Can you build your own computers, install SteamOS and sell them online?

[JohnJack]

Title says all.

[President Yakub]

Of course you can, I don't see why anyone would buy it though, because it WILL be more expensive than buying an actual steam machine.

[JohnJack]

Originally posted by Reciprocal {マイケル}:

Of course you can, I don't see why anyone would buy it though, because it WILL be more expensive than buying an actual steam machine.

Thanks! I was just wondering out of curiosity.

[runequester]

This was covered in the information Valve provided.

[StevenRaith]

Originally posted by Reciprocal:

Of course you can, I don't see why anyone would buy it though, because it WILL be more expensive than buying an actual steam machine.

Unless you have distribution channel agreements meaning you can buy hardware at below retail pricing.

Which as an OEM, it'd be in your interest to do.

Computer shops don't just slap $5 on a GPU, and neither would you if you were going to build Steam Machines as a business - you'd get an accoutn with a distributor (C2000, Ingram Micro, whatever local equivelant you have) and you'd buy 30 of each component, and spend about 70% of retail price on them.

You'd then build and selll them for somewhere around or above 'complete' retail price.

That's your margin - the trick is, building them in such a way that it takes as little of your time as possible, hence meaning more of that margin goes into your pocket, rather than only just recompensing you for the time you've spent.

Ie if it takes you five days to build 20 machines, and you've spent $10,000 on the hardware, and you can sell them for $12,000 over the course of a month, is it worth it for $1000 over that timescale. Does that cover your rent, and the time you spend speccing, configuring, selling and supporting those machines?

Time and motion study - Business 101, kids.

[President Yakub]

Originally posted by StevenRaith:

Originally posted by Reciprocal:

Of course you can, I don't see why anyone would buy it though, because it WILL be more expensive than buying an actual steam machine.

Unless you have distribution channel agreements meaning you can buy hardware at below retail pricing.

Which as an OEM, it'd be in your interest to do.

Computer shops don't just slap $5 on a GPU, and neither would you if you were going to build Steam Machines as a business - you'd get an accoutn with a distributor (C2000, Ingram Micro, whatever local equivelant you have) and you'd buy 30 of each component, and spend about 70% of retail price on them.

You'd then build and selll them for somewhere around or above 'complete' retail price.

That's your margin - the trick is, building them in such a way that it takes as little of your time as possible, hence meaning more of that margin goes into your pocket, rather than only just recompensing you for the time you've spent.

Ie if it takes you five days to build 20 machines, and you've spent $10,000 on the hardware, and you can sell them for $12,000 over the course of a month, is it worth it for $1000 over that timescale. Does that cover your rent, and the time you spend speccing, configuring, selling and supporting those machines?

Time and motion study - Business 101, kids.

Something you need to take account for is AMD and Nvidia. They are both going to be speaking at Steam Developer Days, which means they are both likely to be selling their own steam machines. If this is true you have no hope whatsoever of building a steam machine that is cheaper than theirs.

[StevenRaith]

That's not strictly true - they may offer their own hardware (although it's unlikely IMHO) but they won't be able to cater to every taste.

What if I want a Steam Machine with eSATA expansion for a four disk array? What if I want a machine with water cooling? What if I want a machine with an LED display showing temperatures, speeds, RAM utilised etc? What if I have a whole load of Mac gear and I want something that fits in with that aesthtic? What if I have a C64 by the telly and want something that fits that aesthetic? ;)

There are opportunities for clever, interesting systembuilders and boutiques to make niche products - and price is far from everything. Otherwise BMW wouldn't exist and we'd all drive Fiat 500s....

[tuxisagamer]

Originally posted by StevenRaith:

Originally posted by Reciprocal:

Of course you can, I don't see why anyone would buy it though, because it WILL be more expensive than buying an actual steam machine.

Unless you have distribution channel agreements meaning you can buy hardware at below retail pricing.

Which as an OEM, it'd be in your interest to do.

Computer shops don't just slap $5 on a GPU, and neither would you if you were going to build Steam Machines as a business - you'd get an accoutn with a distributor (C2000, Ingram Micro, whatever local equivelant you have) and you'd buy 30 of each component, and spend about 70% of retail price on them.

You'd then build and selll them for somewhere around or above 'complete' retail price.

That's your margin - the trick is, building them in such a way that it takes as little of your time as possible, hence meaning more of that margin goes into your pocket, rather than only just recompensing you for the time you've spent.

Ie if it takes you five days to build 20 machines, and you've spent $10,000 on the hardware, and you can sell them for $12,000 over the course of a month, is it worth it for $1000 over that timescale. Does that cover your rent, and the time you spend speccing, configuring, selling and supporting those machines?

Time and motion study - Business 101, kids.

5 days to build 20 machines? LOL I could easily do all 20 in 8 hours. Provided I had a 5 port KVM setup that is. And if I was building systems in bulk I would. Remember these are Linux systems not Windows. You don't need to spend an hour installing drivers after the base system install.

