First, in my past advice, Chireiden is included to have followed Moriya Shinto. The reason I have that in the story of Subterranean Animism, it was Kanako who gave the power to Utsuho Reiuji, and Koishi also went to Moriya Shrine to seek that power. There is no evidence showing that the ruler Satori was converted or had a good relationship with Moriya, though..So Chireiden can keep Hakurei, but more province should have Moriya Shinto.(A little nerf to Chireiden, because it has the biggest total development at the beginning)
Second, I would change my old mind that Youkai Forest follows Moriya Shinto. The ruler Hina Kagiyama is the goddess who collects human`s misfortune, and is basically one of the million Shinto`s gods. She doesn`t have too close relationship with Moriya Clan,(Though they both first appeared in Mount of Faith) instead she might have closer relationship with Aki sisters, who were deities of Hakurei Shinto. So I suggest that YOF has the state religion of Hakurei, but maybe part of its realm follows Moriya Shinto(In order to show the spreading influence of Moriya Clan).
Third, I think the description of the mission “Makai” should be revised. We all know that Alice first appeared in Mystic Square; and Alice in Mystic Square is the same person with Alice Margatroid in new story(This is confirmed by Zun). However relationship between Alice and Shinki is not clear. Chinese Touhou fans mostly agree that Alice is also created by Shinki - thus she is a Makaian, daughter of Shinki; or a human adopted daughter of Shinki and later becomes magician. That legitimates Alice to claim Makai`s throne.
Fourth, as you said before, Hakurei`s mission tree should be overhauled. In my opinion, Reimu does not have the ambition to covert all the world, but she should be interested in cleaning Moriya heresies (Because that will increase her income ww). So the mission of converting gensokyo can be kept, but converting Japan, Korea and even China should be removed. What should be added as an alternative...I don`t have the idea yet, but I`m sure those removed mission can be a good part of Moriya`s mission tree in the future. Actually Reimu`s mission tree and events might be the hardest to make, because Reimu is the main character, has tons of stories. If I were you ,I will not change it until there is really good idea and most of the other nations are finished.

Bugs report:(Some of them are just small slip in writing , some of them might not really a bug)
The title of Th Taoism is spelled wrong as “Taosim”
“Burrow” and “perhabs” in description of mission”Voile, the magic library”
I noticed that all the Th republics(HMC,LOC etc) have the decision to reform to feudal shrine theocracy(with no Dharma DLC), I`m not sure if you wish that happen.
The Th Buddhism has the mechanic of harmony, however it can`t have any events which accelerate the harmonizing progress, because all those events require country to be Confucian. That will make harmonizing extremely slow. Well that doesn`t need to be fixed so soon.
One worst thing, is that the government type will become “empty”(as shown screenshots) when having a reformed government , saving and then loading the save. I tested the condition of it, it seems only happen when I used console commands. Though it is fine for me to play without using any console command, it is still a dangerous bug. Only this is really urge to be fixed.

https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198300127679/screenshots/

Nvm, I didn't notice it was a new thread

EDIT:
Oof, I see I have forgotten some major plot from my favorite game series.... this hurts. Regardless, thanks for the suggestions. They are really well thought out - and Satori could need a little nerf too, so this is the most elegant way to do so. I will however give Satori and Hina an event which allows an easier time for the religious heresy. While the plot and the immersion is important the fun for the player and the gameplay is way more significant.

Hakurei... well, you're right. Reimus IS difficult to handle, but when I get to the Moriya Mission tree she will get her rework + I will add more Incidents Eventchains / Missions (nobody seems to be mad about that), so the Hakurei Realm will reach its unique lazy handling of religion someday.

The spelling and grammar mistakes ... just hurt for me. Still, I'm glad someone points these for me out.

The possibility for the republics to reform into a Shrine Theocracy was a very old idea from me and should get replaced by something else indeed. Hakurei Realm and Moriya Realm should be the only religious governments in Gensokyo.

The harmonizing events are something what I forgot to add, but this is relatively easy to do.

Regarding of the government bug - I tested it out, I tried to reproduce it, but I couldn't get the bug. I really don't know what makes this bug, but I will keep an eye on that.
Do you have any other gameplay changing mod active by any chance? Perhabs some conflicts cause this bug...

EDIT 2:
I could finally reproduce the bug, yet I don't know why it happens or how to solve it...

