well marvin i dont know you but i must say i love you (no ♥♥♥♥). Your mods are amazing, they blend so well with the lore of the game sometimes you may confuse them for actual in-game characters of red hook. i can not play a game of DD without your mods becouse the game does not feel the same.

Pd; may i suggest a new character? well, i really love vampires and its a shame that the Vanilla game or Crims.Court does not include such playable archetype. I know that in the workshop are some vampire class mods but they are 1, not good designed 2,very brocken or unbalanced
i have had some ideas for exaple her looks could reseable Elizabeth Báthory (the crazy bloody hungarian countess That belived that the secret to eternal youth was in the blood of virgins) or maybe marie antoinet (the decadent and careless french queen that at the time when her people was famishing she hosted lavish and expensive banquets )
she could have the crimson course from the get go and you would have to feed her with the blood or she will get weaker, maybe she will receive debuffs if you have the torch level to high or even a uncontrolable transformation like the more you fight the more bloodlust and stress she gets (to the point that she may turn against you in a berserk rage?????).


anyways, i am really looking foward to see more of your content. : )

I'm actually finding managing stress on this character a bit ridiculious. Maybe thats intended or I'm just too obssessed with keeping stress levels low, but I feel like I *need* to have a stress healer even in short dungeons. With a dedicated stress healer I spend far too much time managing stress and many battles I feel like I'm short one hero because one of them is so busy trying to keep her stress down.

And if the enemy targests her for stress damage or crits once too often its a lost cause. I might just have to work with her more, but I honestly can't imagine taking her on a long dungeon.

On a more positive note I do enjoy everything else about the character. The abilities are interesting and when I do decide to say "♥♥♥♥ it" to stress management she usually manages to kick ass, making her useful for bosses or other tough fights. The story is interesting and the art is pretty amazing, the whole ghost girl aspect is a fun bit of play and twin sisters switching bodies is a very creative concept.

Really cool mod. I will say though, after taking her out for a test run in a veteran cove dungeon with a mark/blight team, I will say her Trespass skill is completely broken. My squad ran into a collector and it barely lasted 4 turns even with a crit life steal heal. Maybe make it consume the mark after being used or lower its range or something, because right now im tempted to hire 3 more sisters and run them on a team with any unit that can mark (90ish guarenteed damage a turn sounds quite tempting). At least I know who im taking to the Darkest Dungeon with me now.

Amazing as always, Marvin. Absolutely perfect art and concept. But as vem has already said, i feel like trespass in particular is overtuned. Does too many things. Probably doesnt need to be usable from rank 4 and the high crit chance, seeing as a crits are already guaranteed vs marks (Which is absurdly strong with multiple sisters) Other than that, you have truly outdone yourself with this one, the quality of your mods is on another level.

I assume that the Crit from Traspass is to counter a bit, some of that stress dmg, she receives. which is pretty good, so removing it would be somewhat bads. :S

Originally posted by Chaos Neptune {Purple Heart}:

I assume that the Crit from Traspass is to counter a bit, some of that stress dmg, she receives. which is pretty good, so removing it would be somewhat bads. :S

I get that its a counter, but because of the speed it takes to bring things down and the innate stress healing of getting crits it means almost nothing, some of my squad had stress increasing trinkets and none of them surpassed about 20ish stress, she herself might have had like 10 stress, and this was with a collector fight. Its an interesting way of countering a characters innate strength, but when you're killing stuff that quickly it really doesnt mean much in the grand scheme of things, since anything else that causes stress will probably be the first unit you target with a mark and thus will die almost instantly.

Hell I even took her to fight the Miller and none of my characters ended up being afflicted, even though one of my characters was getting +20% stress from trinkets. Its barely a counter and more a minor annoyance with trespass, if I can even call it that. Im not even sure why I bother with any ability that isnt trespass tbh.

I agree with Vem. Trespass is THE skill you want to use. Just get someone to mark and you are set. I would see trespass losing armor piercing or making it limited use per battle. Currently, Trespass is the best dmg skill and downside of getting stressed a lot is negligable.

Looks great and I like the concept but it seems... over-developed? We get it, you've got the best class mods ;) I agree with others who are suggesting Sisters be simplfied a bit. The complexity does not add to the experience IMO, and the concept could be achieved in a simpler more elegant way. The constant buffing/debuffing and multiple effects means her turns take longer and there is more to track on one character than all the others combined. Its not super rewarding when I pull off her combos or strategies because those are all things I can achieve with much less effort with another class for far less risk and without requiring a dedicated stress healer.

Its also distracting that the ghost sister is visible all the time, even during idle animation. Again, over developed concept IMO. The ghost should show up during certain actions/animations and of course on possesion. The fact that she is haunted mentally by her sister is way more horrifying and on theme than her being followed around by a literal spectre that everyone can see.

