What's your definition of a P&C game?

[CrazyPyro69]

I think this will be an important discussion for this group as it grows larger. Its also a question I've been looking forward to talking about with other lovers of P&C titles. We can probably all agree on some of the more obvious ones (LucasArts SCUMM engine games, many Sierra Online titles, Wadjet Eye games, pretty much everything that uses Adventure Game Studio). But what about titles like Red Strings Club,Contradiction, and (insert your title here)?? Should games that are enjoyed by the CofP&C members be included in our curation even if they don't fit the perfect mold of what a P&C title is? As of right now I have red strings club and contradiction on the list but I am open to removing them even though I enjoy them. I'd personally like our curation to stick as much as possible to what our collective idea of what P&C games are. What do you think??

[Sunose]

I would say that any game that requires a mouse to play, has a story and a goal, has objects to interact with and an inventory to store them for later use, is a P&C game. I think of the genre as an umbrella term with sub-categories, mainly adventure.

[CrazyPyro69]

@ Sunrose Lol I never thought about it but I suppose the most basic definition should absolutely include "requires a mouse to play" lol. Although...with the rise of VR gaming I'm sure its only a matter of time before someone makes a great P&C VR game. There might already be one out there...unfortunately I have yet to get the fancy hardware :(. Having a story and a goal I totally agree with. Object interactivity and storage are a big part as well. I also think of it as an umbrella term. There is so much variety in the genre that it really does cross between a lot of other gaming styles as well. I was working on a list of "The Cardinal Rules of P&C gaming". I think the first rule on that list should ironically be "there are no rules". But I also want to differentiate them from certain other styles of games. For example, hidden object games. I have not played very many but I think they are a different category of game. Steam consolidates the two styles when doing a search for point & click games. Part of why I wanted to make the curation on this group is to provide a resource to ppl looking for "pure" P&C games. I also think visual novel games are in a group of their own as well. I think there is obviously a lot of overlap between p&c games and the two other genres I've listed. And with other genres too. How many p&c games have an arcade aspect? a puzzle aspect? an RPG element? Like you said it P&C really is an umbrella term. There is probably a p&c "spectrum". There are these things called radar charts. I'd really like to work on making one for P&C game metrics with the members of the group. I think it would be fun and could help provide a metric for judging titles as to how P&C they are :)

[American Dove Mitten]

Point&Click by itself does not tell as the genre. We probably would not put adventure games, hidden object games, puzzles games with no story, and visuals novels into the same category.

Now if you say a "point&click adventure", we are talking about story driven games with a hovering input. I would argue that adventure games predate the mouse, so you can't define a genre by that. If you put an adventure game on a console, it's still and adventure game that uses the analog instead of the mouse, the core design of the gameplay does not change. Some people actually prefer the WASD when available.

Here is how I would put it

- emphasis on the narrative. As vague as it may sound, the adventure game is about the adventure, having the character that go on some journey. The story might be written in text or completely visual, but there is a story in some form. It's not a pure puzzle game.
- emphasis on solving puzzles that move the story forward, and having the inventory to store the items.
- a moving character that responds to a single input (and again, that is more of a preference)

just like what we see with roguelite games, you can bend some rules and still preserve the core idea.

[CrazyPyro69]

@ American Beetle You make some interesting points. I think your right that we probably wouldnt put all those other genres under the banner of P&C. I do think that its possible for "P&C adventure games" to have elements of each of those other genres (hidden object, puzzle,visual novel,rpg,shooter) incorporated into the "standard" of P&C adventure.
There are also adventure games that have been put onto consoles (I myself played Thimbleweed Park on xbox) and its worked quite well. Early sierra games had hybrid setups where there was a textual interface as well as character movement via mouse or arrow keys. I think the genre has been defined as Point & Click because that's where some of the biggest well known titles are known for being on home computers. All of these titles and adventure games in general are descended from Colossal Cave Adventure, the first interactive fiction title from the late 70's that didn't have any kind of movement except textual input (i.e. typing in go left go right etc)
Narrative is crucial. Dropsy is an interesting example of a narrative driven point & click that has no actual language spoken besides pictograms. Puzzle solving is also crucial. A P&C with no good puzzles really borders on a visual novel or walking simulator.
People seem to be coalescing around a definition that requires inventory interaction. I agree but I also have this feeling in the back of my head that I've seen at least one or two that didn't have a direct inventory but I can't think of the specific examples.
These are exactly the kinds of conversations I was hoping to spur by starting this group! :)

[American Dove Mitten]

I think that adventure games with no inventory might feel more like interactive story. If that 'detective' element is missing from the game, I think it feels a bit different.