Having played some more, I have some thoughts to share.

For Hakurei playing, their mission structure is a bit strange. While they're told to seek an alliance with Marisa, their next objective is to capture the Saigyou Ayakashi... which they can't actually do, without either conquering Marisa or hoping she loses enough territory to reach the Netherworld, since you can't core something you don't have an adjacent province to until like, diplo tech 23 or something?

Unless I'm misunderstanding how having a permaclaim works, it seems difficult to actually accomplish the Hakurei mission chain as intended that way, since she doesn't even get a way to peacefully annex or integrate the Forest of Magic like Scarlet and Chireiden get to Personal Union the other.

I've noticed that if Hakurei responds to Outsiders invading Japan, she never actually keeps the "Defender of Gensokyo" buff, because it seems to wear off because she's not in the war, because she won't get invited to defend until the ally calls her in themselves.

Just as I said to Flan in this thread, Hakurei`s mission tree needs to be overhauled. I also reported some unfriendly features of Hakurei`s mission tree. The mission of conquering Saigyou Ayakashi gives two CBs at the same time, which are hard to fully utilize in their short duration time. And as you pointed out, the way to expand to the east was blocked by Marisa. The player may consider to expand to the west first, but all the claims in the west comes from conquering Human Capital first, who is a troublesome noble guy in the east. Actually in my playing, I vassalized Human Capital using the given CB, but I felt it hard to force its religion. It took me 50 years to make its opinion positive to me.
As for Saigyou Ayakashi is an inland province, you don`t have to hope Marisa lost her territory to deal with it. You can directly declare war on Netherworld and demand a coastal province near Saigyou Ayakashi,(i.e. Hakugyokurou) and then demand Saigyou Ayakashi in the same peace offer. You can take both of the province in one war and not have to wait till revolutionary era, even if your land is not adjacent to Netherworld. They will be considered oversea provinces, just like you taking oversea provinces as an island country. You cannot core Saigyou Ayakashi immediately after peace deal, but you can core Hakugyokurou first(because it is a coastal province in your colonial range, you can check it), and then you are able to core Saigyou Ayakashi.
After conquered Saigyou Ayakashi, the reward will give you a PU CB on Marisa and a subjugation CB on Human Capital. I suggest not to pick the reward so soon, because these CBs have very short duration, pick it when you are ready to start a war against Marisa/Human Capital. And due to my bad experience, I recommend to directly demand province of Human Capital instead of force vassalizing them.
As for the buff of defending outsider, I`m not sure if that is a bug, because I never respond to the call to arms XD

yanqp1 lähetti viestin:

Just as I said to Flan in this thread, Hakurei`s mission tree needs to be overhauled. I also reported some unfriendly features of Hakurei`s mission tree. The mission of conquering Saigyou Ayakashi gives two CBs at the same time, which are hard to fully utilize in their short duration time. And as you pointed out, the way to expand to the east was blocked by Marisa. The player may consider to expand to the west first, but all the claims in the west comes from conquering Human Capital first, who is a troublesome noble guy in the east. Actually in my playing, I vassalized Human Capital using the given CB, but I felt it hard to force its religion. It took me 50 years to make its opinion positive to me.
As for Saigyou Ayakashi is an inland province, you don`t have to hope Marisa lost her territory to deal with it. You can directly declare war on Netherworld and demand a coastal province near Saigyou Ayakashi,(i.e. Hakugyokurou) and then demand Saigyou Ayakashi in the same peace offer. You can take both of the province in one war and not have to wait till revolutionary era, even if your land is not adjacent to Netherworld. They will be considered oversea provinces, just like you taking oversea provinces as an island country. You cannot core Saigyou Ayakashi immediately after peace deal, but you can core Hakugyokurou first(because it is a coastal province in your colonial range, you can check it), and then you are able to core Saigyou Ayakashi.
After conquered Saigyou Ayakashi, the reward will give you a PU CB on Marisa and a subjugation CB on Human Capital. I suggest not to pick the reward so soon, because these CBs have very short duration, pick it when you are ready to start a war against Marisa/Human Capital. And due to my bad experience, I recommend to directly demand province of Human Capital instead of force vassalizing them.
As for the buff of defending outsider, I`m not sure if that is a bug, because I never respond to the call to arms XD

Yeah playing it today, I noticed you actually can claim the Netherworld from across the ocean regardless, so its not completely impossible. It is though, very awkward, especially in comparison to the mission trees of Scarlet, Chireiden or Marisa, who have more "natural" progression.

