STAR WARS™ Empire at War: Gold Pack

STAR WARS™ Empire at War: Gold Pack

Awakening of the Rebellion 2.11.9: Jump To Hyperspace
General Brooks  [developer] Jan 15, 2021 @ 4:54am
Discussion about @Commander-LVJ's views on the mod, to avoid spamming the main chat
Others are welcome to add their views on the issues in question. I was thinking of copying the start of the discussion here for others to read, but that's already 4 pages of text..
Last edited by General Brooks; Jan 15, 2021 @ 4:58am
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Showing 1-15 of 22 comments
General Brooks  [developer] Jan 15, 2021 @ 5:05am 
Firstly, I don't think you're correct regarding the different names. You might be finding that individual squad members have different names come up when hovering over them, to illustrate their role in the squad, but the squad name overall is consistent.

Secondly, gameplay comes before lore. A big part of our design philosophy is as I said to force the player to make difficult choices. Ultimately, different mods cater for different players. If someone doesn't like having to do that, I would suggest that this isn't the right mod for them. There is still plenty of opportunity for a player to bring in their own approaches and strategies as to how they play.

Please point out the units you consider superfluous. We are fairly confident that every unit has its own role / place and we are determined to ensure that any unit which doesn't, isn't in the game.
General Brooks  [developer] Jan 15, 2021 @ 5:13am 
Regarding upgrades / downgrades, it seems perfectly reasonable that rebel forces could add or remove equipment from an area to turn a camp into a HQ or vice versa.
Obviously we are aware that things can be sold, we've been modding this game for a very long time. However, the build bar does have limited capacity so it makes sense to have upgrades rather than separate buildings, especially when something is replacing something else, eg the camp is now a HQ, a player can't have both.

With upgrading units, we're only actually talking about the upgrades for the rebel dreadnaught. This is a nice feature because the upgrade for the unit is available a tech level earlier than if the more advanced version was purchased stand alone, which rewards players for keeping their early game units alive. Furthermore, we are able to make it substantially cheaper to upgrade the existing unit than to sell it and then buy a new one. Nothing can be retrofitted willy nilly because you need to bring the right unit to the right shipyard and then have the right tech. We have a system here which is well liked and works well, so we aren't planning to change that
General Brooks  [developer] Jan 15, 2021 @ 5:17am 
The planetary upgrade suggestion isn't possible code wise as far as I know.
Dark troopers are already in game. Crawlers might make it in for imperial remnants later on.
I disagree about missiles penetrating shields, they fit a good role right now.
We're also pretty happy about the current buildings that are present, the command centres sound like they'd overlap with existing buildings that already work quite well.
Commander-LVJ Jan 16, 2021 @ 12:41pm 
+MaxiM

+-ICO- Mr. President

+General Brooks

+Than's Vans Inc.

+Steiner0815

+ThatOneBullet

+darth_wolf

+Sly442

So...Before I say ANYTHING else I would just like to say that I did not realize that this sort of a in-mod discussion forum existed: I had seen the "popular discussions" tab but until now I had not realized what that actually meant: and to be perfectly honest I really do not know what I was thinking it was; maybe I thought that it was discussions that people linked to the mod?..but if that was so yes I am asking my self (now) well wait a minute, why did I not just write what I wanted and then ask you all to take a look at it if you wanted...I really have no real answer to that question. The only (and yes I mean this) hypothesis I can come up with is a combination of me being on steam before the workshop became a thing so not really being used to all of it's features, not really doing anything else but leaving at least fairly short comments before this, not feeling very well and not being able to really think properly because of it, and I guess going on way longer then I thought I would: in any case I just want to say that I did not mean to handle that as I did so from now on since you have created this discussion before I got around to it then of course I will just post everything I have to say suggestion wise at the vary least here...and if I have caused inconvenience I apologize.

P.S. Oh yes and I guess I should just say that as long as it may be I would suggest posting everything that has already been said just so that people can catch up if they are interested.
Last edited by Commander-LVJ; Jan 16, 2021 @ 2:04pm
Commander-LVJ Jan 16, 2021 @ 2:01pm 
So firstly you are correct I had been looking at the names of the individual soldiers which is a pretty cool feature now that I am aware of it.

It is good to hear that you are trying to put gameplay first: to clarify; all I was talking about was another way of spreading the units out a bit tech tree wise.

