Bad use of "SIMULATION" or "SIMULATOR" tag

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Guys... please can you STOP using the "simulation" or "simulator" tag for every game out there? I want to clean my steam browsing by filtering tags and it happens that the simulation tag is everywhere!
City building games? BOOM! simulator tag!
Action shooter? BOOM! simulator tag!
Farming RPG? BOOM! simulator tag!
RTS old school? BOOM! now it is considered a f***ing SIMULATOR!!!!!

STOP USING THE SIMULATOR TAG FOR EVERYTING!! PLEASE LET IT BE USED FOR REAL SIMULATORS like flight simulators or some driving simulators.


EDIT:

If any Steam dev happens to read this thread (I doubt this) please I ask you to take action by:

A. Stop the people from creating tags and tagging. No more free will to create tags and use them to tag games.

B. Narrow down to the core tags, that is leaving only the basic tags e.g strategy, simulation, rpg... etc they should be available only for steam staff, store mantainers and devs to tag their own games (which MUST be approved by steam staff).

C. Create an internal set of rules defining how the tags will be used by devs and staff. Too diferent tags can´t be used in the same game (e.g Strategy, Sports) . Games should only have no more than one or two tags. Obviously they must make sense.






D. TAG RULES:

1 - Simulation tag should be used only for Flight Sims, Driving Sims and no more than that.

2 - FPS are just FPS (even if they are realistic like ARMA series).

3 - Strategy games are no more "simulation" games even if the name states so (e.g Simcity).

3B-Strategy games tags should use the criteria of "old school" strategy games. Chess games for example would fall into the "board game" tag. Management and city building tags dilute into Strategy.

4 - RPGs are just RPGs. Even if they are turn based with strategy elements or other elements. JRPGs (and many others that don´t come to my mind right now) dilute into the RPG tag.

5 - Visual novels (in my opinion should be wiped off the entire store) should be in the visual novel tag. No RPG or Adventure should be mixed in them. (hell they should be banned.. they are not even games!)

6 - Indie games. You can´t tag a game because it is indie. It MUST fall into one of the other main tags.

7 - "Living simulators" are not a genre. They are either RPGS (e.g Stardew Valley) or Sandbox (The sims series). For the curious: why the difference? in Stardew Valley you follow a history line. In The Sims, you don´t. Also RPG means Rol Playing Game if you didn´t know.

8 - Adult tagging. Adult games should only be used for explicit porn or erotic games (with "erotic" I mean a game that is based on nudity.
8B- Games that have some kind of erotic moments in it storyline (no porn intended) are OUT of this tag and are rated with conventional R ratings in the steam store. They must be tagged according to its main genre.
8C- Hentai tag (and alikes) is/are diluted into adult tag.
8D- Puzzle games with erotic/pornographic images go into the adult tag. Not Puzzle.

9 - Puzzle tag is strictly for puzzle games. No more puzzle tag in Zelda -esque games. THOSE ARE RPGS, REMEMBER.

10 - "Crafting" games are reserved to Minecraft clones in all their flavors. (yeah millions of them lately).

11 - "Survival" games could be mixed with "Horror" if the case happens.

12 - Zombie tag.
12B- If the game has zombies but you have to build a base to hold them in isometric view, it is a Strategy tag (thinking of Stronghold series here, something like that with zombies).
12C- If the game has zombies and you have to survive see point 11.
12D- If the game has zombies and you run like crazy with a gun top down view it is a shooter.
12E- You can figure out the rest

13 - Limit the "Adventure" tag. Remember, the plot should be used to tag only if the game cannot be tagged as any of the other primary tags. You will find that most of the now called "adventure" games are platformers disguised in 3D.

14 - Sports. Driving games should NOT be tagged as sports. This is purely to mantain order in the tagging system. (I totally know that car racing are sports in real life, but please erase that from your mind, we are NOT using real life thinking to tag, it is purely to make easier the sorting, filtering and searching of the store; this applies to all the rules above by the way)

15 - Users should STILL (yeah I know you can do it as it is now, thanks) be able to report bad tags.

