Thanks for your input - there are points to talk about, and I'll do it when I got time.

I think the Dutch and Frisian cultures should be part of the germanic group at the start of the game since they were culturally pretty close as you said. But it gradually distanced itself from the germanic cultures. I am not an expert with cultures of that time and do not exactly know when they grew apart, but I would set the date the dutch and frisian cultures become part of their own culture group about 50-100 years after burgundy got hold of the region since the dutch culture was influenced by the french one and got stuck between beeing german and beeing french. Perhaps the flemish culture should be part of the french culture group and with the fall of burgundy it should gradually become part of the low frankish group.

Sorry for not responding immediately - everything is noted and will be addressed - your input is very important, thank you.

Hi! Since there is no Gallo (oïl-speaking Brittany) culture and that Gallo is represented by Breton in Northern Brittany, I think Paeï de Nauntt should be given the Breton culture as well.
Another solution would be to add a new Gallo culture encompassing Paeï de Nauntt, Bro Roazhon and Saint-Malo to the oïl (North French) group.
On a side note, Bro Roazhon currently has its Breton name at the start of the game while Paeï de Nauntt and Saint-Malo don't, which doesn't make sense. It should be Paeï de Resnn. And Saint-Malo should get "Paeï de" (meaning Coutry of) before its city name too since the other provinces of Brittany have it ("bro" means country in Breton), as well as the proper Gallo form of the city name, since the mod seems to go with local names for the different provinces elsewhere. So it should be: Bro Roazhon -> Paeï de Resnn and Saint-Malo -> Paeï de Saent-Malò. But I don't know if you do name changes in this mod.

Some useful links:
oïl languages map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Langues_d%27o%C3%AFl_Simoni-Aurembou.svg
Breton-speaking territory evolution: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Dialectes_Breton.png

Hmm... Interesting. I've long been looking for more material in Europe, I will look into it eventually - can't promise it in next update or even soon, but I will track the list of ideas on the main page so not to forget.

Thanks!

By Holz:

There is an interesting concept in linguistics called Sprachbund which can be summed up with the phrase "one grammar with the three lexicons". It makes so that languages from any family have similar grammar as long as there is enough contact. An example of this is Albanian, Bulgarian and Romanian. This goes beyond grammar, it also affects phonology, even if Breton and Cornish are closely related, Breton sounds a lot more like French and Cornish a lot more like English
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprachbund

This gives me the feeling that this is perhaps what the Eu4 developers were going for when they organized cultures by regions and not by genealogy. In my opinion it would be more realistic if we had both a culture map mode (somewhat similar to vanilla) and a language map mode (with the actual language families)



Response:

Holz - I understand where you're coming from, but you also misunderstand my idea. As far as I understand, this concept of ''Sprachbund'' covers inevitable language and culture exchange, that happens all the time, especially when enough time passes. When cultures live close enough together, mutual influence is what happens. However, you miss the big picture here. We're not talking about modern cultures and languages even. We're talking about first and foremost - 1356, and what can we do for realism, given the eu4 mechanics, where cultures switching from one group to another and mixing doesn't happen.

Don't be mistaken, eu4 developers were going for an easy route, especially considering all the potential ''offence'' cultural issues may cause with players. That's why they grouped it regionally, to avoid dealing with the complexities of it all, and I don't blame them, they had other things to do too.

We know for a fact that just because cultures influence each other, it doesn't necessarily bring them closer into similar culture groups. Not at all. especially back in the day, when the ethnic and tribal culture aspects were so prevalent in day to day lives. That's just not how it works. Most interesting things about cultures is that they are both flexible and resistant at the same time. They're both like a sponge, picking up everything in sight on their surface, and like a piece of stone, unmovable and unyielding in their core. When Balkan Bulgarians started to assimilate to local culture, they discarded enormous amount of things they brought from their original culture. Until it happens, the core is present. Of course, they would still bear some differences to their neighbours, but at the core they became Slavic.