(Sorry for my terrible English, it is my secondary language)

The hype for this mod was real. And you, as always, managed to surpass all of my expectations. The visual design is stunning. I really admire your work and dedication. The thing I like about the visuals the most is sister's facial expressions. It shows a lot of character in such a simple way. In my opinion, it is much better than shrouded Falconeer or masked Thrall/Seraph. The only thing that I personally dislike about Sisters appearence is that the color palette feels just a bit off. I am talking about alternate skins. Especially the pinkish-red skin is kinda strange because it contrasts just a bit with the ghost. It is sad, that the ghost color is independent of the character color.

The balance is fine. The latest Weed Out tweak is a healthy improvement to the class. However I think, that Trespass and (maybe) Weed Out should not be able to hit rank 4. Also the debuff that is applied after casting a spell feels really punishing. The buff, however, is not so rewarding. I would suggest tweaking the thresholds for the debuff, for example making it +25% or +30% stress per cast. In the current form of +50% it makes stress mount really hard and really fast without the Jester or stress reducing quirks/trinkets. Also it would be great if Blossom could be used in rank 4.

Overall, great mod. It feels really inspired. Can't wait for the Sunken city!

Like all the other reviews above: ABSOLUTELY AMAZING CLASS!

*Aestetics:

Unlike some of the other reviews above I actually like the floating spirit sister - which is unusal for me as I happen to like low fantasy, "period", or "lovecraftian" classes. That being said her lore, the dialogue, and art works very well with the ambiance of DD. The dialogue between the two is cheeky yet dark. Double ups! I love that her sprite changes to something sinister, yet familiar, when she becomes possessed.

*First impressions:

When I was playing her, at first, it was difficult for me to understand why I should consider combo-ing / managing her stress buff / debuff modifiers especially when I enjoy buliding parties which focus down monsters very quickly (3 turns). So the buff/debuff stress is admittedly still a bit wonky when youre switching back and forth frequently. Honestly, I absolutely love that mechanic idea but its application is a bit cumbersome. Which is understandable considering she is a "shape shifting" class like the abomination, warewolf, and lamia. More on this laster.

BUT!!

*Strengths:

As I began to play the class I realized the downsides for dedicating a second character or significant itemization for pary stress management is weighted against how bloody amazing the Sisters are! Not to say I think they are overpowered, yet; however, she is: extremely versitile, has both bleeds and blights, has repost strategies, can heal and destress, has utility functions(destealth and marking), has naturally high speed and dodge, is mobile, has high trap disarm, has exceptional camping skills, and is an amazingly fun character to look at and play.

Her versitility really hit me when my healer died during a suprisingly intense fight. I had her frontlining as a Tresspass build (wanted to see if it was really op op) but immediately Shroud'ed back and she "off healed" until I could stabalize the fight. And, with her as my main healer, I was able to finish the rest of a particularly arduous yet rewarding dungeon with only three toons!

*Diverse Party Compositions:

So when im back in town and am building/experimenting teams to go traverse dungeons is she is always in the back of my mind wondering will she fit? Yes. And I like that. I like seeing how developers allow classes to feel and be completely unique and yet bring value to bleed, blight, and mark teams, for example.

For example: one of my mods includes an item which allows my Plague Doctor to increase bleed damage to marked targets on his melee attack. I dont feel that this ruins the feel of the PD because he only has one narrow melee bleed skill but it is enough to allow me to consider him an option when constructing bleed parties. And I like that.

So! Is managing constant steady outputs of stress uncomfortable, yes, but she is just... wonderful. And I think the amout of stress management needed, especially in later levels, helps offset her "overpowered" -ness.

*"Good" Weaknesses:

She isn't natrually tanky. You can heal tank, sort of. She doesn't really specialize in one thing very well, like the Plague Doctor's and her blights. I think these are supposed to be and fit the class very well.

*Things I might consider a second look:

Her buff/debuff stress warrior/scholar mechanic. Its very cumborsome yet doesnt overly impact each battle so I just ignore it. Whats +4/-4 stress per battle as opposed to attempting to weed through eight lines of buff/debuff text every round and creating strategies that MIGHT help in 4-6 round fights, which for me are a bit rare. Suggestions? Most systems that work well are simple yet impactful ones. And perhaps consider how you inted the character to interact with the mechanic.

So, for example, the Lamia is primarily a minor healer/destress class but when she transforms she is a litterally ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ monster who beats the ♥♥♥♥ out of everything but the amout of stress she puts on the party is astronomical! So you want her to be in beast form for real tough fights only and for three or four rounds tops!