So while it may be a matter of wording it really does get to the point that I am trying to make which is that if the) as the developer(s) of a game or mod try to force the player to do anything then you or whomever are literally trying to force the player to play the game the way you want them to play it: what I would suggest (if you are not doing so already) is to try to think of it more along the lines of trying to put the player into situations where they may need to make difficult decisions rather then trying to force them to do so outright as it were: for just as with something like the Company of Heroes 2 commander system if the player only has so many viable strategies then repetition will occur in fairly short order: however just as with something like the Company of Heroes 2 all units mod; if the player is given a good number of fleshed out options then truly "nothing happens the same way twice".

As for at least technically superfluous units: while it would take quite awhile to make a comprehensive list I can say that in short at least half the ships, a good third of the infantry, and about at least a quarter of the vehicles could certainly be considered so; however my whole point is that just as you already have in some cases done; there is nothing wrong with having slightly different units that fill similar roles; if only in different ways say a tracked tank and a repulsorlift tank for example.

A link to the COH2 all units mod for reference:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=350031348&searchtext=all+units
Last edited by Commander-LVJ; Jan 16, 2021 @ 2:05pm
diaper for life Jan 16, 2021 @ 8:11pm 
if any changes i would like to be able to make a custom hero and have special type of troopers ie snow shore etc .....
Last edited by diaper for life; Jan 16, 2021 @ 8:14pm
General Brooks  [developer] Jan 17, 2021 @ 3:41am 
@Commander-LVJ, I play a lot of CoH and I appreciate that comparison. I would say that we're aiming for somewhere between those two points, of doctrines and of the all units mod. On the one hand we don't want players to feel like they are limited to only a couple of options, and I don't think they are. Plenty of players seem to have very different strategies, especially for ground battles (and we're reworking space to be similar).
On the other hand, we want our factions to remain distinct and to play differently. If every faction could fill every niche, then you might as well be playing as the same faction because you aren't having to adapt to the strengths and weaknesses of that faction.
When we think of new units, we want players to think about the possibilities that adds to the game and how it would change their armies. We wouldn't add snow troopers as a separate unit for example (@brandon) because there's no difference in their combat role to regular stormtroopers. We're better off adding a skin (which in this case is already in game).
diaper for life Jan 17, 2021 @ 7:44am 
@general_brooks if u look at star wars legion snow has frames , shore has mortars etc.... so i would like to have that. https://tabletopadmiral.com/legion/empire/c08 to see some ideas thanks
Commander-LVJ Jan 17, 2021 @ 3:22pm 
So in regards to upgrades: yes it does absolutely make sense that a faction would invest resources into improving an existing facility; what does NOT make any sense in any way shape or form is the "downgrade" option: if only because well not only would it not make any sense for a faction to just suddenly decide to say (as a metaphor) tear down a wing of a barracks that they had spent time and money in building; however though perhaps an even more relevant point can be summed up in a question "where is the money coming from?" meaning that it would take money to do such a thing and they would not be magically getting money back from it: that's where just outright selling comes in, again it is a tier system; and such things are set up the way that they are for some very good reasons: this being one of them.

In regards to the unit "upgrades" so basically what you are saying there in a very long roundabout way is that you are letting the player cheat. See, unless given to the player during a campaign (which I do not really like either) "even" I know that because of the nature of tech tree gameplay the only thing that a player being able to get something before they can get it in the tech tree can be considered is cheating if only by definition: look at the create system in command $ conquer for example; absolutely fun and sometimes even hilarious in a casual game; but would never be used in an actual PVP match (if you will) if only because there cheats, it would ruin the gameplay entirely: and lets face it the C&C series gameplay has enough problems already;).
Commander-LVJ Jan 17, 2021 @ 3:41pm 
So if the other structures (e.g. shield generator, scatter shield, turbolaser towers etc.) could not be placed on the planet without taking up a build slot then how can the power generator be so?..and can someone tell me what this is about?;)