But I don't disagree with you, games are about innovation and trying different things. So naturally you will have games ranging from standard to anomalies.

The inventory is part of UI, it makes it easier to interact with the game. I am sure there are some games that did not tell you what items you had. So I think the inventory became a logical way to interact with the game.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/295250/Stranded/

Here is a good example of what I mean. Stranded feels like a linear story experience because it's not a puzzle game where you collect items, and many people were confused by it.

[American Dove Mitten]

https://store.steampowered.com/app/563860/The_Edgelands/

Here is a fun example

When I was about to put this game into a game list, I was not sure if it should go with point&click games or walking simulators.

It could easily be a point&click game, but it controls with keys.
It could have an inventory, but it just requires you to interact with things in the right order.
It feels like an interactive story, not a story with puzzle games in a sense that we can identify with adventure games.

I decided it had more in common with a 2D walking simulator than adventure game.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/968350/Hotel_Sowls/

On the other hand, here is a game that uses keys for movement and mouse for inspecting, and has items and puzzles. No mouse UI for mobility, but it very much feels like an adventure game.

[Sunose]

@ American Beetle It's true P&C games have expanded to consoles recently, I just did not think of that because I've always played P&C on PC.

So in the case of the P&C term, do you think that the medium to play a game does not matter in defining it? Is it still P&C if played on a console? Or even if it's played only with the keyboard?

Because from the comments above I get the feeling that when talking about P&C games, we basically think of an adventure game with a story, puzzles and so on, and we can have adventure games on any platform surely.

[CrazyPyro69]

@ American Beetle Those are two great examples of genre bending titles! I've seen some of your reviews you definitely find a lot of unique titles I've never seen before. I think games like that are probably not specifically what people have in mind when they think "P&C game" and yet they have so much overlap it shows how much of a spectrum there is when it comes to P&C games.

@Sunose That is a good question. Sure, a lot of P&C games could be ported over to console and work. The same could be said of some RTS games. I play Civ games often. I'm sure they could port it over to console. That being said, I wouldn't want to lol. I think we maybe veering off into semantics. There is point & click as a definitive term (pointing and clicking with a mouse or a controller) and point & click as a "genre" (which we seem to be heading towards as a specific type of adventure game that involves inventory and narrative story progression via puzzle solving)

I think I would like if this group tried to focus on the middle of the spectrum when it comes to P&C titles. To me the middle is things like classic Sierra/LucasArts as well as more recent indie titles made with Adventure Game Studio. I think there is room for certain FMV games and some hybrid RPG's as well. Games that incorporate a lot of action sequences, are primarily hidden object based, or seem to veer off into walking simulator/ visual novel games I'd like to keep seperate. That's just my preference and I want this group to be as democratic as possible so I am open to what others think. Probably the more controversial and ends of spectrum type games should at the very least be discussed before we put them into our curation listing.
Overall a "ya know it when you see it" kind of policy would be a good call for games that are genre bending and should be talked about. Feel free to add a new thread to list games you would like to see put in curation so we can discuss them!!!:)

[CrazyPyro69]

https://store.steampowered.com/app/680590/Minotaur/

Here is a game that I find hard to decide if I would add to our curation. I saw it described on their page as a "point & click exploration and puzzle game." There are a lot of games which I've been calling hidden object games that, after reading that description I think i would now call Point & Click exploration games. I don't know if I would consider this a P&C game. I mean it is and it isn't. It looks like it still has an inventory and puzzle solving that moves the story forward. I don't know if its the lack of animated sprites? Maybe its the "visual novel style narrative" that I'm getting hanged up on. Like i would still totally check this one out. It looks cool. But it also reminds me of those generic anime porno-ish games that are a dime a dozen as well as those hundreds of hidden object games that I can't tell apart that are out here on Steam. Idk maybe I just need to play it to form an accurate opinion. Does anyone else see why I would have a problem saying yes to this type of game right off the bat?

[American Dove Mitten]

Originally posted by Sunose:

@ American Beetle It's true P&C games have expanded to consoles recently, I just did not think of that because I've always played P&C on PC.

So in the case of the P&C term, do you think that the medium to play a game does not matter in defining it? Is it still P&C if played on a console? Or even if it's played only with the keyboard?

