Will there ever be a Call to Power III?

[Dutchgamer1982]

personally I find Call to Power II the best civilization game ever, and probably the best turn based strategy game ever.

Elements that count for it are :
-Public works : a LOT better solution than those pesky workers from civilizations
-the seacity's (granted alpha centauri had them too.. still I miss them)
-the spacecity's (having a second layer map, with options to bomb the surfice from space, offers all kind of tactical options)
-maglev tunnels -> no longer needing to put units in a ship to move them across contrinents, a thing much missing from civilizations.
-the ability to terraform terrain -> also great
-the way pollution was handled, destroying terrain, causing flooding, etc..
-the extended future technology's and goverments (even while all from 1 book, I liked it a lot, it sparked my interest in politicts and society much more than history did)
-the comical movies between each wonder and invention (again not a new inventium but I miss them a lot in modern titles)
Gotta love the Hippynuke, turning the greens in the military most mighty power in the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxBVc2cSFeI
-the ability to quickly copy building lists, to make managing thousants of city's easy.
-the ability to have only 12 units in a stack, preventing to large stacks of doom, whlle still alowing easy unit movement and unit combinations.
-the first introduction of the army-unit before civIII did, bundling the power of multiple units into one.
-tiles always needed at least 0.1 movement, alowing both easy unit movement, while at the same time preventing railroad rushes..
-the way religions could be spread for the entire duration of the game and each city could house each relifgion in the game.. was good.

Elements that modern civ titles ruined :
-the dreaded city limit (hate that), I want unlimited numbers of city's, a game needs good managment not cutting number of city's.
-the ability to culturally push borders -> that was a good thing it should not have been removed
-the ability to build all buildings except wonders in unlimited amounts in all city's and in all ages (I do not like buildings being made unavailable after certain ages while their effects contrinue.. that messes up city standarisation)
-the hated stacks of 1 : I liked the stacks of doom much much more

Still there were things that Call to power I and II did get wrong :
-CtP II removed the space level, making it actually of less quality than I.
-the Ai generally was not advancing quick enough, so you rarely got neat space battles as would be awesome.
-trade resources could be destroyed by polution or terraforming, but not created, meaning as the game advanced most trade resources would be removed from the game
-it was not possible to terraform seatiles into other types..

And things that civilizations or alpha-centaury did better :
-the custom unit building from alpha-centaury was the best, call to power would be better if it allowed for it.
-the advisors from civilization II where splendid, pure fun! need them too.
-giving use to owning more than 1 stack of a resource, as introduced in civ 4, by making certain units and buildings require not only acces to a resource but ENOUGH acces, was a good tactical move.
-having hexagonal tiles, instead of square ones also makes sence
-alowing for creating your own religion was good, the limit to only 1 per city, and the limit in numbers of temples and cathedrals based on age and tech, certainly was not
-the ability to use cash to buy more land, and the option to pick what tile you want to expand to when culture advances enough was too.

still even with this room to improve for me Civ III remains the best civilization game, close to civ II, but call to power I hold the crown as THE BEST EVER.
I wonder are there more people feeling like me, and is there any chance I ever get my desired Call to Power III, with all the good things listed above and some extra as call to power likes to "toss in new things"

One new thing they could toss in, would be not only adding 2 layers of map, but actually alowing for a couple planets in the game.. each of 2 layers of map.
Thereby making a hyrbid between a classic TBS and a space TBS.
-> though that would extend the gameplay much much longer, enough of the simplification things to give mass-orders to hundreds of city's at the same time... as CTP always had, should fix that.

one could even imagine not playing human, but having multiple races each starting with multiple civilizations on a planets stoneage.. eventually flying to other worlds, finding them in a higher or lower state of development, but with very unique tech and opting to either ally with one or multiple cultures on such a planet, or downright invade them...
(ofcourse after you have the right tech to unlock such options)

CTP I has us clone the alien, why not have CTP III go ahead after that...
however it will go..