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2365566597
Commander-LVJ Jan 17, 2021 @ 5:16pm 
About the shields: well see the whole thing with the way that they are set up in the mod now is that they are basically useless: and this would bring up a number of questions; mainly if the shields were to be that useless then:
A. why would they invest in technology to take them down (e.g. ion cannons) if they could (and would) build massive missile batteries on all of their ships and just engage each other at extremely long rages and more to the point well why would they bother with shields at all if it would not matter in the first place?..well they wouldn't.
B. Well then why would they have ships designed with weaponry so heavily focused on taking down shields?..remember while the "laser" cannons may not be the most effective at draining them, they would still have them for a very good reason; in short, they would be a trade off something like half effective against shields; half effective against hull: why would they have these things that would be stopped be shields if they could just fire right through them at long range?..they wouldn't What about fighters?..you might naively ask; well they would just use specialized anti-air\air to air missiles; done.
C. Well then surely the shields on land if only logically and reasonably and if only for the sake of consistency seeing as how the shields on ships could not stop missiles then in this case they would not be able to stop missiles either and as a result they would not be used either right?;) Oh wait they can!?..and they are!?. Oh well of course they do BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT SHIELDS ARE THERE FOR!
Now: I have no idea what you were thinking or going for here; but I can tell you that whatever it is, it does not work, and IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE...PERIOD. While I totally appreciate and agree with you about not abiding by the lore too heavily; and while I do not know too much about the lore myself; "even" I know that the still needs to have a basic respect for the universe that this is in, and by extension the rules that apply to it. These would be professional armies; not idiots. And yes the shields would stop missiles, lasers, ion cannons, and maybe even proton torpedoes; if only because that it the only thing that would make any sense! And while I do not in any way shape or form expect you to take or use all of my suggestions; it is taking a lot of effort to write these comments and I have got to say that in all honesty; if you are not willing to look past your own ego(s) for a second to at least fix this one thing: then I am done wasting my time here.
General Brooks  [developer] Jan 18, 2021 @ 4:18am 
Regarding the downgrading of buildings, there is a reason most players don't do it very often. It can make sense though. Think of downgrading a barracks as switching the building back to training more basic troops and removing some of the advanced equipment, which saves costs elsewhere. You're not going to do it very often, but you can do it.

For the dreadnaught upgrades, no, this isn't cheating by any means because the ships aren't fundamentally overpowered or anything like that. Different factions have strengths and weaknesses and that includes certain units being good for their tech level or stage in the game. Tech 0, Empire is ahead with star destroyers, so if the rebels can occasionally upgrade some cruisers that's not an issue. Again, I would suggest playing much more of the mod before trying to judge balance issues like this.
General Brooks  [developer] Jan 18, 2021 @ 4:20am 
The power generator is a unique case, it could do that in the base game. I don't know how to make other structures also do that, and it might not be possible. I'm also not sure its something we want because again we want players to have to choose between bulking up their defences and expanding their production on a given planet, rather than just doing both.
General Brooks  [developer] Jan 18, 2021 @ 4:29am 
As for the shields, frankly I simply disagree about them being useless, and I know most of our players do too. Being able to deny your opponent bombing runs for example is incredibly strong in the case of the shutter shield, and a base shield can absolutely turn the tide of a battle.
I don't understand why you feel so strongly about them and I don't appreciate accusations that our disagreement over this is somehow down to my having an ego. I'm engaging with your views. Yes I disagree on many things, but to an extent we have to agree to disagree on some issues. We also take feedback from huge numbers of players and whilst I respect your viewpoint, if everyone else that's spoken to us is fine with something then we're not about to change it because of you.
We have an ideas channel on our discord where anyone is welcome to post fleshed out ideas / suggestions for the mod and the community can then vote on the idea. You are absolutely welcome to contribute ideas there, it might allow us to both get a better impression of what lots of people think about this issue rather than just the two of us.
Commander-LVJ Jan 18, 2021 @ 4:47pm 
Well...and here we are: the only reason money can be made from selling an entire structure is that they scrape and selvage it, they would not nor would it make sense for them to try to remove a piece of a facility because that would take money and they would still need the facility itself; what they would actually do is leave everything intact and just use or not use it for certain things as the case may be.

The shields in all honesty are not a matter of opinion in terms of how they would function if only because of the nature of them as I had previously stated: and no I am not making an accusation; as heavy handed as it may be I am pointing something out; that if you are not willing to listen to reason then; well "your a real big (person) no one's going to tell you what to do;)" even if it is a matter of reason (in this one case) as apposed to a matter of opinion. However oh well, to each their own; I tried, it is just that it really could be so much cooler and so much more sensical: if only (in my opinion at least) you if not along with others were not standing in your own way: in any case I'm done.
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