I think the Navy stuff needs to get changed as well, if only because the 7 port requirement is actually harder to get then just getting an Explorer another way. While that does eat up an Idea Group, it does help to actually do colonizing...

Speaking of missions, that reminds me that Scarlet "double dips", because one of her first missions is to build to her force limit (and a general but...), but she also has the generic 'build to force limit', so she kind of gets to do two missions for one.

Soo... I already know that Hakurei's mission tree is a little bit... weird to play to say it least. I already have planned a overhaul for Reimu's mission tree, but it isn't top priority for me right now. There are still other nations who in dire need for some love. However, I think when I start to design Sanae's mission tree Reimu will get her reworked mission tree with it. No promise though.

Regarding the defender buff: I knew it! I'll have to buff it obviously xD
Also it is intended to remain until the Shrine Maidens fended off the enemies. It doesn't make sense to have a defender modifier still active when you not only defeated them but also start to conquer Gensokyo for yourself.

A reward for defending your neighbours would be a neat idea, which would finally motivate you to actually help your friends...

Comrade Flan lähetti viestin:

Soo... I already know that Hakurei's mission tree is a little bit... weird to play to say it least. I already have planned a overhaul for Reimu's mission tree, but it isn't top priority for me right now. There are still other nations who in dire need for some love. However, I think when I start to design Sanae's mission tree Reimu will get her reworked mission tree with it. No promise though.

Regarding the defender buff: I knew it! I'll have to buff it obviously xD
Also it is intended to remain until the Shrine Maidens fended off the enemies. It doesn't make sense to have a defender modifier still active when you not only defeated them but also start to conquer Gensokyo for yourself.

A reward for defending your neighbours would be a neat idea, which would finally motivate you to actually help your friends...

Yeah I understand its meant to last until the outside invasion ends, but in my playing when I got it, it was given then taken away within a few days.
It seems the issue is the buff is given by accepting the decision to help whoever is calling for aid, and it makes an alliance with them. However, the buff goes away because you're only allied with them - it doesn't call you into the war on its own, they need to invite you (or I suppose you need to ask).

And yeah I can understand there's other nations that need some loving. I can imagine a hard part about this, is there's a lot of nations, so its tough to make them all really that different from one another...

I noticed that several nations get a new government 'type at tier 6, but can I ask why its tier 6? Some of these, like Marisa's, completely change how she would play, but it only comes up pretty late into the game.

xkuripuri lähetti viestin:

Yeah I understand its meant to last until the outside invasion ends, but in my playing when I got it, it was given then taken away within a few days.
It seems the issue is the buff is given by accepting the decision to help whoever is calling for aid, and it makes an alliance with them. However, the buff goes away because you're only allied with them - it doesn't call you into the war on its own, they need to invite you (or I suppose you need to ask).

And yeah I can understand there's other nations that need some loving. I can imagine a hard part about this, is there's a lot of nations, so its tough to make them all really that different from one another...

Ok, that the modifier disappears after a few days is a bug, which I will fix. For some reasons I never got it (I guess the AI loves it to call me to a war the second I am allied to them...)

xkuripuri lähetti viestin:

I noticed that several nations get a new government 'type at tier 6, but can I ask why its tier 6? Some of these, like Marisa's, completely change how she would play, but it only comes up pretty late into the game.

This is honestly a good question...

My decision to put the special government reforms at tier 6 is one of my many decisions I made when I was completely inexperiecned with balancing / modding in general. At first the special government reforms were intended as fun gimmick reforms, which change the way you play your nation completely and were optional.

Then I thought I could use the government reform system to represent how much the character of your Touhou ruler changes the government (for example with Remilia your government becomes more and more militaristic, while with Satori your state becomes more and more of a puppet master...). To make this working I added a ton of government refroms, but they crashed my game, they were unnecessary or they were just uninspiring. In the end I scrapped this idea - with exception the most crucial government changes at tier 6.

As time goes by I made these reforms slowly to a core of the identity of a nation - the horde mechanic for Marisa would be a good example for this.

