Age of Wonders III

Age of Wonders III

V-Mods: Builders
Kestral  [developer] May 12, 2018 @ 5:51pm
Cost Balancing Discussion
Current thoughts:

Note: The Orcish Ziggurat tooltip says “Gold, Mana, and Knowledge” but actually gives happiness, not knowledge.

On Consuming the Builder
Consuming the builder to create a gold mine feels good - more balanced and interesting to me than the alternative, since it makes increasing gold income something that a City must do. However I don’t like that gold is unique in this respect; it’s slightly counter-intuitive that this one resource should be a special case.
After some reflection, I think basic structures that produce Gold, Mana, and Knowledge - i.e. the three resources that accumulate to your empire and not just the city itself - should all consume the builder and take 1 turn. So builders can spend time to improve a city, but it takes a city’s time to improve the empire.

Food
Current Price: 5g per 10 production, 2 Turns.
Recommended Price: 7g per 10 production, 2 Turns.
Farms are super useful even from the very beginning of the game - mainly just due to the low price. Recommend to boost cost from 5g per 10 pop to 7g per 10, just so it's not quite such a no-brainer in the opening turns to build this over anything else.

Gold
Current Price: 25g x production, 1 Turn, consumes builder
Recommended Price: 20g x production, 1 Turn, consumes builder
Instead of thinking "when will I break even" I prefer to think in terms of “time to double your money”. Priced at 25g per gold produced + the builder means it takes close to 40 turns to double your money invested even with the best morale...this seems high, compared to the time it (generally) takes a new city grow and pay back double the gold invested in its settler and buildings. Of course that depends on tons of other factors that can boost the growth or income of new cities, as well as the territory involved. But that’s the choice a person who wants more gold has to make: builder or settler. And right now settler is winning by just a little too much IMO. Recommend price to be reduced just slightly to 20g per gold produced.

Mana
Current Price: Confusing! Seem like they all cost a total of 250 resources regardless of yield?
Recommended Price: (5g+12m) x production, 1 Turn, consumes builder
Considering that mana income is far easier to get from buildings and far less valuable to stockpile than gold, this should be less expensive and paid mostly in mana. Mainly, needs a consistent cost/yield like other resources.

Knowledge
Current Price: 20g x production, 3 Turns.
Recommended Price: (7g+10m) x production, 1 Turn, consumes builder
Recommend to balance this closer to the costs of knowledge generating buildings (including consuming the settler), and include mana as a big part of the cost.

Production
Current Price: 30g x production, 3 Turns.
Recommended Price: 12g x production, 3 Turns
Production is cool…but your ability to actually use it is severely limited by (1) the fact that you can only make 1 thing per turn no matter how much you have and (2) the fact that you usually run out of gold and end up making merchandise from time to time anyway. And to go from producing “big” ~250 hammer items in 2 turns, like most metropolises naturally do, to making them in 1 turn takes a TON of production…I tried building one or two extra quarries at my capital and regretted it - made no difference at all to most build times. Given that, 30g per production is just way, way too much. The least efficient production building, Master’s Guild, adds production at ~17g each and also gives multiple other benefits including unlocking the Grand Palace. Recommend price to be 12g per production.

Happiness
Current Price: 350g + 10g per 10 happiness, 3 turns
Recommended Price: 50g + 15g per 10 happiness, 3 turns
I don’t think the value of being able to buy units from an inn is anywhere near 350g. The units themselves are over-priced and usually worse than what you can produce or summon. The happiness itself, on the other hand, is quite valuable. Even if you have max happiness already, it can give you leeway to rush production more often.

Special Buildings
Haven’t had a chance to try them all…mostly these prices seem pretty good/fair though.
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Showing 1-4 of 4 comments
Varegi  [developer] May 14, 2018 @ 5:09pm 
@jancomx

Thank you for the excellent feedback and detailed notes. It seems like you put a lot of thought into these as I can't seem to make much of a counter-argument on the suggested costs. I agree with most of them and will be rolling out an update within a few days of posting if nothing alarming happens.
(I also love the way you format your posts. I'm too lazy to look up how to do this stuff properly.:HappyMask:)


Here are a few things I would like to comment on your suggestions before I start working on fixing/tuning the mod:

Consuming Builder
I'm on the edge about having the builder be consumed in all three cases. I'm leaning on doing that for mana but not sure on knowledge.

Food (Population)
This change is a no-brainer.