It seems to me that the stress managment mechanic attempts to reward players that create strategies that allow her to fluidly shift between forms often throughout the fight.

Perhaps, greatly increasing the stress penalties for staying in one form for longer than, say, two rounds and ramping up the "destress buffs" more quickly AND dropping the stress penalties for the previous form's skills once the character has shfited. This would encourage players to shift forms more constantly, penalize the players that capitalize on the considered op op "Tresspass" mechanic, and clear-out/simplfy the class' buff/debuff text box.

*Things I might tune up or down.

I might take a second look at her Disarm Trap percentage. At level one, I think, its at 40% and for someone who is supposed to be a warrior scholar (like the Occultist at 20%) im not certain it would be thematically appropriate to have her on par with a Bounty Hunter. Its not really a big deal. Maybe 30%?

*Arbitrary things I like:

The Chrimson Dance skill. Its wonky in its pary placements and targets but it makes sense and is fun to try to work with. No other skill, I think, is X0X0/X0X0.

All in all she is very fun to play! Thank you very much!

Amazing class, but i dont yet play enough to judge. At least i collect and test all her items, so i will talk about them:
Common items are fine. DoT duration not so userful most of the time, but in some scenario it can be really helpful. Especially for common item. And its unique effect, not just another "+% chance".
Uncommon in over hand just too weak. Look for example on same items for PD and Abom - Padlock of Transference have slightly better chance, but it carry HUGE stun chance. Poisoned Herb have +40% in cost of 15% hp. Its fair trade, and if you need blight in (for example) Weald - you can take it. Blightblood Crescent just "meh". Yes it have both chances, but remember - PD and over classes (like shieldbreaker, who have 30% common item) focus on 1 type od DoT, so this 40% to blight = ALL DoT damage. Sisters cant do the same, they forced to use both. Many times its much weaker (skeletons, bloodsuckers, etc) and they need at least same buff from item.
15% wont help at all vs resisted enemies, and you dont care about enemies weak to this dot, cuz base chances just enouth.
So this item simply dont worth a slot. Buff it plz, add some downside on him if you need, but it will be at least worth to carry. This trinket literally Bleed Stone without -1 SPD.
Ceremonial Sheath - not worth too. Sisters have thery low attack damage, so this 10% literally nothing. Same problem as before - its a good item on paper, but not worth a slot. I mean for rare item. If i have no good options - yeah sure, i will use it, but if i have good trinket stash - i wont use this item, cuz it literally +10 dodge.
Haunting Scroll - almost the same, this bonuses worth rare item at maximum (if you inc the downside). In general this is a userful item, - +stress skill help really well. But if you compare it for example to Bright Tambourine, which is only Rare...
CC Trinkets - they simply WORST! -20% death blow resist on low hp character, who spend alot of time on front line... This is how you lost lvl 6 characters. For example 1 spider crit, 1 spider hit = pretty dead sisters (on death door with blight and -20% DB resist). And they have high speed, so they usually "outrun" any healer who can save them. And bonuses a good, but nothing special, for sure not worth this -20% DB resist, this is insane downside (esp. on this sort of heroes).
Eternal Blossom surprisingly good - it have deathblow resist, HoT buff (really cool), for almost nonexistent cost. Really cool item, sadly it wont buff Warrior sister (but its nit-picking, again - great item).

P.S Sorry for bad english.

So, this class has some real stand-out points. Bramble's riposte-and-switch is pretty interesting and rewards the player for playing the class as it should be played. Trespass's 100% crit vs marked is hilarious and has a variety of uses from stress heal to priority-target-neutralization.

The big problem with this class is that, yeah she does these things, but she's also cumbersome. To get the most out of her as a class you would need to: use bramble to set-up riposte, then switch to warrior mode and use shroud, then switch to scholar mode and weed out, then switch back to warrior mode and use crimson dance/trespass, then reapply riposte, bleed, blight,mark, etc. etc. etc. All the while she's constantly moving around in your party and disrupting your formation and stressing everyone out, including and especially herself.

Not only does she require meticulous planning for her to give 100%, but if things go pear-shaped and your planning falls apart her lowered deathblow resists makes a crisis and even bigger crisis. She goes from being weak to being an actual liability. Also she eats camping points because each of her forms have a different camping buff skill.

Meanwhile, with a leper I could buff up with revenge and unga smash the enemy party to death in 2 turns. If I wanted healing, stress healing and dmg I could take crusader and not have to think beyond "make sure this guy heals things and smacks things with sword".

It boils down to "why take the sisters, when I could just take class X which yeah might not be as flexible but also isn't a pain in the derriere to manage?"

