VAC's trust system.

[Sharpie The Dragon]

I'd like to put a small disclaimer here that I don't have a VAC ban/Game ban, ect. I, like most people are against cheating in multiplayer games.

Now, I've been critical of VAC for quite some time now directly because it's a trust system. The deal is that if you cheat, you get VAC banned and that false positives are looking into by Valve and unlawful VAC bans are revoked. This is how it should be working.

Although in my mind, this is a terrible system and the potential for abuse is completely at Valve's discretion. How are we supposed to know that they aren't gaming the system and banning legitimate players? It might sound like I have a tin-foil hat on, but how would you know?

Imagine a scenario where a VAC ban on your account is triggered and you know that you're in the right. The problem is, Valve does NOT give you any reason as to why you was banned. You're left under the speculation and mercy of what they decide. You get VAC banned? They don't need to give you a reason, now I completely understand that this is used so that cheaters can't ask why they were banned and then report it to the cheating website/host.

Except that the cheaters already know why they were VAC banned. Legitimate players do not. Cheaters will continue to manipulate the system under trial and error, like it has been for since the dawn of it's creation. Simply giving the VAC banned user a message like 'You have been banned for aimbot.' (or something similar) Will hardly give away a lot in terms of manipulation. And if the VAC team is so afraid of having their system manipulated, then you could put it under system where the information of that cheat is withheld to the VAC banned user until X amount of days/weeks/months. By then VAC should have been updated enough that the cheat used will be obsolete.

Giving that Valve only has 360 employees (Wikipedia link)[en.wikipedia.org] to encompass around 125 million Steam users (Kotaku link) (both sources are from 2015). There is a reason to be concerned, Valve doesn't just focus on VAC, it has to focus on Steam, their support system, reporting system, development/updates of games, ect. That sure is a lot of work for the 360 people who are responsible for millions of users of Steam. Almost seven million VAC bans have been given out: https://steamdb.info/stats/bans/, that's to say that there are tens of thousands of people who were VAC banned unfairly and for that matter how would anyone know? Having a VAC ban on your account is absolutely devastating, it's not reasons I need to explain why, but a major one is harassment on your account for pretty much the rest of your Steam career.

And there are still defacto cheats still in the Left 4 Dead 2 workshop. Let me just say, these are incredibly abusive in Multiplayer, source 1 I've reported multiple of times to Valve and it has not been removed, these reports stem back from years ago. This is unrelated to VAC but it's an example of what VAC SHOULD be targeting.

Workshop cheats here:

Source 1
Source 2

Back to VAC, the fact that you need to check if an application online will cause a VAC is not only tedious but also strikes an amount of paranoia. Take for example using SweetFX (which is a graphical injector, to make games look better.) Or the ENB Mod (which I BELIEVE is a graphical injector to make games look better too, correct me if wrong), but I believe that the ENB Mod gives you a VAC ban should you use it in a VAC secured server. Where is the line drawn when it comes to VAC? What if I just want to make my games look that bit nicer? Is that classified as being a filthy cheater and worthy of a VAC ban? I get that there are a ton of injectors, but it would be nice to have an official whitelist for applications/injectors that obviously aren't the definition of cheating. To get VAC banned just for wanting better graphics in said Valve game would be ridiculous and cruel, but again, it's absolutely up to Valve's discretion to decide that, and of course, to say that you're banned without giving a reason.

I would also like to touch more on game bans if that would be okay here, it'll be short. I don't agree with developers having the ability to ask Valve to give a 'red tag' game ban on their Steam account. It for one, does not even state the game (which Valve also unfortunately lacks an ability to publicly share on said account), but also that these are separate developers, Valve didn't develop these games. Are we supposed to trust developers with the ability to give game bans out on 3rd party games and Valve accepting this? At the very least they aren't VAC bans, and their ban system is entirely under the developers discretion too, so they can tell you why you was banned or not (but not all games are intrinsically linked and have their own definition of what a cheat is, like FOV changes.)

Please correct me of anything that isn't true here. Thanks.