Gold
I'm not really sure what to do with this one. It's a really annoying problem tbh. It is THE resource of the game. Depending on your game settings it's too cheap or expensive right now. I think I might have to leave this one as it is right now.
Reasons to keep cost as is:
- Players that end up with too much gold to deal with (Dwarves) this is an easy way to alleviate upkeeps around turn 20-50 and profit long-term...
- Games with city-building turned off it's the one of the only ways to boost gold production...
- Turtling is perhaps made too easy.
- Keep other choices more attractive and have this as a high risk investment.
Reasons to lower cost:
- It can be razed...
- It pays itself back slowly...
- ^ too slowly...

Mana
I know right :HappyMask:. It felt good on paper. I guess I tried to do something clever there. The calculation goes like this:
Mana Cost = 200*X%
Gold Cost = 250 - Mana Cost
X is either 30, 50, 80 or 100 depending on race. For example 100% for Elves, 30% for Dwarves.
I like your approach better though. Simpler. I guess I got the Engineer mindset... making things unneccessarily complicated for no reason. With cheaper production cost I will most likely end up having it consume the builder.

Knowledge
Like I mentioned, really on edge with this because having it consume the builder might make building mana/gold buildings much more attractive and overshadow this. But your cost suggestion seems on point.

Production
Well put. That seems to be a good cost. Considering the 3-turn build time that cost does make sense. EDIT: Considering that you can use it to produce more of other resources it's not such a waste.

Happiness
Here is something I mostly disagree with. I think having a place to get units from outside of the city while doing other things (buildings or more gold) in the city is actually pretty powerful. And you also get a happiness boost.
However! I don't disagree completely. I can see now that the base cost is too high. I will probably settle on your suggested cost or something close to it like:
50-150g base cost
12-25g per 10 happiness


Other news:
I've been thinking of having the Shipyard for all races, but I'm not sure what to give Humans instead.

I'll see if I remember to fix the Ziggurat description/bonus! Don't remember right now which one is faulty...:WheelOfAges:
Last edited by Varegi; May 15, 2018 @ 8:18am
Kestral  [developer] May 15, 2018 @ 8:37am 
Yeah, I see what you mean about gold...and I'll say that in my game I did eventually end up building some mines/trading posts even at the relatively high price (and because I thought it was a good idea, not just to test them). It's just in the first ~50 turns or when you have the ability to safely settle new cities that it seems bad to pay that much for a mine.

For mana / knowledge:
One other advantage of having more than just gold buildings consume the builder is that you have multiple options of how to "settle down" a builder that's built all the roads/farms/etc that you need in the area. Otherwise those poor Frostling builders might just be disbanded when you're done with them rather than make low-yield mines. For that reason, I really like the idea of gold and mana at least both consuming the builder.
However, I'm not super zealous one way or the other on knowledge either...it is a good resource to have, from the very early game right up until you finish researching everything...when it abruptly becomes completely worthless. =P Since it appears in your GUI up at the top along with mana and gold I thought it would be nice to treat it the same way mechanically. However, I think you may also be right that it would get overshadowed, since the benefits of building up knowledge by a lot (compared to what you'll naturally get) could be much less apparent. You can never have too much gold, and now that I have your item-forge I even have a useful place to dump extra mana if I'm making hundreds more a turn than I can spend on spells. :) Knowledge feels like it's less than that...and for low-yielding knowledge buildings the "balanced" price point for what they give might even be less than the cost of a builder. Either way, so long as the cost is balanced to the reward, it'll be good.

Thanks again for your hard work and awesome ideas!
Kestral  [developer] May 15, 2018 @ 12:35pm 
Also, re: What should humans get if anyone can build shipyards:
1.) Column of Champions (gives an experience level to the first units that visit it)
2.) Something else in the nautical theme, like a light-house that adds population, hammers, and maybe a bit of gold along with vision.
3.) A factory that gives a ton of production.
4.) A small passive upgrade to their builders, like +4 movement.
Varegi  [developer] May 18, 2018 @ 11:53pm 
Oh. I did not notice your last two posts in my feed for some reason.

New update is out. I took a lot of pointers from your suggestions, but didn't lower the costs as much. For example I settled to halving the cost of production buildings (15g/point) instead of the suggested (12g/point). However I also lowered the building time to 2 turns. The three "non-upkeep" resource buildings take 2 turns to build while mana/gold ones take 1 and the builder as sacrifice. Inn is kept at 3 turns and lowered the cost close to the suggested amount & the special buildings now take 4 turns etc.etc.....

I have included my excel-tables to the pictures so people can easily see everything in one place.

Thank you for your latest suggestions. Those are some good possibilities to consider for humans.
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