Even though today, Cornish and Breton sound closer to the main language of their respective countries, it was far from truth several hundred years in the past, when globalization wasn't around, and ideas of nationhood weren't entirely present, or connected to cultures per say, with cultures struggling more around the issues of religion, dynastic rule and tribal integrity, rather than nationality and cultural identity. That's what allowed them to survive in the first place, as other cultures that inhabited these lands at some point, aren't present anymore, being assimilated or massacred, not solely on the basis of culture and language, but of religion and tribalism, when culture is less of a fully conscious, understood and studied subject, as much of a basis of everyday life and tribal understanding of one's neighbour.

By your logic, all things considered, cornish and breton cultures wouldn't even necessarily need to be present on the map at all, them being so small and close to the dominant culture of the country. That's not what we have. Back in the day especially, cornish and breton were not only related to each other, they were significantly distinct from other cultures around them, to be present as separate cultures. Unfortunately, we don't have any ways to display ''cultural influence'' in the game, as then Cornish would definitely be under English influence, and Bretons under French (langues d'oil) - I wouldn't dispute that.

In the end, it really boils down to what you understand culture to be. From my perspective, having both culture group map and language group map would be rather redundant, as I believe them to be so closely related of a topic. I don't believe that you can simply group the cultures regionally, under any circumstances, especially considering the starting date of 1356. Because then we'd have to argue what are the regions and region borders too. Because peoples were very rarely clearly divided geographically back then, with tons of border mixing, resettling, switching, etc. We can't really tell geographically where one culture ends and another starts in 1356 as much, but we know it, considering the countries and feudal politics that existed back then, and their relations. When we adjust for that, it all falls into a single image. To explain what I mean, I don't believe we can possibly make a culture group study of medieval Hungarians and Serbs in Vojvodina, without making a study of medieval Hungary and Serbia too. And their borders moved around.

Not even mentioning that culture, as a concept that includes so many things at the same time, is really useful in the game, while the language groups on their own would mean little. We'd have to place Hungarians, Finns and Ugrians in the same language group. Even though they're 90% culturally alien to each other even in 1356.

hello, my sugestions:

1. Portuguesse and galician should be moved in iberian subgroup
2. gothic from crimea should be in byzantine group or be standalone
3. yes epirus is too albanian and i think albanians should be standalone
4. for romanian, i think romanian related culture should be merged in one proper subgroup
ty

sidious307

1. Last time i checked it was.
2. That's a given - it is in the submod, it's just not updated.
3. That was a thing I wanted to do myself.
4. Problem is - they kind of are already, but since we don't truly have proper sub groups, nothing else can be done right now.

ty for qick respond

for wendish, i think they should be recalled pomeeranian and they should be part of low german group. wendish was a german word for slavs,but at this time they were already germanised or they became more and more german during eu 4 period.

Maybe, scottish, welsh, briton and irish shouldbeout together in same celtic subgroup.

for russian,idon't understand why novgorodian culture exist.

sidious307

You have to remember that the mod starts in 1356, at the time wendish\pomeranian slavs (pomerania is germanised slavic word) on the eastern bank of Oder river were still mostly slavic. However, they live under german rule, and are subject to "ostsiedlung" - almost everyone, including npc take this decision very fast and it's results are swift as well - usually they manage to quickly germanise all slavic and baltic people under their control - even silesian states often become german, unless they're absorbed into Bohemia early on. It depends on how you play, and how well Poland does, but usually there's nothing to worry about. By 1400-1500 ostsiedlung makes most of those provinces german anyway.

Aren't scotts, welsh, briton and irish already in 1 group? They were last time I checked.

"Novgorodian" culture exists somewhat rightfully, as "northern russians", due to Novgorod and Pskov republics making their culture somewhat different from that of central russians. It's all really subtle complicated, but to put it simply - without novgorodian culture, you might also decide to not distinguish between Ruthenian and Russian cultures as well. Which at the time was basically the same word, only distinguished now in English because Moscow unified "Russia". It's a mixed bag.

maybe wendish should be west slavic instead. i didn't play yet with your mod becaus isn'tup ate for the new mtw. i just seeculture in2.51. maybe is why i doredondant suggestions. pardon me friend !

in 2.51ortuguesses and spanish are seperated

I guess I haven't checked new version in a while. Now I remember Wendish are germans, west of Oder. The thing is - pomeranian culture appears later as far as I remmeber, so the devs just picked a name that suits the bill in 1356 - hence "wendish".