[killaboygamer2]

the workshop cheats arent cheats because they have to go through valve to put them on the work shop pretty sure valve wouldnt put cheats on the workshop lol those are only l4d things 2 so pretty sure valve didnt care if those "cheats" was on the l4d workshop lol

[C²C^Guyver |NZB|]

lol.....Do you realize that VAC bans were not always permanent? Valve tried temp VAC bans. Guess what? People would get unbanned and continue cheating....which is why they're permanent now. VAC works just fine.

[Sharpie The Dragon]

killaboygamer2 ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.com eredeti hozzászólása:

the workshop cheats arent cheats because they have to go through valve to put them on the work shop pretty sure valve wouldnt put cheats on the workshop lol those are only l4d things 2 so pretty sure valve didnt care if those "cheats" was on the l4d workshop lol

But clearly these addons give an advantage to a player in multiplayer, pretty much the definition of cheating. Yet Valve has not removed them, it alienates VAC's system by putting it through to a legitimate system; The workshop. Valve not caring is precisely the problem involving the workshop.

[Sharpie The Dragon]

C²C^Guyver |NZB| eredeti hozzászólása:

lol.....Do you realize that VAC bans were not always permanent? Valve tried temp VAC bans. Guess what? People would get unbanned and continue cheating....which is why they're permanent now. VAC works just fine.

I am aware of that, but you are not aware of what my topic is about. If players are actually cheating, they SHOULD stay permanently banned. It's that trust in Valve for those who are unfairly banned is the problem here. Valve doesn't need to give you a reason for your ban, you're just banned. Done. Not even giving a reason is incredibly unfair to the recipient who could possibly be unlawfully banned. How legitimate does the system sound if you're not warranted a reason?

[C²C^Guyver |NZB|]

They also don't have to give a reason for a VAC ban .....because it's the same reason. Cheating. Valve Anti Cheat

Seems clear enoungh.

Going in-depth is something they will not do, nor should they. Doing doing would be useful to cheaters and cheat makers. Which, is also why VAC bans are delayed.

[C²C^Guyver |NZB|]

Sharples eredeti hozzászólása:

C²C^Guyver |NZB| eredeti hozzászólása:

lol.....Do you realize that VAC bans were not always permanent? Valve tried temp VAC bans. Guess what? People would get unbanned and continue cheating....which is why they're permanent now. VAC works just fine.

I am aware of that, but you are not aware of what my topic is about. If players are actually cheating, they SHOULD stay permanently banned. It's that trust in Valve for those who are unfairly banned is the problem here. Valve doesn't need to give you a reason for your ban, you're just banned. Done. Not even giving a reason is incredibly unfair to the recipient who could possibly be unlawfully banned. How legitimate does the system sound if you're not warranted a reason?

Incorrect VAC bans are automatically removed, if it's not removed, it's correct. Simple as.

[Sharpie The Dragon]

C²C^Guyver |NZB| eredeti hozzászólása:

They also don't have to give a reason for a VAC .....because it's the same reason. Cheating. Valve Anti Cheat

Going in-depth is something they will not do, nor should they. Doing doing would be useful to cheaters and cheat makers. Which, is also why VAC bans are delayed.

That's an issue for trust, the problem is not getting a reason for the ban that you didn't commit. I have already highlighted in my discussion as a counteract to not giving a reason.

[Sharpie The Dragon]

C²C^Guyver |NZB| eredeti hozzászólása:

Sharples eredeti hozzászólása:

I am aware of that, but you are not aware of what my topic is about. If players are actually cheating, they SHOULD stay permanently banned. It's that trust in Valve for those who are unfairly banned is the problem here. Valve doesn't need to give you a reason for your ban, you're just banned. Done. Not even giving a reason is incredibly unfair to the recipient who could possibly be unlawfully banned. How legitimate does the system sound if you're not warranted a reason?

Incorrect VAC bans are automatically removed, if it's not removed, it's correct. Simple as.

And we're supposed to trust that, with only 360 employees encompassing 125 million years with over 7 million VAC bans?