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Publicado originalmente por Walach:

This reminds me of when I was trying to understand what a game in "alpha" was and what a game in "beta" was, the difference that is. In the end I just asked a couple of game developers and the answer I got from them was something like this:
"It's a alpha because we say it is and it's a beta because we say it is aswell." :P

This thing with tags might just be something which I do not understand, but I don't really get any useful information from them as just beacause it's one or the other doesn't mean I'll enjoy it.

EDIT: Ohh I forgot. When it comes to simulators I mostly think of things like this;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEotOL1B3Lw
Somehow I can't think of something as a simulation when it doesn't simulate movement for you as a person. Come to think about it, VR games are also simulation games for me! :O

This reminds me of when I was trying to understand what a game in "alpha" was and what a game in "beta" was, the difference that is. In the end I just asked a couple of game developers and the answer I got from them was something like this:
"It's a alpha because we say it is and it's a beta because we say it is aswell." :P

Ok, I don´t know why it reminds you that, but you definitely got trolled there. Development stages determine the maturity of the development of a program (game in this case). Alpha is the rough idea of the program working, FULL of bugs sometimes it doesn´t even have an ending, more like a sketch. Beta is the program more mature, fewer bugs and good for testing for the final launch.

This thing with tags might just be something which I do not understand, but I don't really get any useful information from them as just beacause it's one or the other doesn't mean I'll enjoy it.

Sorry I didn´t quite get it there. If you don´t use them... why are you here in the first place? why do you care if they exist or not?

Somehow I can't think of something as a simulation when it doesn't simulate movement for you as a person. Come to think about it, VR games are also simulation games for me! :O

That is why we need someone from the service provider (STEAM) to "guide" us into how to call things (games). And you are a little bit on my team there, I also think that Simcity is a strategy game not a simulator. The discrepancy here is that VR games are not always simulations. For example if the VR game is like "counter strike VR" its a VR FPS.

[_??_]

Publicado originalmente por crunchyfrog:

Publicado originalmente por Walach:

This reminds me of when I was trying to understand what a game in "alpha" was and what a game in "beta" was, the difference that is. In the end I just asked a couple of game developers and the answer I got from them was something like this:
"It's a alpha because we say it is and it's a beta because we say it is aswell." :P

This thing with tags might just be something which I do not understand, but I don't really get any useful information from them as just beacause it's one or the other doesn't mean I'll enjoy it.

EXACTLY! Very well put - damned good analogy.

That's the epitome of an argument from ignorance (or personal incredulity) fallacy. The fact that you don't know why something is a certain way DOES NOT mean it's wrong (because, as it says, you don't know).

So many people fall for this logical fallacy. It's one of my favourites to point out.

So thank you for reminding me and bringing it up.

The fact that you don't know why something is a certain way DOES NOT mean it's wrong (because, as it says, you don't know).

Sometimes you must be humble and think that way, and its correct. Its good to be rational. But being rational also gives you the power to question things.

So in this case what you propose is that you cannot question anything you don´t fully comprehend and you are OK with almost everything in your life, because you don´t know everything. So if your neighbor plays electric guitar full volume at 3 am everyday, its OK for you, because hey... you don´t know his background, right? maybe the poor dude works all day and 3 am is the only time for him to do so. That would be your approuch.

My approuch would be to tell him to use headphones and condition his house to be soundproof if he insists on doing that at that time.

Keep thinking as you like, but it is not recommended to take things as they are simply because others say so.

You know, "millions of flies can´t be wrong."

[Walach]

Publicado originalmente por crunchyfrog:

EXACTLY! Very well put - damned good analogy.

That's the epitome of an argument from ignorance (or personal incredulity) fallacy. The fact that you don't know why something is a certain way DOES NOT mean it's wrong (because, as it says, you don't know).

So many people fall for this logical fallacy. It's one of my favourites to point out.

So thank you for reminding me and bringing it up.

To be honest, I first thought you were being sarcastic. :P
I'm somewhat bad with words. Like, should there be a "an" or a "a" before alpha in that sentence. Should there be a "an" before "an" with what I just wrote!? Ahem, anyways.

For me I don't really like to talk about stuff I have an interest in because, maybe, then I start trying to change the opinion of others. I still do it but I try to think "how does this person see the world". What if my opinion is the false one, and more important, does it matter?