Although the special governments are quite late I have the feeling they are balanced at the 6th place and give still this feeling of how much your Touhou ruler changes your government. However, I could see a rework for the governments reforms too, but this will take time. I am currently back at studying in the university - and this consumes so much time...

Comrade Flan lähetti viestin:

xkuripuri lähetti viestin:

I noticed that several nations get a new government 'type at tier 6, but can I ask why its tier 6? Some of these, like Marisa's, completely change how she would play, but it only comes up pretty late into the game.

This is honestly a good question...

My decision to put the special government reforms at tier 6 is one of my many decisions I made when I was completely inexperiecned with balancing / modding in general. At first the special government reforms were intended as fun gimmick reforms, which change the way you play your nation completely and were optional.

Then I thought I could use the government reform system to represent how much the character of your Touhou ruler changes the government (for example with Remilia your government becomes more and more militaristic, while with Satori your state becomes more and more of a puppet master...). To make this working I added a ton of government refroms, but they crashed my game, they were unnecessary or they were just uninspiring. In the end I scrapped this idea - with exception the most crucial government changes at tier 6.

As time goes by I made these reforms slowly to a core of the identity of a nation - the horde mechanic for Marisa would be a good example for this.

Although the special governments are quite late I have the feeling they are balanced at the 6th place and give still this feeling of how much your Touhou ruler changes your government. However, I could see a rework for the governments reforms too, but this will take time. I am currently back at studying in the university - and this consumes so much time...

Ah I see! That makes sense. I can understand that changing and adding things is certainly going to take some time, your studying time aside, I think a big part of this is just the mod has a lot of nations added to it, which can make trying to have them all be different/unique a pretty big challenge!

I'm thinking it might be best to just take each nation one at a time. Trying to do them all at once is going to be pretty overwhelming, as I think there's over 20, right?

In regards to a bug I've noticed, I saw that if a battle takes place at the Road of Reconsideration, that the armies seem to disappear and I couldn't find them. They reappear when the battle is over, so I guess its just something wonky in the coordinates, map modding isn't something I'm very aware of. Sea battles in the Sanriku Coast I think also have the ships end up fighting on the land of Gensokyo as well.

While I know I just talked about taking each nation one at a time, maybe a plan to rework the Human Capital to be built around Touhou leaders? From what little I've looked into modding, with elections is possible to have specific leaders, so you could for example have like Byakuren, Keine and Akyuu as election canidates or something.

Consider the government reform, I think it works quite well right now. I am a non-Dharma player and can unlock the reform decision at tech 10, which I think is a good timing. I`m not sure if having Dharma dlc will make it earlier or later, but I`m sure that tech 10 is the best time that all the countries can unlock all their national ideas and show their full identity in game. Before tech 10, the national ideas cannot be fully unlocked, and the unique character of all countries are not fully shown, so I think we shouldn`t make it earlier.

I agree that we should update only one nation one time. One problem is, not all the nations are easy to design a mission tree as long as Marisa`s. Perhaps some country will only have a few unique mission. Well that may rely on more people`s contribution to make them more completed.

As for the Human Capital, I have the same question since I visited the old version mod. I`m confusing why the previous modder didn`t add Byakuren`s own faction, but seems to have fused it with Human Capital. In my opinion, Byakuren should have her own realm including Myouren temple and some other province, follows Th Buddhism, and Human Capital should be another faction follows Hakurei Shinto.(Because when the incident happens, their will be people from human capital request Reimu`s help and pay her, I believe that most people in Human Capital should be following Hakurei Shinto) Unfortunately, that can only be fixed when a bigger map is created. For the ruler of Human Capital, I think a republic government fits well, and there is no evidence showing that Keine or Akyuu should be ruler. In my opinion, Keine is just a teacher and a guardian of human capital, but not the head of village. It`s a good idea to make Keine and Akyuu special advisors though.

The same problem also appears in Tengu Realm if considered more...Miss Aya is actually just a normal crow tengu, there are many higher rank tengu above her, but all her bosses` fame cannot compare with her. Maybe we should add some special mechanic to TGU`s government to simulate that.

