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Karrion NightStalker 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 3:42
Crowdfunding - Early access would it be considered the same thing?
Been having a discussion with a game developer that thought his kick starter campaign was legal.. Well long story short as of May 16th, 2016 No it's not legal, any business involved in crowd funding must give securities in exchange for money received, this means they must be given a share of the business creating the game or a share of the game itself. Also any site involved in such transactions must be registered with the SEC. Being as kick starter is not registered with the SEC and the campaigns there do not give securities in exchange for money those campaigns are actually Illegal. Now it would be a different story if the game was not being made for profit, i.e. final product had no subscription, no cash shop, no one time box sale and it's development and life is totally supported by donations with no mechanism that promotes a player to give a donation. Essentially in the game non-donating members would have the same access as donating members. (this is why shroud of the avatar actually switched to seed invest instead of kick starter).

That being said, could early access game sales be considered a type of crowdfunding? My belief is that it is in fact a form of crowdfunding and falls under the scope of the securities and exchange Title III rulings. If so since early access games are not finished products and securities are not exchanged and since steam is not registered with the SEC that both steam and the developer selling early access games are breaking the law.

Any lawyers around that can clear this up?
最後修改者:Karrion NightStalker; 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 3:53
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Perrywinkle 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 4:00 
and, here we go again, if you dont like early acces games dont buy it, also no need to overthink and play the lawyer because is a no end discussion.
Karrion NightStalker 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 4:05 
Not playing lawyer, I already won the crowd funding debate. I am looking at stopping shady practices.. Also preparing to file a complaint with the SEC, at this moment, as the legal definition of crowd funding looks like it does cover early access games... it's not a matter of buyer beware the SEC exists to protect the consumer against illicit activity like early access games, i just don't think anyone has stopped to consider that early access is another for of crowdfunding.

"crowd funding typically makes use of online communities to solicit pledges of small amounts of money from individuals who are typically not professional financiers."

Steam users would be the community, the small amounts of money would be the fee for the early access.
最後修改者:Karrion NightStalker; 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 4:14
Pheace 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 4:14 
What did you win if Kickstarter's still up and running?
Karrion NightStalker 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 4:20 
引用自 Pheace
What did you win if Kickstarter's still up and running?

That's easy to explain, kick starter itself claims to be for the realization of projects, not the realization of products. So in other words as long as your not making money off your project the kick starter campaign does not fall under the sec title III rulings, this is how they get around that.. and since i highly doubt they monitor the campaigns some still exist, however you'll notice that most are moving to sites that operate under the proper rules. Basically the only ones posting the products on kick starter are those that do not know the rule exists as it is fairly new. But what i won was the debate and the person i was debating pulled down his campaign to set up properly before moving to the proper site. This is actually a good thing, as going through the process of creating an actual business and setting up so you can actually sell securities at least lends to some legitimacy of the campaign.
最後修改者:Karrion NightStalker; 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 4:21
Faedrill 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 4:21 
You dont buy a product that maybe will be relese in the future. You buy the game in his current state not the finished version or promises. You get all updates that will come for this game for free (not included dlc,addon,....)

Thats no fraud,scam or whatever, There is a blue box that tell you what you are buying if someone ignore,cant read or dont understand it, its not the fault of the game, early acces.
最後修改者:Faedrill; 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 4:27
Pheace 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 4:22 
Fair enough, interesting.
Karrion NightStalker 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 4:34 
引用自 Faedrill
You dont buy a product that maybe will be relese in the future. You buy the game in his current state not the finished version or promises. You get all updates that will come for this game for free (not included dlc,addon,....)

Thats no frau,scam or whatever, There is a blue box that tell you what you are buying if someone ignore,cant read or dont understand it, its not the fault of the game, early acces.

Ok this will be the last response i give for now because im going to sleep. Your not buying the game in it's current state, if you were dividends from the sale would be going to the games investors. When in fact the money is going towards the development of the game, which means you have become an investor. This type of thing is exactly why the sec created the rules in title III.
Pheace 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 4:41 
When in fact the money is going towards the development of the game, which means you have become an investor.

This I'm skeptical about. Same could be said about profits of a game being used for future free content/expansions but you're not an investor then either. Freemium games with cash stores, MMO's etc fund further development from current earnings as well.
Kargor 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 4:42 
Also, "Early Access" is not even remotely similar to "crowd funding".

"Crowd funding" is basically you sending money to some guy who promises that he want's to do something. Usually, you'll get the promise that you'll receive the product that's being developed, so it's more like pre-ordering a product that hasn't even started development yet. And, of course, you can't cancel this kind of "pre-order". I don't see a reason to buy stuff like that, so that's it.

