A question about AVNs

[strider757]

originally posted by no_so_ana Sep 19 @ 1:59 am

I like AVNs. Like many people here. Just how important is the "adult" part of AVNs for you?

The AVNs I put in the "recommended" bin all have an interesting story, spiced up by occasional sex. Specifically: The story is good enough to stand on its own, but the spicy parts add a bit more. This appeals to me more than the careful way of stearing around topics moral guardians might object to.

There are AVNs which have an excuse plot, railroading you from explicit scene to explicit scene. Not something I enjoy.

Detractors believe AVNs are just for one-handed use. Since there are AVNs which would support this view, some players might actually watch AVNs this way; though I have no idea how many. Also, just because I do AVNs different does not mean this way is in any way bad.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you care more about story than sexy. or the other way around?

[strider757]

no_so_ana, I sort of addressed this elsewhere, but maybe got it wrong. Anyway, yes the story matters! But let's be honest...the spice matters too. In the day of the internet, inane dialogue between people who supposedly have something to do with one another is available on any of dozens of porn and streaming sites, at at little or no cost, all the time. So yeah, story is more than a little important. Even if it's told badly, or maybe even just a not great story. A story doesn't have to be epic or adventurous or anything like that if it is charming and well told.

I realize that my thoughts on this, are just that; my thoughts. That others might think differently...perhaps even in a one handed fashion...well, maybe those who make that claim, have a point. I have seen lovesense(?) toy support advertised with links...just sayin. I suppose the takeaway for me is both elements are necessary! VNs and AVNs are no where near as well written as kinetic novels by our favorite authors. Nor are they as visually appealing as cinema. They are...something new, who knows what they might become?

p.s. I'm going to give Steam some more time to reply...but I think we have 'a working answer' to the issue with the original post.

[kevink27]

Honestly, if I want a good story, I'll read a book. I read many books, and I have an unhealthy relationship with Audible. I watch very little tv. I enjoy the twists and turns of a good avn and the humor it can bring though my own input and interaction. Yes, maybe there is also some truth to being called a pervert. I tell you, computer graphics has come a long way since pong, lol.

I am looking into some vn's minus the "a" here late. Just downloaded a demo today that isn't very humorous, but I like how it's going so far.

[strider757]

Kevin, I gotta say I want it all! Great stories with reader choices! Great graphics and sound tracks to include voice acting...I'm a greedy bitch! Sadly, while a few have come close, most leave me wanting. Oh well, tomorrow is another day.

[kevink27]

Originally posted by strider757:

Kevin, I gotta say I want it all! Great stories with reader choices! Great graphics and sound tracks to include voice acting...I'm a greedy bitch! Sadly, while a few have come close, most leave me wanting. Oh well, tomorrow is another day.

Yeah, I hear you. There's nothing wrong with that either. I am sure in time the quality of these things will increase. In general though my thoughts are that many of the critics are being a little too harsh. Most people who know me say I live life too seriously. I just want to have a good time and have fun with these. I too want more with these games. In the serious story type, I just feel like I'm being lead around by the nose in most of them. I understand that these developers can't make scenes of virtually any outcome. I look for options that make sense to me. That's what keeps me playing the story type games For me, having a choice that matters is the most important factor. Voice acting and music is just fluff to me. Voice acting reminds me of the early porn loops, where the girls voices were overdubbed very badly. I don't see this improving anytime soon. I just cringe at this every time they add it to a story.

[strider757]

Kevin, I completely agree with you on the badly dubbed (women's) voices being so bad it's almost funny. Perhaps one day, most developers will realize that less is more in certain situations. Women DO NOT start every statement or remark with a giggle, which is not to say they don't ever giggle. I think this reflects computer nerds general lack of experience with women. Guys who sweep women off their feet do not spend time creating games about women! They spend their time sweeping the fairer sex off their feet...fuck computer games! I think developers would benefit from having a woman role play their scenes with them while they develop their stories, even if they had to hire her. Being good with Ren-Py does not provide any insight into the mind of a woman. It certainly would go a long way toward killing completely inane dialogue.