I suddenly have a crazy idea about Human Capital`s ruler. There is a rebellious human called the fortune-teller, who have become a jinyou and was exterminated by Reimu. There could be a event chain to make him the ruler of human capital and turn human capital to a monarchy.

yanqp1 lähetti viestin:

Consider the government reform, I think it works quite well right now. I am a non-Dharma player and can unlock the reform decision at tech 10, which I think is a good timing. I`m not sure if having Dharma dlc will make it earlier or later, but I`m sure that tech 10 is the best time that all the countries can unlock all their national ideas and show their full identity in game. Before tech 10, the national ideas cannot be fully unlocked, and the unique character of all countries are not fully shown, so I think we shouldn`t make it earlier.

I agree that we should update only one nation one time. One problem is, not all the nations are easy to design a mission tree as long as Marisa`s. Perhaps some country will only have a few unique mission. Well that may rely on more people`s contribution to make them more completed.

As for the Human Capital, I have the same question since I visited the old version mod. I`m confusing why the previous modder didn`t add Byakuren`s own faction, but seems to have fused it with Human Capital. In my opinion, Byakuren should have her own realm including Myouren temple and some other province, follows Th Buddhism, and Human Capital should be another faction follows Hakurei Shinto.(Because when the incident happens, their will be people from human capital request Reimu`s help and pay her, I believe that most people in Human Capital should be following Hakurei Shinto) Unfortunately, that can only be fixed when a bigger map is created. For the ruler of Human Capital, I think a republic government fits well, and there is no evidence showing that Keine or Akyuu should be ruler. In my opinion, Keine is just a teacher and a guardian of human capital, but not the head of village. It`s a good idea to make Keine and Akyuu special advisors though.

The same problem also appears in Tengu Realm if considered more...Miss Aya is actually just a normal crow tengu, there are many higher rank tengu above her, but all her bosses` fame cannot compare with her. Maybe we should add some special mechanic to TGU`s government to simulate that.

I suddenly have a crazy idea about Human Capital`s ruler. There is a rebellious human called the fortune-teller, who have become a jinyou and was exterminated by Reimu. There could be a event chain to make him the ruler of human capital and turn human capital to a monarchy.

With Dharma I think it takes on average, over 110 years to reach Tier 6 Reforms. This is adjusted depending on your Government Reform point gain, but that's about the 'average'. This puts you around tech 12ish, maybe?

And yeah, true not every nation needs a nation tree as diverse or in-depth as Marisa's. That being said, i'm not sure how possible it is to actually finish her Hourai Elixir stuff before she'd die of old age, since she starts the game at 23, and I've seen her die in-game around 40 or 50.

As for the Human Capital, while I agree they may not make good leaders, it was more in line with thinking that for a Touhou-based mod, keeping the leaders as known Touhou characters might be a good idea. It's like Aya being the leader of the Tengu Nation, even though she's a servant to the Lord Tenma. Tenma is someone we've only seen in a siholutte and know nothing about, so its more appealing to say Aya is the leader, since she's a character anyone who knows Touhou, would know.

Related to Marisa's thing a bit, while I know the Development is high from the original mod, I almost think it could be worth lowering. Part of the expansion issues is that the amount of Aggressive Expansion you gain is related to how much Development you take at a time, and many of the Gensokyo provinces are pretty highly developed... especially the Capitals, many of which eclipse the most developed vanilla provinces like Beijing or Milan. While in some way it fits (since Gensokyo was formed in 1885, and we're basing on characters from the 2000's timeframe), it might due with lowering the overall level since Gensokyo is also kind of stuck in an 1880's Japan look.

Though I could see something to make certain nations get Development Costs decreased at some point, maybe. Just kind of thinking aloud.

Well 110 years might be long, but not a problem. It should not be earlier than tech 10, but should be fine to be a little bit later.

Because Marisa can only live for about max 50 years, it is nearly impossible to complete all the mission tree in that short time without cheating. But don`t worry, when you finish all the mission tree, a event will give you choice to respawn Marisa. (And it is really exciting to see Alice get her Marisa back XD)

I`m not saying I dissatisfy with Aya as ruler. I do agree she should be the ruler of Tengu Realm, but I think it is also necessary to add special mechanics to show her real status. (That can also be the uniqueness of Tengu`s government)