With "Early Access" you're buying the product early (so again, similar to pre-ordering, except that you can't cancel it), but you're also getting access to the current development version of the game. This pretty much only makes sense for software -- "early access" on hardware would require them to mass-produce prototypes and give them away for free which would be just stupid,

The main "problem" with Kickstarter and Early Access is that people seem to think it's something that it isn't. For Kickstarter, when Occulus sold itself to Facebook, several people complained that they should have been asked since they are the "investors" and ought to have a voice in a decision like that. But -- they aren't investors. Or, if they are, they are very bad ones since they signed a contract that doesn't give them any control at all.

Likewise, "Early Access" is not a finished product, possibly not even close to it. If you don't want to cope with that, don't buy it (I certainly don't).

That's the thing with "protecting customers": I would very much prefer to be protected from things that I can't really control, like Steam's business practices. I don't need to be protected from Early Access or Kickstarter since I can just not send them any money and that's it.
Karrion NightStalker 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 4:43 
引用自 Pheace
When in fact the money is going towards the development of the game, which means you have become an investor.

This I'm skeptical about. Same could be said about profits of a game being used for future free content/expansions but you're not an investor then either. Freemium games with cash stores, MMO's etc fund further development from current earnings as well.

Key point is the game is finished product it's post launch.
Pheace 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 4:59 
引用自 Pheace

This I'm skeptical about. Same could be said about profits of a game being used for future free content/expansions but you're not an investor then either. Freemium games with cash stores, MMO's etc fund further development from current earnings as well.

Key point is the game is finished product it's post launch.

That's not true with either Freemium games nor MMO's in most cases and with EA you're specifically told you're buying what's there the moment you buy it, not a future product, so in that sense, you get the product you're paying for right then and there.
HLCinSC 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 5:51 
In all likelyhood, if this SEC rule was enacted over a year ago(and assuming you are correct in your interpretation of it), that Valve, Kickstarter, and various others and their expensive legal teams have already reiewed the matter and possibly has tweaked their terms so they think they comply.

Currently, the SEC still has 2 of the 5 seats vacant and with the rate the Trump administration has been undoing Obama era regulations, I would not be surprised to see this decision revisited when those seats are filled.
最後修改者:HLCinSC; 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 6:36
 KARR™ 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 5:53 

Ok this will be the last response i give for now because im going to sleep. Your not buying the game in it's current state, if you were dividends from the sale would be going to the games investors. When in fact the money is going towards the development of the game, which means you have become an investor. This type of thing is exactly why the sec created the rules in title III.

You are buying the game in its current state. It clearly says that. Any updates you get afterwards are free bonuses, the makers are under NO obligation to develop the game further, they could use your money to go down the shops, to develop, or to move on to something else. You also don't have any idea IF money goes to the actual investors of the game or not. Many early access games won't have external investors and it'll be the small 4 or 5 people who get the money and maybe they ARE fulfilling their investment and getting the money back, so they can afford to keep working on it.

You could say that pre-orders are also under this umbrella. Although pre-orders are NOT buying in a current state and are in fact paying for development for when the product is finished and ready for selling.
Spawn of Totoro 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 6:11 
https://www.sec.gov/news/pressrelease/2015-249.html
https://www.sec.gov/oiea/investor-alerts-bulletins/ib_crowdfunding-.html

I find nothing stated about companies being required to provide a stake in the company when crowdfunding. Only that they can offer such a stake through crowd funding.

It is called Equity Crowdfunding[en.wikipedia.org]

Kickstarted and Equity Crowdfunding are two diffrent things, as explained here:
https://www.seedinvest.com/blog/crowdfunding/this-is-not-kickstarter

Can you state your source(s) please?

As far as I can see, Kickstarter is completely legal.

As has been said, Early Access is not an investment. You are buying a product in it's current state and being told it may change or not even be finished in advance.
最後修改者:Spawn of Totoro; 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 6:15
Satoru 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 6:15 
Let's count the number of total and catastrophic failures here

Let use a small thing called "using references" and "reading"

https://www.sec.gov/oiea/investor-alerts-bulletins/ib_crowdfunding-.html

Previous rules around raising equity were based around a small number of investors. The March 2015 rules provide a framework for crowdfunded equity funding

THIS DOES NOT MEAN ALL KICKSTARTERS MUST BE SEC APPROVED

It means if you decide to do so there are now clear rules from the SEC to facilitate this

https://www.fig.co/invest

Unless you EXPLICITY state that you are fundraising for equity you don't get equity. Note on Fig you have two tiers

1) normal crowd funded with no equity
2) equity based crowd funding

You did not "win the kickstarter argument". You failed out of the gate

Every other argument you make is moot. No one has to sell you equity in the company if they don't want to. The SEC does not require it. It doesn't matter if you call it Kickstarter, Early Access etc. you are not entitled to equity

You are 1000% wrong
最後修改者:Satoru; 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 6:16
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張貼日期: 2017 年 6 月 14 日 上午 3:42
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