[no_so_ana]

Originally posted by strider757:

I think developers would benefit from having a woman role play their scenes with them while they develop their stories, even if they had to hire her. Being good with Ren-Py does not provide any insight into the mind of a woman. It certainly would go a long way toward killing completely inane dialogue.

Say, have you ever read any romance novel written by and aimed at women? Seen any movie about true love, written for women? Subpar dialogue is not restricted to male compute game geeks.
That said, in other media - beyond the pure fanfiction level - companies have instituted the concept of proofreaders, who are supposed to catch stuff ranging from typos ot overused cliches to completely unrealistic behaviour. In computer games, esp. visual novels, many of the smaller outfits just don't have the necessary resources for proofreading, or for the necessary corrections of the inevitable bug reports which will result. Thus VN have more than their fair share of bad writing.

[no_so_ana]

I forgot two more points:
1) VNs are works of fiction. At some point the writing will not really reflect reality, but wish fulfillment. Bedroom behaviour being one example of this.
2) People are different, and what one woman might never do another would... just because.

[strider757]

Regarding your forgotten points no_so_ana, you are quite correct...but I still think role playing would help developers tighten up character dialogue.

[strider757]

Hey no_so_ana, I've been thinking about your other question "Say, have you ever read any romance novel written by and aimed at women? Seen any movie about true love, written for women? Subpar dialogue is not restricted to male compute game geeks." and yes, I have. I guess if I can admit to reading AVNs I can admit to other guilty pleasures as well. I've read more than one 'historical romance' or bodice ripper. And at one point I had a subscription to a Harlequin book club for a year or two, and each month they'd send me eight of them. I went through those things like candy! What I do remember is they are sort of formulaic, but I don't remember bad writing. Maybe I wasn't looking that close then, but I think an editor squashes bad writing right out of the gate. With an editor, if the writing isn't to a particular minimum level...the author man or woman, doesn't get published.

[kevink27]

Originally posted by strider757:

Hey no_so_ana, I've been thinking about your other question "Say, have you ever read any romance novel written by and aimed at women? Seen any movie about true love, written for women? Subpar dialogue is not restricted to male compute game geeks." and yes, I have. I guess if I can admit to reading AVNs I can admit to other guilty pleasures as well. I've read more than one 'historical romance' or bodice ripper. And at one point I had a subscription to a Harlequin book club for a year or two, and each month they'd send me eight of them. I went through those things like candy! What I do remember is they are sort of formulaic, but I don't remember bad writing. Maybe I wasn't looking that close then, but I think an editor squashes bad writing right out of the gate. With an editor, if the writing isn't to a particular minimum level...the author man or woman, doesn't get published.

I don't think the part about the book not getting published holds out anymore with self publishing. You can get almost anything in print today.

[no_so_ana]

strider757, what I meant with the comment about romance novels is: It does not matter if a work is targeted towards men or women, especially the lovemaking scenes are all to often cringe. Unrealistic and cringe. And, as I stated in another point, quite often they are not always meant to be realisitc as long as they fulfill the readers desire.

Also, yes they are formulaic, because the formula works. At least often enough.

Yes, having an editor helps. As kevink27 stated, these days you can self-publish almost anything, but there is a marked difference between self-published works and works which benefitted from the Editor. For example: In the Dexta-Series from C.J. Ryan, the first four novel were published by Bantam, and had generally high quality even though the fourth book had declined. The fifth was self-published, and the difference in quality was appalling.

[strider757]

Hey Kevink, you have a point with self publishing, but that is a relatively new thing. Still, that doesn't negate the fact that if an editor is involved...necessarily, the writing is better...it just is. That doesn't mean I look down on VN developers for having to master a bunch of different disciplines to create a VN. What is more, from my perspective as an American English speaker, many developers are not American at all. Even a well told story can suffer to varying degrees from translation.

As I've said before, the genre is yet young, some studios will thrive while perfecting their craft. Others will put out low quality stuff for as long as there is an audience. While I enjoy what we get now, I find I'm looking forward to the genre maturing.