[Siddha]

In the OP you write....
"personally I find Call to Power III the best civilization game ever,"

I presume you meant to write Call to Power II

[Dutchgamer1982]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Siddha:

In the OP you write....
"personally I find Call to Power III the best civilization game ever,"

I presume you meant to write Call to Power II

ofcourse, error corected.

[Siddha]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Dutchgamer1982:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Siddha:

In the OP you write....
"personally I find Call to Power III the best civilization game ever,"

I presume you meant to write Call to Power II

ofcourse, error corected.

I have the game on GoG but haven't played it
Your post makes me think I should
:)

[Dutchgamer1982]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Siddha:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Dutchgamer1982:

ofcourse, error corected.

I have the game on GoG but haven't played it
Your post makes me think I should
:)

version I was also very good.

Call to Power I and II are nearly identical.
(so much so that many of their game files are interchanchangeble)

sadly for version II they removed the "space layer" and the "alien embrio" ending.
(so only water and land terraforming there)
-but tit made up for it with alowing bigger armies, and beter game balance as well as more diplomacy options.

So I'd say try both I and II, there both good.

AND YES TRY THEM, you won't regret it!

How does it play?
-Do not expect a smart AI, like all civ the AI is not that smart, but smarter than for some civ games, though he can be quite harassing (more in that in a second)
However good game mechanics compensate a bit
-the AI does upgrade units (where in civ I rarely see the AI do that)
-the AI does attack with units in huge stacks of doom, just like a player world (good move)
-when you cancel a "right of passage agreement" your units are expelled from the person you had an agreement with (so no more backstab & conquer in a day thing)

*roads WILL work for you and your enemies the same, realisticly, but sadly that turns your own infrastructure against you when facing an invasion, but you can pillage your own tile improvements so a scourced earth solution in such a situation is still possible.

-The AI can be a totally PITA
there are special units, that are invisible to almost all other units. that can do nasty stuff to your city's that combined with good lategame roads that do only 0.1 movement, (making a 3 movement unit capable of moving 30 tiles) making him do "espionage missions" on you all the time... while you be in the dark where that attacking unit has moved to.
The AI uses this ALL the time when given the chance, even when in good relations with you,
(I like that cloack and dagger game, but not all do)

-the future goverments, and the type of future special units (like making the greens the most powerfull militairy goverment there is as they have some sort of hippynuke that can turn entire city's and all people and buildings in it back into pristine land with just one click.
it is fun.. and actually you learn a thing or two.. ever wondered what a corporate republic is?

*not having workers saves a LOT of time, just tax part of your production output and you can spend it to construct tile improvements, including eventually complete conversion, alowing you to turn any landtile into any other type of landtile.

*polution is done right, it destroys tiles making their value zero, it causes global waterlevels rising and may cause international conflicts but a certain wonder ends all that mahem.
A world where all nations are industrialised but not yet advanced enough for that wonder can be quite interesting to play in (or a living hell to live in)

You must however be prepared to micro-manage hundreds of city's (made more easy by just copy-pasting the same building que to all your city's) unlike civ 4-6 this one is the classic type and that means tons of city's.
However it does not mean unlimited city's eventually you will have to many city's to keep happy, and any more will cause city's to revolt and form their own civ apart from you.
You will have mind control buildings to adress that, but you first need to own the city a couple turns to build it eh?
You have a mind control wonder to have unlimited city's... without revolting, but the AI may become sentient and take halve your city's with it.. do you risk building it?

Oh and last but not least the movies, the movies are great...
wonder movies, tech movies, great!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKGcbr_V9Iw&list=PL20505DB274A2D498&index=19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPuU8Pq9D3Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubf9hdrCndo&list=PL20505DB274A2D498&index=33

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC_UEfH-uZ0&index=28&list=PLQ5BfCBXiyNvQzwk5fSAJElMdvcvcQMP8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBp7VC8-qXg&list=PLQ5BfCBXiyNvQzwk5fSAJElMdvcvcQMP8&index=6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4JJHjoBw2c&list=PLQ5BfCBXiyNvQzwk5fSAJElMdvcvcQMP8&index=9

[Siddha]

Thank you Dutchgamer1982
Definitely sounds worth a look

I saw there is a mod that some recommend - Aployton Source Code Project
What about that?

