Discussion: Should VAC bans continue to remain permanent forever?

[Laptop]

Hello,

More of an discussion / opinion more than anything (please don't come in here to complain / rant about your VAC ban due to cheating, this is intended to be an open discussion).

The general consensus is that VAC bans are permanent, non-negotiable and Steam Support cannot (and will not) remove them under any circumstances. If the ban was applied incorrectly, it will be removed quite quickly (and as we know this is very rare).

This is somewhat a "suggestion" but curious on people's thoughts - should a VAC ban continue to remain permanent given people grow up, change and it could be considered unfair to assume that "once a cheater, always a cheater"?

What do you all think? Should a VAC ban remain permanent forever for the entirety of someone's natural life? Or should they be considered for removal after X amount of years?

If VAC bans were considered to expire at some point, perhaps it could be a "you get one chance after X amount of time, if you cheat once more the VAC bans is for life with no exceptions ever."

For those that have never cheated and never had any VAC bans - remember that we all made silly mistakes and did stupid things when were younger, perhaps in our teenage years or a kid and may not have realised the mistakes and obviously impact something like a permanent VAC ban would have lasting forever on your Steam account!

Finally, I know making an alt is an option and the player is not forbidden from doing this, but in the long-term - people who have moved on from a silly immature cheating episode may appreciate the convenience of not having to switch from their main account to alt account when they have no intention of cheating ever again due to the permanent nature of a VAC ban.



Thanks


Note: I am not VAC banned nor ever been banned for cheating from any game online, a discussion with some friends (some of which who are VAC banned) has prompted this idea for topic and hopefully productive discussion.

[Wolf Knight]

temp bans where already tried and did nothing, this is why they are permanent. had you used the search you would have seen this has been tried already

[Laptop]

Originally posted by Wolf Knight:

temp bans where already tried and did nothing, this is why they are permanent. had you used the search you would have seen this has been tried already

Have 5 - 10 year bans been done in the past?

[ุ]

The fact users can just bypass their bans by making a new account is too lenient in and of itself. That and the facts that cheaters will go right on to a new account within moments after getting banned, just means they'll likely stockpile accounts and go RIGHT back onto cheating after the bans are lifted.


So, bans should definitely remain permanent.

[Wolf Knight]

Originally posted by Laptop:

Originally posted by Wolf Knight:

temp bans where already tried and did nothing, this is why they are permanent. had you used the search you would have seen this has been tried already

Have 5 - 10 year bans been done in the past?

5 yes, 10 no. no reason to keep doing something that is not working. the cheaters simply waited for the ban to expire and then cheat again on the account till it got banned again, then move to the next account and cheat till it got banned, rinse and repeat

[Laptop]

Originally posted by Leonardo Da Pinchi:

The fact users can just bypass their bans by making a new account is too lenient in and of itself. That and the facts that cheaters will go right on to a new account within moments after getting banned, just means they'll likely stockpile accounts and go RIGHT back onto cheating after the bans are lifted.


So, bans should definitely remain permanent.

Well that's why I suggested 5 - 10 years, if it's too short then yes stockpiling will happen and cheaters will have a rotation of accounts ready.

If someone is going to cheat across a 5 - 10 year period then that's a bit sad really but I don't think it is the majority.

Originally posted by Wolf Knight:

5 yes, 10 no. no reason to keep doing something that is not working. the cheaters simply waited for the ban to expire and then cheat again on the account till it got banned again, then move to the next account and cheat till it got banned, rinse and repeat

I don't think it's fair to assume the majority of people who cheat will do so again in 5 - 10 years. If we assume most cheaters are kids / teenagers then by that point they will have (hopefully) grown up and matured and won't repeat it a 2nd time.

Obviously if someone was granted an unban - cheating a 2nd time would them make it 100% permanent.

[ุ]

Originally posted by Laptop:

Originally posted by Leonardo Da Pinchi:

The fact users can just bypass their bans by making a new account is too lenient in and of itself. That and the facts that cheaters will go right on to a new account within moments after getting banned, just means they'll likely stockpile accounts and go RIGHT back onto cheating after the bans are lifted.


So, bans should definitely remain permanent.

