Where Are the Decent Wargames?

[Simon Lancaster [ANWF]]

This is a post I made about RTS and turn-based wargames. Let me know your thoughts especially from the turn-based side of things:

There is an absolute dearth of decent, historical, tactical wargames on the PC in my opinion. I am not talking squad based battles (e.g. XCOM), I am not talking about fantasy titles (e.g. Warhammer or Starcraft), I am not talking about traditional RTS games (e.g. Command & Conquer or Supreme Commander) and I am not talking about hex based 'counter' games (e.g. Panzer Corps). I am talking about a good, solid wargame with proper historical armies and it can be RTS or turn-based with nice graphical depictions of the soldiers.

So many wargames have crappy or unappealing graphics and it lets the whole game down, e.g. Ultimate General or Hegemony Series or we find that the control system is poor, e.g. Field of Glory or Pike & Shot.

Is it really so difficult to give us a wargame with well depicted, and easily manageable armies?? The model for developers should be titles like Chaos Reborn, Total War Series, Second Manassas, and Sanctus Reach. Wargame development on the PC hasn't really moved on much in the last 20 years in my eyes. Not much out there better than Medieval 2 (released in 2006). Napoleon TW was released in 2010 and is still heavily played by wargamers because there is nothing close to it in that particular period.

Slitherine, Matrix, Ageod or Indie developers... let's go!

[Ryn Flemyng]

Check out: Slitherine

http://store.steampowered.com/search/?term=slitherine

Popular Tags: Wargame:

http://store.steampowered.com/tag/browse/#global_4684

My favorite new Wargame:

Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear
Kursk DLC: Conflict of Heroes: Storms of Steel
Grossdeutschland DLC: Conflict of Heroes: Ghost Divisions

http://store.steampowered.com/app/510320/Conflict_of_Heroes_Awakening_the_Bear/

I like paying with Large Hex & Large Unit Counter options for the board game feel ...

[Simon Lancaster [ANWF]]

Okay, so the hexs turn into proper tanks on the battlefield.. that is a good start. Will check it out, thanks.

[Saint Scylla]

The truth is we get really few historical games, as fantasy or sci-fi are much more popular. Let's see:

Oriental Empires is an upcoming 4X. I haven't played it, but it seems to be more about strategy than battle tactics.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/357310/Oriental_Empires

Unity of Command is an operational wargame from 2012 which still looks very fresh:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/218090/Unity_of_Command_Stalingrad_Campaign/

Wars Across The World is a light wargame. I recommend checking the reviews first.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/341040/Wars_Across_The_World/

Burden of Command is an upcoming WW2 tactical game. Not what you want, but it's very promising: https://burdenofcommand.com/


The Creative Assembly is working on 2 historical titles. From what was hinted, I'm betting on a Total War Saga: 1066 announced in a couple of months with a release either in Q4 2017 or Q1/Q2 2018, and then a major historical Total War on a completely new era, so either medieval China, the 17th-18th centuries in Europe (focus on the Sun King?), the American Civil War or a World War.
https://www.totalwar.com/blog/a-total-war-saga-announce-blog/
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/196353/a-total-war-saga-q-a
https://www.totalwar.com/blog/what-the-teams-are-working-on-07-06-17/

[Tytalus]

The turn based one with exceptional wargame mechanics, set in the era everyone forgot (Edit - I see you mentioned this... in my opinion, some suboptimal control doesn't stop this being a great turn based wargame):
http://store.steampowered.com/app/377520/Pike_and_Shot__Campaigns/

Theclassic RTS one, made all pretty and modern:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/572410/Steel_Division_Normandy_44/

And you know that crazy fever dream from 1999 where you dreamed that every single solder in a RTS was played by an individual person in a super mega game. Yeah, they made that:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/505460/Foxhole/

[Simon Lancaster [ANWF]]

Some good suggestions.. Just to be clear - Unity of Command and Wars Across the World are hex based games which I am not interested in. Oriental Empires looks quite nice with well presented armies and I will check that out.

[Ryn Flemyng]

War Across the World is really a area based movement & combat game ... kind of unique in how you gather resoures, supply, & reinforcements ... I don't really have a warm fuzzy feeling "yet" about how the unique mechanics make for an "historically accurate portrayal" or just a "historical setting" as the same game mechanics are used no matter the time period ...

Yep ... Unity of Command ... Russia 1941-1945 ... strategic / operational hex wargame ...

Another of my favorites is Heroes of Normandie (not hexes but squares): it is tactical trurn based where the enemy can react during your turn and you during the enemy turn like Conflict of Heroes.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/365890

Problem maybe that most turn based games need hexes, squares, or areas ... even RTS Europa Universalis type games use areas ...

The Close Combat game series is my favorite RTS tactical wargame series with no hexes, squares, but has strategic campaign movement areas ... the series has flaws but the mod community is still very strong ...

Open country TB or RTS historical wargames are not too common ...