Because from the comments above I get the feeling that when talking about P&C games, we basically think of an adventure game with a story, puzzles and so on, and we can have adventure games on any platform surely.

The design of the UI definitely changes the experience of the game, but we are not talking about which buttons we prefer to push. It's more about the features and how they allow you to interact with the game.

A cursor in the game allows you to do unique moves. For example, you can inspect items from a distance, which you could not do if you had to use WASD for movement. When you say that point&click adventure should use the mouse, you are not wrong, but I think you are talking about the hovering UI as a whole, not the mouse.

If you control the cursor with analog, WASD or even cross key, you are not changing the actual features of the game because the UI was build for moving the cursor, not how you control it. But if the game does not have a hovering input of any kind, most people would not consider that an optimal way, even though it's possible to make an adventure game without it.

[American Dove Mitten]

Originally posted by CrazyPyro69:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/680590/Minotaur/

Here is a game that I find hard to decide if I would add to our curation. I saw it described on their page as a "point & click exploration and puzzle game." There are a lot of games which I've been calling hidden object games that, after reading that description I think i would now call Point & Click exploration games. I don't know if I would consider this a P&C game. I mean it is and it isn't. It looks like it still has an inventory and puzzle solving that moves the story forward. I don't know if its the lack of animated sprites? Maybe its the "visual novel style narrative" that I'm getting hanged up on. Like i would still totally check this one out. It looks cool. But it also reminds me of those generic anime porno-ish games that are a dime a dozen as well as those hundreds of hidden object games that I can't tell apart that are out here on Steam. Idk maybe I just need to play it to form an accurate opinion. Does anyone else see why I would have a problem saying yes to this type of game right off the bat?

I think a static visual novel can be considered an adventure game if you have items and puzzles to solve. If you can explore different areas instead of following a linear path, the lack of moving character does not change the core idea.

If it's just a story that controls with the the mouse, then it's just a visual novel.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/968370/The_Blind_Prophet/

I would consider that an adventure game because it has puzzles, exploration, items and it has a story progression.

[American Dove Mitten]

Here is another way to think about it

Interactive story pushes you through the adventure

An adventure game wants you to push the story

[CrazyPyro69]

Originally posted by American Beetle:

Here is another way to think about it

Interactive story pushes you through the adventure

An adventure game wants you to push the story

That's pure Steam Zen right there, I like that;)

[American Dove Mitten]

example from the same developer

https://store.steampowered.com/app/362680/Fran_Bow/

An adventure game where you have to put a lot of effort to experience the story (detective element)

https://store.steampowered.com/app/714120/Little_Misfortune/

So far, it's designed so everyone can experience the adventure (interactive-story). At least based on the demo

I would not consider 'Little_Misfortune' a traditional adventure game. And I don't mean it in a negative way, I am just not interacting with the game in a way that would remind me of those classic titles.

[snowblizzard]

It is realy hard to sort the adventures games in groups. Original a Point&click Game was for me an adventure game that has a third person view and was controlled by the mouse. You solve riddles, interact with items and have an inventory for the items.

For me these games have evolved. You have games where you need a keyboard too (if it is only a key to see the items in the scene). Many games changed to first person view (like a shooter) and have the same movement, but they are still adventures and have the same fuctions as a Point&Click Game. I times of game consoles you have today adventures that you can play with a controller.

I would divide into adventure game, visual novel, walking simulator and Telltale Games. In a Point&Click game the riddles can be very simple and the work with the inventory can be nearly zero. So it is a Point&Click Game, but focuses massive on the story.
Goetia has no inventory, but besides that everthing a good adventures needs. You need to memorise where the items are or carry them one by one to one place. But this little change makes the game a little bit more challeging.

Besides adventures games, there are riddle games (for example The Room). These game may interest players from P&C Games.

Contradiction was mentioned and that is a fmv adventure. You have riddles to solve, no walking simulator. It is similar to Gabriel Knight 2.
FMV games can be divided into two directions (adventure game or playable movie with QTE events).

Fran Bow is a Point&Click Game and I can recommend it to play. Little Misfortune is from the same studio and I think it wil be Point&Click, too. But we can say that for sure only when it was released and someone played it.

Minotaur will have riddles. The style of the game will look like a visuel novel. But we have to wait here, too, when it will be released. I backed it on kickstarter and it is one of the games I'm realy looking forward to.