[Dutchgamer1982]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Siddha:

Thank you Dutchgamer1982
Definitely sounds worth a look

I saw there is a mod that some recommend - Aployton Source Code Project
What about that?

the official makers of the game, have abandoned it in 2002 (both I and II)
Because it still has a strong fanbase most united on the webpage :
http://apolyton.net
it managed to get the studio so far to release the sourcecode, and it is accesable on that webpage.
Having acces to the sourcecode makes modding much more possible.
(without you can only tweak existing features, but not add new ones, with it you are essentially able to customise the software any way you desire, and able to tailor the software any way you desire, as long as you have the knowhow and manpower.

As such the apolyton page is the place to go for mods.
Sadly they seem a bit stuck in the past most mods offer only support for the classic version (the cd version from 1999) of Call to Power I or II.. not all work for the GoG version.

the Source Code Project is an ongoing project to fix and mod things in the game.
the latest (GoG compatable) version) of the mod made by that team can be found here :
https://www.gog.com/forum/call_to_power_2/apolyton_ctp2_edition_revision_1111_released
http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/196269-Apolyton-CTP2-Edition-Revision-1111-(12-Jun-2011)

Do note though that activity on that forum has run more silent last years.. even while it has remained firm for over a decade after the original game was released.
As you can imagine, fans are plentyfull, but coders who keep coding are not, 1,5 decade is enough to turn a 16yo scriptkiddy in a Professional Programmer, who might no longer be into gaming, while attrackting new volonteers for an older title is hard..

I mod myself in morrowind and I know that the team of once 100+ has now dropped to less than 10 people (and perhaps less than 5) globally who still write mods for it.
All games face that issue..

Having a person write mods for a game is hard dedication, firs not many of the gamers can do it, and even if they can do, they can not mod for 10 games at the same time, generally they only mod for less that 5 games in their life, and only 1-2 games at the same time.
So this small group of skilled modders will only write mods for the games they feel attracted the most too in their life.
And thats where psychology kicks in : people tend to grow the most fondness for the things they enjoyed around the age of 16 to about 21 and those are the things that will stick for life. its not nostalgica googles why people like me like the games from the 90s and early 00 more than modern titles, it's just older age;) generation googles would be a better term.
Chance than a person from an younger generation falls in love with the things from an older generation is plausible, but the chance that it will make that youngsters top 10 of all time is slim to none.
As such after release no new modders will dedicate themselves to write mods for that title.
Remakes, rereleases can sometimes spark a second wave of modders, but usually those second waves are shortlived and many such projects will not be finished.
And than there is the gamers lifecycle, while mane gamed at some point, most friends my age gamed just as fanatic as I did when we all were in our teens, but now in our 30s some not even have an pc anymore.. let alone keep up with modern tech, people get family's kids career, and so on, and most people cease to game after 30, and as such drop out.
Add to this that at 16 a skilled scriptkiddy may see modding a good way to learn things, but 10-15 years later he will be a professional programmer who earns a relatively large ourly wage, who would still want to programm as a hobby if thats what you do all day for work?
Even if such geeks managed to keep up their hobby of gaming (and most do not) it will no longer be as modder, they may visit comicon, or spend their wealth on retrogaming hardware, or be playing games instead of modding them.
As such you see that very few games from the 90s and early 00s still have any modding comunity alive.. the fact many mod websites of that era have been taken offline, does not help too, seeing so much good content destroyed and no longer available takes the spirit out of many of the last modders of that generation.