R.U.S.E. was taken off Steam
http://steamcommunity.com/app/21970/

Steel Division: Normandy 44 (could be considered the sucessor to R.U.S.E.)

http://store.steampowered.com/app/572410/Steel_Division_Normandy_44/

One of my all time favorites Napoleon 1813 ... strategic production & area move ... then RTS to fight the ensuing battle ... and includes standalone RTS historical 1813 battles ... innovative for its time, indie developer, diamond in the ruff ... btw, runs fine on my Windows 7 computer ...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/391853731341?chn=ps&dispItem=1

NAPOLEON 1813 Empire Interactive Computer Wargame, PC, 1999

[Xanderp]

If you like Panzer Corps you'll probably enjoy Order of Battle, all first missions of campaigns are free to try to give you a taste if you want. The game seems to be aiming to eventually make campaigns for every theatre:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/312450/Order_of_Battle_World_War_II/

Also if you are okay with Pike and Shot, there's the seldom-mentioned Sengoku Jidai, similar mechanics except it focuses a bit more on the general's placement on the battlefield.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/397190/Sengoku_Jidai_Shadow_of_the_Shogun/

[Tytalus]

To the OP, is there anything on the slitherine/tactical search that would match what you are looking for?
http://www.slitherine.com/store/?g=8&a=3&pt=1

If I get the drift of the OP, you're looking for a table-top type push-units-around experience, moved onto PC, with beautiful graphics? In which case the genre is probably so dominated by Total War that no others stand a chance. The "Wargame series" (including Steel Division Normandy) has similar dominance of modern era squad based wargames.

Ultimate General is a worthy challenger to Total War (I don't think I agree with the crappy graphics comment).

Even though Unity of Command is hex based, I wouldn't let that put you off if you haven't tried it. Its gameplay is excellent - far superior to Sanctus Reach for instance - and its the recognized gateway drug to hex based wargames :)
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/01/25/game-swap-unity-of-command/

I'll suggest a couple of other wargames that I like for their take on areas of warfare generally consider dull, but made rather interesting in these games due to their unusual mechanics (both hex based though)

How to make strategic level trench warfare interesting:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/312350/Commander_The_Great_War/

How to make operational level anti-insurgency interesting:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/580710/Afghanistan_11/

[Xanderp]

Oh he's NOT talking about hex-based war games, I misread that sorry.

[Simon Lancaster [ANWF]]

Yes, I am not interested in hex based counter games for the purposes of this particular discussion. (I do, however, play Panzer Corps and Order of Battle and I enjoy them.)

What we are trying to focus on is, as someone above mentioned, the *tabletop experience of moving soldiers and armies around on the battlefield represented on the PC*. Ideally with 3D modelling and some splashes of colour, etc. Most of the suggestions so far have been for WW2/modern games (Heroes of Normandy/Steel Div), and these are often squad based, rather than large scale armies. Unity of Command is a strategic level game and I am more concerned with tactical level wargames. I am really interested in Ancients, Pike and Musket era, and the Napoleonic period. Some fantasy games would also be okay.

Key points then:

TACTICAL level not strategic or operational (e.g. not Unity of Command).
3D MODELLING not hex based counters (e.g. not Wars Across the World or PzC).
ANCIENTS, PIKE & SHOT, NAPOLEONIC or FANTASY (e.g. not Steel Division).
LARGE SCALE ARMIES not squad based (e.g. not Afghan 11).

I am trying to be exact here because I do think there is a real lack of the kind of games that I like on the PC. They are quite rare. PC wargames seem to be dominated by WW2 or modern warfare periods and strategic level wargames other than the Total War series.

Here is my own list of wargames that do fit my criteria:

Warhammer 40k Sanctus Reach TB
Napoleon Total War RTS
Take Command: 2nd Manassas RTS
Chaos Reborn TB

What all of the above have in common is great graphical representation. As I have mentioned before in other posts, this is often lacking in PC wargames and people say that it is not important for wargamers! How many hours do tabletop wargamers spend on painting their soliders? Of course it is an important factor in a good wargame. In all the above you see smoke, explosions, and fire when combat ensues.. This is what a wargame on a PC should be doing! Stretching the boundaries and bringing the battles alive!

Sanctus Reach is a new project, and Chaos Reborn is a few years old. Napoleon TW was launched in 2010 and 2nd Manassas in 2006. Developers really need to bring some decent tactical wargames to the digital table!

[Xanderp]

Yeah, that's really tough. If you are okay with fantasy, this game (potentially) fits your description pretty well although it's in EA and not out yet:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/607650/Realms_of_Conquest/

[Galdred]

Kohan or Kohan 2 might work. It is a RTS, but where you order "companies" of 8 soldiers. It is quite old (Kohan 2 was published around the same time as Dawn of War).

You could as well try Hell (same engine as Sanctus Reach, but fantasy). I think Hell is a bit weaker than the other in the serie.

If Total War is OK, you should definitely give King Arthur a shot.
It is basically Total War but with some RPG elements, and magic.
But it is a strategy game with tactical battles. Not sure it fits your bill.

You could also try Age of Wonders 3, which is also a mix of strategy and tactics.
The Fallen Enchantress series is also in the same vein, and lets you commnd your armies on the tactical map.

[Ulfric Sombrage]

The game is really polemic but have you tried Syrian Warfare and his ancestor Warfare ? Pretty nice games with realistic elements, a bit like Steel division at "big squad" (20-30 men) dimension.

[Ando]

Warring States
Steam Squad
Dominions

[speedyappraisals]

Has anyone tried Eador Imperium or it's predecessor Eador Masters of the Broken World. If you don't mind fantasy settings they are the best tactical games I have ever played.