Well that's why I suggested 5 - 10 years, if it's too short then yes stockpiling will happen and cheaters will have a rotation of accounts ready.

If someone is going to cheat across a 5 - 10 year period then that's a bit sad really but I don't think it is the majority.

Originally posted by Wolf Knight:

5 yes, 10 no. no reason to keep doing something that is not working. the cheaters simply waited for the ban to expire and then cheat again on the account till it got banned again, then move to the next account and cheat till it got banned, rinse and repeat

I don't think it's fair to assume the majority of people who cheat will do so again in 5 - 10 years. If we assume most cheaters are kids / teenagers then by that point they will have (hopefully) grown up and matured and won't repeat it a 2nd time.

Obviously if someone was granted an unban - cheating a 2nd time would them make it 100% permanent.

The issue with the 5 year ban is, well, Steam has proof that it doesn't deter return cheaters, so much so it's what influenced their decision to make bans permanent in the first place.

But let's circle back to your original statement for a bit:

"Finally, I know making an alt is an option and the player is not forbidden from doing this, but in the long-term - people who have moved on from a silly immature cheating episode may appreciate the convenience of not having to switch from their main account to alt account when they have no intention of cheating ever again due to the permanent nature of a VAC ban."

You're aware that removing the permanence of a VAC ban, would make them MORE likely to cheat correct? Because then there'd be no "permanence" to speak of.

Hell, it says in the ToS/SSA that Valve hold onto the right to terminate your account entirely for breaking them. Be glad they don't.

[Qbert ⭐]

A banned cheater can give back the time, ranks, etc to legit players?

No. So ban should stay forever.

[C²C^Guyver |NZB|]

Yes they should. That's what permanent means, forever.

Valve started working on a "long-term solution" for cheating in 2001. VAC's initial release was with Counter-Strike in 2002. During this initial release, the system only banned players for 24 hours. The duration of the ban was increased over time; players were banned for 1 year and 5 years, until VAC2 was released in 2005, when any new bans became permanent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Anti-Cheat

Valve had to make them permanent because people kept cheating.

[Sasori Kigaru]

I prefer the permanent bans, its far more of a deterrent this way. The risk of having that mark of shame on the account is more than enough to deter the type of person that is considering cheating but isn't sold on it.

The type of person that wants to cheat anyway though despite the risk? Very little will stop them and they've willingly made their choice.

Now I will freely admit that in the case of a hijacker using someone's account to cheat, that certainly DOES suck since the original account owner didn't cheat themselves. But it still falls on them for improperly securing their account/giving away the access to it in the first place.

[Laptop]

Originally posted by Leonardo Da Pinchi:

The issue with the 5 year ban is, well, Steam has proof that it doesn't deter return cheaters, so much so it's what influenced their decision to make bans permanent in the first place.

But let's circle back to your original statement for a bit:

"Finally, I know making an alt is an option and the player is not forbidden from doing this, but in the long-term - people who have moved on from a silly immature cheating episode may appreciate the convenience of not having to switch from their main account to alt account when they have no intention of cheating ever again due to the permanent nature of a VAC ban."

You're aware that removing the permanence of a VAC ban, would make them MORE likely to cheat correct? Because then there'd be no "permanence" to speak of.

Hell, it says in the ToS/SSA that Valve hold onto the right to terminate your account entirely for breaking them. Be glad they don't.

5 years is quite a time to be THAT committed to be a cheater, but if that's the case then make it 8 or 10. That's a LONG time which I doubt the majority would be waiting to cheat all over again, especially if the cheating was when they were a kid / teenager.

As for your final comment about being glad that Valve don't ban an entire Steam account - I suspect this would cause issues in causes where someone's account was actually hijacked and now they've lost it all forever and they would make less money as a platform if it was that easy to lose an entire Steam account from cheating on one game.

Originally posted by Qbert ⭐:

A banned cheater can give back the time, ranks, etc to legit players?

No. So ban should stay forever.

Time is a healer and people make mistakes.

Originally posted by C²C^Guyver |NZB|:

Yes they should. That's what permanent means, forever.