As for the development of Gensokyo, I think it is hard and not so necessary to be reduced. First reason is the development is the work of old modder, we are not so reasonable to change it too much. Second, considering the proper development will be another huge work, but that is not so important compared with adding new mission and government reforms. Third, I don`t think making Gensokyo so easy to be united is a good idea. With a bigger map in the future, the province might get refined though.
I admit the aggressive expansion is high in Gensokyo, but at least it is not as high as in HRE. You can also easily get more profit by conquering province. There are also many permanent claims and special CBs which can lower the AE. Actually I think AE might be the only hardness of this mod, because all the Gensokyo nations are overpowered in general. If you can find way to handle it, uniting Gensokyo will not be a hard work.
There is a battle report shows a record of uniting Gensokyo in 150 years, I myself can unite Gensokyo in 70-100 years. I think 150 years is a proper estimated time to unite Gensokyo. Even you consider to achieve world controller, the overpowered national ideas and economic of Gensokyo will make it not very hard.

yanqp1 lähetti viestin:

Well 110 years might be long, but not a problem. It should not be earlier than tech 10, but should be fine to be a little bit later.

Because Marisa can only live for about max 50 years, it is nearly impossible to complete all the mission tree in that short time without cheating. But don`t worry, when you finish all the mission tree, a event will give you choice to respawn Marisa. (And it is really exciting to see Alice get her Marisa back XD)

I`m not saying I dissatisfy with Aya as ruler. I do agree she should be the ruler of Tengu Realm, but I think it is also necessary to add special mechanics to show her real status. (That can also be the uniqueness of Tengu`s government)

As for the development of Gensokyo, I think it is hard and not so necessary to be reduced. First reason is the development is the work of old modder, we are not so reasonable to change it too much. Second, considering the proper development will be another huge work, but that is not so important compared with adding new mission and government reforms. Third, I don`t think making Gensokyo so easy to be united is a good idea. With a bigger map in the future, the province might get refined though.
I admit the aggressive expansion is high in Gensokyo, but at least it is not as high as in HRE. You can also easily get more profit by conquering province. There are also many permanent claims and special CBs which can lower the AE. Actually I think AE might be the only hardness of this mod, because all the Gensokyo nations are overpowered in general. If you can find way to handle it, uniting Gensokyo will not be a hard work.
There is a battle report shows a record of uniting Gensokyo in 150 years, I myself can unite Gensokyo in 70-100 years. I think 150 years is a proper estimated time to unite Gensokyo. Even you consider to achieve world controller, the overpowered national ideas and economic of Gensokyo will make it not very hard.

Maybe it should depend on the government reform, something like Marisa's seems a bit odd to be so late into the game, since she's kind of going from a "proper" government to a roving band of looting and razing. In comparison to say, Tenshi or Yuuka's Reform which turn them into (parts) of the unique Russian Tsardom thing.

Some kind of unique mechanic for the Tengu could be a thing I suppose, though at the moment I can't think of something that would seem fitting...

I think parts of what contribute to Gensokyo being so overpowered is a combo of the land being more developed then most of the rest of the world, on top of the nations all having extremely powerful National Ideas. This, I think, means that while conquering Gensokyo can take a long time, and is pretty hard, once you do so, I don't think much else in the game can really stop you... though I'm not too sure on that yet, because I haven't got that far.

It might be a lot more work, but I think reducing Gensokyo's overall Development and maybe retweaking National Ideas may not be a terrible idea? There'd be more flexibility in adapting the game to the "post-Gensokyo" ideas, as well as during it. With lower Development, for example, there could be some nations with missions to allow Vassalizing of certain factions to peacefully absorb them (i.e. Marisa or Reimu could vassal and annex the other, or Yukari and Yuyuko, etc.)

Lower Development would also make the Touhou nations less prone to all getting a Golden Age immediately, since most of them already have 2 out of the 3 Age objectives done off the bat, and can easily get a third in a single war.

Admittedly this is probably a lot of work, and it'd be best to approach it one at a time, I think. Though the Development thing probably has to be decided and done all at once.

On a different note, do we know if Flan minds if anyone decides to change a nation themselves? I could maybe try picking one that they aren't working on and see what I could do with it. I think it could be interesting to give more tech groups as well, but this would be mostly to 'enforce' unit diversity since right now I can see the idea was to give different units for different factions, but there isn't actually enough for everyone. Like Forest of Magic doesn't actually have Alice's dolls until tech 9, even though her early missions are all about getting materials for Alice's doll army!