Well so far my thesis on the modders community;) for you : just enjoy call to power I and II, and who knows we might enjoy a multiplayer game one day together i;)

[Siddha]

I guess as people grow older and get families and such they have less time to devote to hobbies like modding. It is a shame that worthy and classic games get left behind and abandoned over time; but it's natural too. New kids on the block want to work on the new games and technologies

I like trying out older games and less well known ones too. No idea why

About CTP2
Have you tried the Apolyton Code Project mod yourself?
and if so what do you advise to a newbie

Thanks

[Dutchgamer1982]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Siddha:

I guess as people grow older and get families and such they have less time to devote to hobbies like modding. It is a shame that worthy and classic games get left behind and abandoned over time; but it's natural too. New kids on the block want to work on the new games and technologies

I like trying out older games and less well known ones too. No idea why

About CTP2
Have you tried the Apolyton Code Project mod yourself?
and if so what do you advise to a newbie

Thanks

I must say I have not tried that mod, I like the game fine as it is in vanilla.
As I advise for any game
-first play (and finish) at least 1 short game in vanilla, before you start adding mods.
generally you desire certain things to improve and find mods that do exactly that.

in case you want mods the apolyton page is for sure the place to be to find mods for CtP & CtP 2

My advise for a starting point would be try a game of both CtP 1 and CtP 2 in vanilla.
(and perhaps after that a CtP 2 with the source code mod)

after that you should have a fairly good idea what fits your taste best and can move (and eventually mod) onwards from there.

Like said the CtP 1 has the space layer, I like that quite much, it also has more (sometimes a bit to much) city micromanagment.

but the CtP 2 has no space layer better balanced diplomacy and such it has more unit micromanegment, but less city manegment.

Some things you can mod yourself, as with many games, there is a txt file in the game folder that allows for some easy tweaking..
(like how many production/gold/food a certain type of tile gives, or how many public works a certain improvement costs) I generally use that to set things a bit more to my liking.
Some call that a mod, to me thats just a "tweak" you can do it yourself and ask me for hints how (or ask on the apolyon page as I do when I cannot find how to tweak something)

As for trying older stuff, well thats a good attitude, imho many of the best games were made in the 90s, gaming was more a geek culture of older, smarter wealthier better equipped pc gamers, console gaming and pc gaming were strictly seperated, add to that the fierce competinion with very small profit margins (one game could make or break you) and the lack of digital distrubution, forcing them to mostly require on good mouth to produce the best they possible could.
If your one of the people with that geek attitude a true pc massterrace, than yes gameplaywise modern games do not have the depth older titles had. The 90s are called the golden era of pc gaming for a reason (in the same way for comics the 1930s is called the golden era of comics) things just never were the same after that.. Not because they are only eyecandy (though I admit a larger part of production budget goes to grafics than in the old days) but also because games these day are made for a broader audience, and gaming have become mainstream, a different audience that does not want to spend hours reading manuals, or hours on forums, but want a quick in between homework and bedtime, or between sleeping kids and sleeping yourself, 30-60 minutes of plug and play fun. They are better suited in that regard, but by serving one audience better, the "classic gamer nerd" that drove the industry in the 90s sees no longer it's needs cathered for as well as before.
So am I just grumpy or is it more a thing that 90s games ARE better than modern titles in a way vinyl is better than tapes and cd for certain situations?

Still I like to now and than experiment with new stuff, I have tried WoW, and some free to play browser games too like pristontale, maplestory and ikariam.
Found them enjoyable for a time but stopped because those games controlled to much my real life, because as an achiever, events ment for me a involentairy "nolife for a week, or else you won't get a perfect score/collection"

Tried certain facebook games like farming games and candy crush, and such for the same curious reason, while less controlling your time, I pretty much found them a scam, they cannot be played properly unless sacrificing unrealistic amounts of time (like over 300 years of none stop playing tpo max out) or spend way more money than such games from a value for your money standpoint are worth.

With recent indie games my opinions are more divided..

I liked minecraft, and found it refreshing, it basicly is lego and who does not like lego?
Also it introduced to me the mindset of the new generation of gamers..
what that mindset is?
-wel ANY game made between 1970 and 2005 give or take has 2 central teams :
*they are wargames, in the sence you have to beat the oponent, whether it is ghosts in packman, mobs in an shooter, grinds in an RPG or ai players in an RTS, war it is, even a classic racegame is about who is 1st.
*they are focussed on achieving, they have missions, quests, achievemnts, scores, victory types, etc.
Minecraft tossed that all out of the window, sure there is the ender dragon but after slaying that? not much. No war (there is monsters but there was not in the first versions of minecraft I played) and no achievements, sandbox games was a new genre born.