Valve started working on a "long-term solution" for cheating in 2001. VAC's initial release was with Counter-Strike in 2002. During this initial release, the system only banned players for 24 hours. The duration of the ban was increased over time; players were banned for 1 year and 5 years, until VAC2 was released in 2005, when any new bans became permanent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Anti-Cheat

Valve had to make them permanent because people kept cheating.

Yes I'm aware they weren't permanent once upon a time however 2005 is nearly 20 years ago! Surely a review of the system would not hurt.

Originally posted by Sasori Kigaru:

I prefer the permanent bans, its far more of a deterrent this way. The risk of having that mark of shame on the account is more than enough to deter the type of person that is considering cheating but isn't sold on it.

The type of person that wants to cheat anyway though despite the risk? Very little will stop them and they've willingly made their choice.

Now I will freely admit that in the case of a hijacker using someone's account to cheat, that certainly DOES suck since the original account owner didn't cheat themselves. But it still falls on them for improperly securing their account/giving away the access to it in the first place.

To be fair Valve will eventually remove the public VAC ban mark on your account after X amount of years now, though the ban itself is still there.

Again the point you've made about deterrence isn't really a strong argument against those who cheated when they were a dumb kid and didn't know any better.

Originally posted by Ettanin:

Another reason why bans should stay permanent:

If bans were temporary, inventory could be retrieved. Bans in free-to-play games with tradable inventory would cease to become meaningful.

5 - 10 years seems a long reasonable period to have to wait for this.

[Silicon Vampire]

Not just no, ♥♥♥♥ NO!

-edit—

Reply directed to post immediately above

[Duck Twacy]

Originally posted by Wolf Knight:

temp bans where already tried and did nothing, this is why they are permanent. had you used the search you would have seen this has been tried already

Yeah, I remember browsing accounts with multiple bans. You don't see those anymore.

I just don't get why you would cheat in an MP game ... if there was money involved, some criminal gambling thing or something, I could see a motivation.

But to DL a hack and cheat for the sake of showing off? Why play at all? And it's mostly kids. For a game that was meant for the college age crowd and older.

I'm just sorry VAC can't be applied to other games. I can't tell you how many boom and invulnerability or damage hacks, or just plain trolling, I was subject to in AoE2.

The most memorable hack I ever saw was a US serviceman playing a sniper, and when I speced him his bolt action sniper rifle was on "full auto".

Years back I had invites and opportunities to go into games, and I wanted to, but given the hacking crisis or epidemic, I'm glad I never did.

I wish VAC could just work with every game associated with Steam.

[Abigail From Sneaky Squid Dept.]

And what about all the people that were cheated against and had their time wasted and their fun ruined?

Frankly if you want your vac ban removed, you should have to replay every match you cheated in with the people you cheated against... Oh but they now get to cheat against you.
If you win all your matches you get unbanned.

[Sasori Kigaru]

Originally posted by Laptop:

Originally posted by Sasori Kigaru:

I prefer the permanent bans, its far more of a deterrent this way. The risk of having that mark of shame on the account is more than enough to deter the type of person that is considering cheating but isn't sold on it.

The type of person that wants to cheat anyway though despite the risk? Very little will stop them and they've willingly made their choice.

Now I will freely admit that in the case of a hijacker using someone's account to cheat, that certainly DOES suck since the original account owner didn't cheat themselves. But it still falls on them for improperly securing their account/giving away the access to it in the first place.

To be fair Valve will eventually remove the public VAC ban mark on your account after X amount of years now, though the ban itself is still there.

Again the point you've made about deterrence isn't really a strong argument against those who cheated when they were a dumb kid and didn't know any better.

At 13+ you're old enough to know that what you're doing is upsetting people and hurting the experiences of those you're playing against.

Knowing what a VAC ban is and what it'd mean for my account is specifically why I didn't cheat on steam when I was younger and even to this day. Will it deter everyone? No, but it deters the ones its meant to. As for the rest that do it anyway? Well..

Actions have consequences, VAC bans are harsh but you learn a valuable lesson.
Don't cheat in multiplayer games.

[Gold]

This forum has seen the very same question time and time again.

You of all people repeating it too. By now, you should know what the search function is for.