And if SteamOS is like most Linux distros you don't need to install incremental updates. In Windows you install updates A-D, then a service pack, then updates F-I, then another service pack, then additional updates after that. In most Linux distros you simply upgrade from current to most recent without needing any intermediary updates.

A typical Ubuntu install takes approximately 1 hour from booting to usb drive to everything is up to date and configured. I can't imagine that SteamOs will be much different in that regard.

[Supertorresmo]

Originally posted by Reciprocal {マイケル}:

Of course you can, I don't see why anyone would buy it though, because it WILL be more expensive than buying an actual steam machine.

People will buy it, there's lots of people who don't know how to set a system or just don't want to bother with it and would pay to get it ready.

I know people who makes a living installing OSs and configuring systems...

[President Yakub]

Originally posted by Supertorresmo:

Originally posted by Reciprocal {マイケル}:

Of course you can, I don't see why anyone would buy it though, because it WILL be more expensive than buying an actual steam machine.

People will buy it, there's lots of people who don't know how to set a system or just don't want to bother with it and would pay to get it ready.

I know people who makes a living installing OSs and configuring systems...

Did you even read what I said? Retail steam machines will be cheaper than ones made at home, simply because the companies making them will either have deals with company's like Nvidia, or the company may even make their own parts. There's nothing to set up with steam machines, unlike a normal PC.

[Supertorresmo]

Originally posted by Reciprocal {マイケル}:

Originally posted by Supertorresmo:

People will buy it, there's lots of people who don't know how to set a system or just don't want to bother with it and would pay to get it ready.

I know people who makes a living installing OSs and configuring systems...

Did you even read what I said? Retail steam machines will be cheaper than ones made at home, simply because the companies making them will either have deals with company's like Nvidia, or the company may even make their own parts. There's nothing to set up with steam machines, unlike a normal PC.

You're not thinking globally, I live in Brasil, I doubt that retail steam machines will arrive here, at least not at affordable prices. The importing process makes the prices go higher, so a local small online vendor building steam machines would still be able to compete here, and in other markets like it.

For the US you may be right...

[President Yakub]

Originally posted by Supertorresmo:

Originally posted by Reciprocal {マイケル}:

Did you even read what I said? Retail steam machines will be cheaper than ones made at home, simply because the companies making them will either have deals with company's like Nvidia, or the company may even make their own parts. There's nothing to set up with steam machines, unlike a normal PC.

You're not thinking globally, I live in Brasil, I doubt that retail steam machines will arrive here, at least not at affordable prices. The importing process makes the prices go higher, so a local small online vendor building steam machines would still be able to compete here, and in other markets like it.

For the US you may be right...

I am thinking globally, retail items in Brazil are cheaper than in Australia so I don't know how you're going to get a steam machine cheaper by getting it off eBay or something like that. Even if it comes from the U.S. You still have to pay for shipping, which will up the cost quite a bit.

[StevenRaith]

Originally posted by Reciprocal {マイケル}:

Originally posted by StevenRaith:

Unless you have distribution channel agreements meaning you can buy hardware at below retail pricing.

Which as an OEM, it'd be in your interest to do.

Computer shops don't just slap $5 on a GPU, and neither would you if you were going to build Steam Machines as a business - you'd get an accoutn with a distributor (C2000, Ingram Micro, whatever local equivelant you have) and you'd buy 30 of each component, and spend about 70% of retail price on them.

You'd then build and selll them for somewhere around or above 'complete' retail price.

That's your margin - the trick is, building them in such a way that it takes as little of your time as possible, hence meaning more of that margin goes into your pocket, rather than only just recompensing you for the time you've spent.

Ie if it takes you five days to build 20 machines, and you've spent $10,000 on the hardware, and you can sell them for $12,000 over the course of a month, is it worth it for $1000 over that timescale. Does that cover your rent, and the time you spend speccing, configuring, selling and supporting those machines?

Time and motion study - Business 101, kids.

Something you need to take account for is AMD and Nvidia. They are both going to be speaking at Steam Developer Days, which means they are both likely to be selling their own steam machines. If this is true you have no hope whatsoever of building a steam machine that is cheaper than theirs.

They can't sell their own components to themselves at less than it would cost them to sell to a distributor.

So if it costs Ingram Micro £200 to buy a GTX780, that's what Nvidia have to put £200 on the BOM for their own hardware. Period. Otherwise Competition Commisions get involved. If a Tegra 4 costs Samsung £60, then it costs £60 in a Shield. This is the way things work.

Besides, given the bruhaha over Nvidia and AMDs recent GPU decisions, I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them when it comes to a full hardware build. Fan profiles? Pff, who cares. We'll change that on release day to make it perform better at the cost of it being hilariously loud! Pricing? Hey, if no-one's making a competing product, we'll just chuck a $1000 ticket on it, *someone* will buy it! etc.

Oh, and TuxIsAGamer, where is your soak testing in that eight hours?