I get this, I was born in a generation where the cold war was still active, the enemy was clear and life was pretty secure, get a degree, get a job, get a house.
These day the wellfare state is quickly disapearing (not with my vote but none the less), an education is no longer a guarantee for succes in life, jobs are no longer secure, the digital revolution changes life faster than ever before, never before was the new thing of today outdated tomorrow.. look how long the lp, the tape, the cd and the dvd were relevant?
how long did we have walkmans? how long diskmans? how long mp3 players? before each of them became obsolete?
With conflits have become terrorism, and danger has become a lot closer to home.
Meanwhile the social cohesion of society falls apart, more kids are born in broken homes than ever before.

Such a society does not want war and action, they have enough battle around them every day, they just want an escape from everyday life, they not need an action flick, they need a comedy, and thats what these sandbox games deliver.

While many indie games are total scams never delivering on promises. And I not like to much of the goofy stuff like all "simulator games" with bread, stone and goat simulator being amongst th worst examples. I get where the desire for them is coming from.

Things like kerbal space simulator and minecraft are to me prime examples of this new "mindset" of producing games, while even older people like me can enjoy them, even while I am more a "wargames" and "achiever" kind of guy;)
-they have a factor of "eXplore"
-they have a factor of "eXploit"
-they have a factor of "eXpand"
and while they not have a factor of "eXterminate" they do have a factor "eXplode" as we all like a big bang.
in that mindsset is minecrat a next gen 4x game? that we only not see as such because we use wargame googles?

Interesting thoughts (like you see I am a gamer who like to mix my professional studies with my hobby)

For that end, why do people game? Why did kids invent games to play at street, why did we invent boardgames as far back as the ancient egyptians, why do puzzle magazines sell so well, and so on. What is this human desire for playing around?
Answer that question and you get what would make a good game.

[Hans Lemurson]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Siddha:

I guess as people grow older and get families and such they have less time to devote to hobbies like modding. It is a shame that worthy and classic games get left behind and abandoned over time; but it's natural too. New kids on the block want to work on the new games and technologies

I like trying out older games and less well known ones too. No idea why

About CTP2
Have you tried the Apolyton Code Project mod yourself?
and if so what do you advise to a newbie

Thanks

I played the Apolyton version of CtP2 a couple years ago. It is just as good as unaltered CtP, but with a lot of bugs fixed. When I played CtP2 at its release I was too noobish to notice any faults (other than weak AI), so I cannot give an honest comparison of what was changed. But given that the mod was made by veterans with a love of the game and a deep understanding of its mechanics, I am certain it represents an improvement. When I played it as a more mature gamer, I found no faults or flaws. Just CtP as it should be.

[Siddha]

Hey Dutchgamer1982
What you say makes a lot of sense to me
Fascinating insights
And I agree these shifts are symptomatic of mindset and social changes
At the same time the highest numbers on Steam are competitive wargames in the sense you outline - Dota 2; Counter-Strike; Team Fortress 2
May I ask what are your professional studies?

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hans Lemurson:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Siddha:

I guess as people grow older and get families and such they have less time to devote to hobbies like modding. It is a shame that worthy and classic games get left behind and abandoned over time; but it's natural too. New kids on the block want to work on the new games and technologies

I like trying out older games and less well known ones too. No idea why

About CTP2
Have you tried the Apolyton Code Project mod yourself?
and if so what do you advise to a newbie

Thanks

I played the Apolyton version of CtP2 a couple years ago. It is just as good as unaltered CtP, but with a lot of bugs fixed. When I played CtP2 at its release I was too noobish to notice any faults (other than weak AI), so I cannot give an honest comparison of what was changed. But given that the mod was made by veterans with a love of the game and a deep understanding of its mechanics, I am certain it represents an improvement. When I played it as a more mature gamer, I found no faults or flaws. Just CtP as it should be.