[C²C^Guyver |NZB|]

Sharples eredeti hozzászólása:

C²C^Guyver |NZB| eredeti hozzászólása:

They also don't have to give a reason for a VAC .....because it's the same reason. Cheating. Valve Anti Cheat

Going in-depth is something they will not do, nor should they. Doing doing would be useful to cheaters and cheat makers. Which, is also why VAC bans are delayed.

That's an issue for trust, the problem is not getting a reason for the ban that you didn't commit. I have already highlighted in my discussion as a counteract to not giving a reason.

So picture this. You get falsely VAC banned and you want Valve to tell you and the whole world what triggered it? Now think, closely. The bad guys are listening too. Remember that "whole world" part? Yeah.


Common sense.

[C²C^Guyver |NZB|]

Sharples eredeti hozzászólása:

C²C^Guyver |NZB| eredeti hozzászólása:

Incorrect VAC bans are automatically removed, if it's not removed, it's correct. Simple as.

And we're supposed to trust that, with only 360 employees encompassing 125 million years with over 7 million VAC bans?

Trust it, or not. Your choice. People like you will always baffle me. You cry foul yet still happily use the very thing you complain about. Log out, and never look back, but somehow I am guessing you won't do that.

[Sharpie The Dragon]

C²C^Guyver |NZB| eredeti hozzászólása:

Sharples eredeti hozzászólása:

That's an issue for trust, the problem is not getting a reason for the ban that you didn't commit. I have already highlighted in my discussion as a counteract to not giving a reason.

So picture this. You get falsely VAC banned and you want Valve to tell you and the whole world what triggered it? Now think, closely. The bad guys are listening too. Remember that "whole world" part? Yeah.


Common sense.

Except that the bad guys would already know why they were VAC banned because they use the cheat signatures. They go by trial and error, experimination of said cheat. If a cheater asks support why they were banned, and they say something like aimbot, honestly what information could the cheater disect from that message when they are already aware of the very cheat they are using? They'll just keep modifiying the cheat and I believe it would be negligable in their interests to go to Steam support, and even if they do, Valve could just simply withhold this information for a period of days or weeks so that the cheat is obsolete and any information shared would also be obsolete to the cheat makers (since VAC consistantly modifies) They would know their cheat would be working if it went undetected through their automated system, not what support says.

[C²C^Guyver |NZB|]

Wrong again. VAC bans are delayed so they never know exactly what was triggered. It's not "try a cheat, insta-ban."

[C²C^Guyver |NZB|]

lol....Valve would never say "aimbot" or anything. They simply remain silent. You really don't know how this works, do you?

[The Giving One]

Sharples eredeti hozzászólása:

Now, I've been critical of VAC for quite some time now directly because it's a trust system. The deal is that if you cheat, you get VAC banned and that false positives are looking into by Valve and unlawful VAC bans are revoked. This is how it should be working..

Your OP is full of incorrect statements. This above is among them.

That IS how it is working. Incorrectly applied VAC bans are removed automatically.

VAC bans are permanent, non-negotiable, and cannot be removed by Steam Support.

If a VAC ban is determined to have been issued incorrectly, it will automatically be removed.

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=7849-RADZ-6869

Here is another thread you might find of interest, as well as clarification on some of the misinformation getting spread around.

Does VAC work?

Reality: The simple fact is, for all intents and purposes VAC does work. Even community measured metrics show that[steamdb.info], relative to the growth of Steam and the popular games, so have the amount of cheat bans. The real number is likely even bigger.

For further discussion please see this thread:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/730/discussions/0/1621726179584501164/

You might find that interesting, at least the OP and several of the first posts.

[NotSoBad]

Sharples eredeti hozzászólása:

Imagine a scenario where a VAC ban on your account is triggered and you know that you're in the right. The problem is, Valve does NOT give you any reason as to why you was banned. You're left under the speculation and mercy of what they decide. You get VAC banned? They don't need to give you a reason, now I completely understand that this is used so that cheaters can't ask why they were banned and then report it to the cheating website/host.

The chance that you will recieve a false ban is actually under 0,001%, if you think that you are the victim and you`re innocent, then you still have the chance to contact the VAC review team.