[President Yakub]

Originally posted by StevenRaith:

Originally posted by Reciprocal {マイケル}:

Something you need to take account for is AMD and Nvidia. They are both going to be speaking at Steam Developer Days, which means they are both likely to be selling their own steam machines. If this is true you have no hope whatsoever of building a steam machine that is cheaper than theirs.

They can't sell their own components to themselves at less than it would cost them to sell to a distributor.

So if it costs Ingram Micro £200 to buy a GTX780, that's what Nvidia have to put £200 on the BOM for their own hardware. Period. Otherwise Competition Commisions get involved. If a Tegra 4 costs Samsung £60, then it costs £60 in a Shield. This is the way things work.

Besides, given the bruhaha over Nvidia and AMDs recent GPU decisions, I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them when it comes to a full hardware build. Fan profiles? Pff, who cares. We'll change that on release day to make it perform better at the cost of it being hilariously loud! Pricing? Hey, if no-one's making a competing product, we'll just chuck a $1000 ticket on it, *someone* will buy it! etc.

Oh, and TuxIsAGamer, where is your soak testing in that eight hours?

Nvidia/Amd/whoever don't have to "buy" their own things. They don't have to sell it for any more than they pay to make it.

[StevenRaith]

I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong there, I'll try to explain as clearly as possible. All figures are hypothetical, but all the examples are quite real.

If, say an R290 chipset costs Sapphire $150 per thousand units, you can be assured that in the same volume, it would cost AMDs card design outlet $150 per thousand.

I'd suggest doing some research on competition commissions and anticompetitive behaviour. Start at Intel and British Telecommunications and you should get an idea of why this matters.

Intel, for example, gave Dell tens of thousands of free CPUs in exchange for Dell hobbling their AMD product range. That is anticompetitive as it made the effective cost of an Intel CPU far, far less than the cost of an AMD CPU. And it wasn't just Dell - it was nearly every OEM out there they were bribing.

In BTs example, BT and Mercury telecoms basically owned almost all of the telecoms structure in the UK. They were broken up to introduce competition and ensure the consumer got a better deal.

BT Group own both BT Internet (an ISP) and BT Openreach and BT Ignite (infrastructure engineering firms who run the actual physical cabling and exchanges - the backbone. This isn't exactly how it works, but for the sake of example, it's close enough). In practice, If BT Internet wants wants to buy 10Gb of capacity on BTOR/BTIgnites network, it'll cost them, say, £1000/month.

If a competing ISP, such as Talk Talk or Sky Broadband want to buy 10Gb of capacity on BTOR/BTIgnites network it will cost them....£1000/month. That is, BT Internet, despite being part of the same group as BT Ignite and Openreach, don't get 'mates rates' for backbone capacity. Some ten years ago, there was the suggestion that BT Group had let BT Internet (nee Openworld) know that they were reducing wholesale DSL prices (the price other ISPs pay to use their lines) and the shit hit the fan[www.theregister.co.uk].

In the same way, in our hypothetical example, AMD can't sell themselves an R290 chipset for less than it would cost Sapphire to buy an R290 chipset. AMDs card design division can't get mates rates from AMDs silicon design and manufacturing arm. If they did, other competing manufacturers and outlets would be on the phone to the FTC before you could say 'it cost them *how* much to put that in their own systems??'.

By extension, AMD Retail can't supply themselves with a finished graphics card for less than it would cost a large distributor/OEM (say, NewEgg, or Dell) to buy up the same volume of finished graphics cards - because that would destroy competition in the market as AMD would simply have the cheapest product by far.

Likewise, if Qualcomm were to start building phones themselves rather than just designing and selling the chips in them, they couldn't sell themselves a Snapdragon 800 chipset for less than it costs LG or Asus.

They can make it cheaper by using lower cost materials, building their own power supplies and motherboards, having a PC building plant next door to the foundry to reduce transport costs, etc as these are all things *anyone* in the market of a similar scale could do - but they can't do it by selling themselves chipsets at less than distributor costs - that would get the FTC and EC Competition Commision on their backs so fast they wouldn't know what hit them, and would likely end up with them being fined somewhere in the region of a number with *lot* of zeroes on the end. Just like Intel got. Several times...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel#Anti-competitive_allegations

...and it's been attempted many times, by many manufacturers and industries, such as LCD manufacturers setting artificially high and low prices to ensure a cartel where they set the prices - meaning no need to compete against each other to stay profitable.
http://www.out-law.com/en/articles/2013/january/chinese-regulator-fines-six-lcd-screen-makers-over-price-fixing/

Selling your own hardware to yourself at artificially lowered prices is the same thing, effectively - you're creating an artificial market to undermine competitors.

This isn't a subjective opinion, this is a reiteration of how the first worlds legal restraints operate to ensure that multibillion dollar corporations don't abuse their positions of power.

[Balderick]

Perfect explanation why "capitalism" is unsustainable and does not work. Not to mention the influences of corruption.

What is written on paper is different to reality.

History is written by the hand that wrote it.