Hi Hans Lemurson
Thanks for that
I have the mod so I may try it

[Dutchgamer1982]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Siddha:

Hey Dutchgamer1982
What you say makes a lot of sense to me
Fascinating insights
And I agree these shifts are symptomatic of mindset and social changes
At the same time the highest numbers on Steam are competitive wargames in the sense you outline - Dota 2; Counter-Strike; Team Fortress 2
May I ask what are your professional studies?

I have a bachalor in Pastoral Counceling (a study that combines elements of theology, sociology and psychology)
And extended that with a master in Sociology and Western Philosophy
My profession is made up my a hybrid of various part time jobs
*I teach part time at a Atheneum/Gymnasium -> teaching kids about society, politics and religion and how they all intertwine.
*I work for a youth-organisation, training volenteers and sometimes presenting studies.
*Sometimes I get a request case study, like "why is our youth walking away" or "what is the role of christianity in a seculair world" I enjoy writing these a lot, though it's a ton of work.

you see from that point, knowing what youngsters mindset is, and what society's mindset is, is kinda my thing;)

As for the populairity of wargames on steam :
I can make up a theory on that, but without research we would not know.

The world kinda chanced on 9-11-2001 (if we take the fall of the wall as the end of the cold war, I would like to see 9-11 as the chance to the war on terror)
-> ofcourse demografics differ per nation, sociologic generations not always sync in different nations.
-> and there is not one hard number to be put on when exactly did mobile phones become such a thing, in 1998 hardly anyone had one, but when exactly did they become smart en masse?
-> likewise when did the internet become mainstream, somewhere end of the 90s, but again, may differ where you lived.

Given that the average gamer is between 16 and 21, than means a large size of the main gaming community is still of the wargame generation.
The kids 15 and younger would be of the sandbox generation, I would need data about sale figures per age group, but judging on what kids in the classroom and such play I'd say much more sandbox games than the older generation.

Steam is also a main pc gaming forum, for younger generations gaming becomes ever more mobile, sales of consoles are falling back, the pc still stands.
Minecraft is not sold on steam and it is the best sold game of all time, we would need to show all sale figures not only those of steam.

if I look at the best sold PC game titles chart since 1970 till now..
I notice the percentual number of RTS/TBS has stayed the same
Shooters however are on decline, sandbox seems to be taking there spot
RPG has decreased a bit, especially in later years
Adventure games have all but died out somewhere around 1995 (exept for the occational, dora the explorer game and such)
Arcade style games (from packman to flappy bird) always stoot strong, though they seem to be moving to mobile faster.
Puzzle games seen to be on the rise too, due their well suited for the mobile platform.

So sandbox has now about 25-35% of the gaming pie.. (meaning wargames are still the mayority) but things may chance soon, as the sandbox generation ages.

But that is only looking at the best sold titles, the number of titles is increasing too, with many indie games or cellphone apps having only a couple thousand sales, but add them all together and it adds up.. still my expectation is that added together you will see about the same shift..

[athelasloraiel]

Loved the game, ages ago my wife and I played the hell with it, trade routes were great.Thnx for pleasant reminders.

[Siddha]

Good to hear shooters are on the decline and sandbox on the rise
Lets hope it means something like a less violent and more imaginative and creative younger generation are on the rise
Thank you for sharing your studies
I also studied philosophy and some psychology
I am also fascinated by these sociological issues
Convinced gaming is an important human activity and barometer

[Blue Boogers]

I have CTPII on GOG also, I played a few rounds in the past and it seemed to be at least on the same level of Civilization. The public works system is much better than babysitting workers.

As for those side thoughts: videogames haven't always been just wargames, we had sandbox games like Sim City, and lots of adventure games like Monkey Island. There were definitely lots of wargames though. It's not surprising I guess, there's always a war happening somewhere and they have a huge impact on societies.

It's strange, I hate violence in real life, but I like violent videogames. Lately I've been reading WWII books, watching documentaries, and playing WWII games; I hate war but I consume war media. In the case of 4X games though, they are mostly abstractions flavoured by war; they aren't really gratuitous.

I really like Minecraft, especially since it encourages kids to make their own fun; it's like Lego evolved lol.