I really like the aesthetics of this class, the backstory is dope and the art is top-notch.
However, balance wise, I think they just don't bring enough to the table to validate the huge downside.

Overall she is very slow. And not slow as in she doesn't have enough speed but as in she requires set up. She will never be able to kill anything on the first turn as her damaging skills are all synergy skills. She can provide her own synergies but again, that's slow. You essentially spend two turns to deal one turn worth of damage. And her high speed actually work against her here as she can't reliably rely on teammates to provide her those synergies the very first turn.

So she requires time to do anything but time actively works against her as the longer a fight goes on the more stress she will accumulate. Which, I guess, was actually your goal, to create that duality.

I think the best way to illustrate why I think she is lackluster is to compare her to other (base game) classes
There are 4 I will compare them to: Abom, BH, GR and Flag.

Abom: a very obvious comparison, both are transform classes. Abom has higher raw damage in both forms, way, way, way better stress management (stress healer is not mandatory), doesn't require setting up and has a stun move. But he can't target the fourth position, has slightly lower accuracy and crit on some moves and can't heal others. But can be virtuous.

BH: just like the Sisters he also requires setting up to reach his true potential but that potential is quite a bit higher, easily outdamaging the guaranteed crit. Also has more utility allowing him to stun and reposition for others and just as flexible in positioning as the Sisters. He can only use 4 skills and has 2-3 points less in vital stats but doesn't come with the huge stress penalty. But again, can be virtuous.

GR: Almost identical stats, identical flexibility, can require a bit of set-up as well, but not mandatory, huge first turn burst potential, no stress micromanaging simulator. Again, can be virtuous. Only thing she lacks in comparison is a stress and HP healing move. Speaking of which...

Flag: The one reason I bring him up is that he has similar healing abilities. A stress healing move that increases his stress and a dothealing move that has the potential to bleed him. However, unlike the Sisters, both of these have upsides. While a non-afflicted Flagellant is better than a Rapturous one, his affliction is actually a double-edged sword and has positive benefits, unlike the Sisters' forced affliction, which, as far as I can see, only has downsides.
And bleeding a Flag is also not a horrible thing, as a low HP Flag gets buffed and can use his more powerful moves. Also, Flag doesn't stress out your entire party when he "switches into" attack mode.

So in conclusion, I don't think I managed to get my point across, but it's that all of these classes could easily substitute the Sisters in party compositions without the headache inducing ultra stress game. And I haven't even touched upon modded classes.

Unless you aim was to create a class that is either only used for one move (Trespass), 100% requires a Jester or is only used by masochistics, I think a stress nerf is in order.
And/or implement that virtue idea many people have suggested, Zen

Great work as usual, Marvin!

The biggest issue I have is that the class can't be Virtuous - unlike the Thrall and Flagellant, who get +damage when afflicted, Discordant seems like a pure downside (unless I'm missing something). On top of this, the tension between reaching 100 stress and getting afflicted or virtuous is one of the single highest high-points in Darkest Dungeon, so it feels bad to have a class that will never get that tension AND has a purely negative replacement.

Fantastic Art, Concept and the way The Sisters blend with the vanilla classes. I have been trying out your class for long now and I've come to the conclusion that it's not worth taking her out to a Dungeon.

The Sisters is a disruptive class in which only 2 skills are useful; Blossom and Tresspass. Being the latest a very good usable skill. The problem with these skills is that they come to the expense of suffering high stress and there are a ton of other champions who do the same with no punishment. As off today, I don't see the point of playing The Sisters despite of the amazing visuals and cool concept. She wreaks havoc on her own team. You need to rely on a stress healer and everything in the party revolves around her. For very little reward.

The main problem is that once you use tresspass, you're stuck in position 1 unless you use Shroud in which then you move to position 3, thus rendering Crimson Dance useless. This is the main problem, her own skills clash with themselves and this is something that a professional developer wouldn't conceive. A vanilla character's skills would fit together creating a thematic set of skills.

My proposal is to change Shroud's position swapping to match those in which Crimson Dance is usable. So you can Acttually "Dance" in a rotation managing the stress at the same time.

For instance, Shroud moves to position 2 instead of 3 so you can use crimson dance afterwards.

I would also tweak stress numbers, rounding them down a couple of digits. For example, producing 1-2 stress on party members rather than 2-3 would make a massive difference.

That would make The Sisters a high-risk-high-reward class fun to play, instead of a ridiculous risk very little reward as she is now.

Take into account that I have played hundreds of dungeons with Her and in almost 100% of the cases, she gets afflicted in the longer runs. In order to manage her stress I need to cut my party's DPS down, and that's not what we want, is it?

Please consider my proposals and I will take her for a spin again with my pleasure.

I am a big fan of your work, hence this feedback.