance. My advice at the moment: Choose what she should be good at (Big dmg dealer, tanky fronline stunner and supporter, or a hyper late game scaling threat, etc), and nerf everything else.
Picking up Chocolates idea, what if you made purify really strong, but gave it a 1 time use per Dungeon? :o I dont know if thats possible to code, but it sounds cool. Or yeah, you could put a hard cap on how strong purify can get, so it doesnt scale to infinity. Anyways, best of luck.
InconTheTeacher Mar 12, 2019 @ 10:26pm 
At worst, if you really want her to be able to fill multiple roles, why not trinkets? One could reduce her HP and increase her damage to make her more of a dmg dealer and another could do the inverse to make her more of a tank, et cetera.

This is...awkward to try to explain, but another thing that could be done to reduce her jack of all trades-ness is that after using abilities that fill a certain role in her kit (such as moving/healing/stunning/etc, etc), she would debuff all other abilities that fill another role.

For example, whenever you'd use her stun, the healing she does would go down by a certain percentage for 3 rounds. Whenever you'd use her answer to shuffle, her healing done and stun chance would go down by a certain percentage for 2 rounds.

That would basically allow you to balance out her utility/stun/healing/etc abilities independently without worrying as much about the other ones, plus it would force the player to think ahead about what he will do. Will he stun now at the price of not being able to heal with her later if someone reaches death's door? Now that's just the wet dream of all game devs, Completely unrealistic. More seriously, it would just make her less good at filling multiple roles at the same time in a single battle. The main issue with that is that it sort of discourages bringing multiple of them along at the same time since the player will only use one per battle, or two for longer battles, thus reducing her complexity and reducing the synergy between her abilities.



I will be honest, I haven't even played the class and I've just had a really bad hazy day and it's really late so while I know it's stupid to post this without having even played the class I'll do it anyways. It was nice to think about it and try to find a solution though, I must admit. Even though it'll get nowhere. Anyways, have a golden day/night !
< >
Showing 1-15 of 17 comments
Per page: 1530 50