Anyways, thank you. That is, if you weren't being sarcastic all this time! ;)

Publicado originalmente por Dradgit:

They probably said it that way because not a lot of people understand how games are made and tested and it might be tedious to explain to someone with no background or interest. Honestly even though I have the background I find it hard to hold interest for the distinction.

The formal difference is really that there are no "real users" in alpha testing, so they're just testing with the dev team in a controlled environment. Beta testing is where you get "real world" testing by finding out how "real users" will break your game. In reality though the most important thing is to find something wrong with the game (because there always is) so it can be fixed, so you end up with testing that doesn't necessarily follow a formal definition but still works.

In addition not every game's development is linear, so you end up with games that stay in "beta" for years like Rimworld, Subnautica, and Space Engineers. That's why so many people get it confused.

Well the answer I gave wasn't really the whole part. I just didn't want to type it all out because I'm both stupid AND lazy when it comes to trying to explain, erm, stuff.

I tried to speak to a lot of people from different companies and everyone from a designer to the CEO. What I got from it all, other than a few friends and to much alcohol, was that there wasn't really one standards on what is and what is not an alpha or beta. Most of the time it almost seemed like they didn't even like the terms as most just used the "build name" and when it came to give it a name it was mostly the first person to say something or write it down that got to name it.

But that's only from my experience and I can't really say I know mych about it. Still, I now know more and I thank you for your insight!

Publicado originalmente por El coso malo de la muerte:

Ok, I don´t know why it reminds you that, but you definitely got trolled there. Development stages determine the maturity of the development of a program (game in this case). Alpha is the rough idea of the program working, FULL of bugs sometimes it doesn´t even have an ending, more like a sketch. Beta is the program more mature, fewer bugs and good for testing for the final launch.

yeah, as I said to the person above there were a lot to take in. Some people said it was an alpha, others said it was an early build or something like build 03a. Others said they tried not to use alpha nor beta at all. Some even used words like "game concept" all into the end of production.

The thing I wanted to say was that there wasn't really one standard for those words. There might be one with a couple companies but not others. The terms ment so much from person to person, how much or how little they knew, wanted to talk about or use that in the end it felt like they just didn't care anymore and just let people use it however they wanted as it didn't matter to them what it was called, so long people understood what they were talking about. And it seemed to work to me, but that might just be me missing something.

Sorry I didn´t quite get it there. If you don´t use them... why are you here in the first place? why do you care if they exist or not?

Hm, I mostly care because other people seem to care. Just because I don't like something doesn't mean I don't want to help, if I can or atleast give another opinion. If that makes any sense? :P

That is why we need someone from the service provider (STEAM) to "guide" us into how to call things (games). And you are a little bit on my team there, I also think that Simcity is a strategy game not a simulator. The discrepancy here is that VR games are not always simulations. For example if the VR game is like "counter strike VR" its a VR FPS.

Sure, I don't see a problem with that. Or rather, I don't oppose it. Trying something is always a good thing to see if something works. But from what I read here people with probably a lot more knowledge than me seem to not want this and I tried to understand why. In the end it just felt like it was a "what I like vs what you like" sort of thing.

Mind you, I don't really mind the thing we have now. For me, personally, I would have some details changed but overall it's easier to change myself than other people and if I can't change other peoples mind then I have no chance to change anything. There is the saying "if it's stupid but it works, then it's not stupid". And to me it seem to work, might not be 100% but it works.

I enjoy so many different games that I can't really use the tags on Steam because they overlap with things I dislike and things I like way to much.

Lastly, one question I have to you:
If I enjoy horror games, how would I find those with your system? It felt to me that you didn't want genres as tags but I might have misunderstood it? In that case just ignore the question and say I misunderstood it!

[crunchyfrog]

Publicado originalmente por El coso malo de la muerte:

Publicado originalmente por crunchyfrog:

EXACTLY! Very well put - damned good analogy.

That's the epitome of an argument from ignorance (or personal incredulity) fallacy. The fact that you don't know why something is a certain way DOES NOT mean it's wrong (because, as it says, you don't know).

So many people fall for this logical fallacy. It's one of my favourites to point out.

So thank you for reminding me and bringing it up.

The fact that you don't know why something is a certain way DOES NOT mean it's wrong (because, as it says, you don't know).

Sometimes you must be humble and think that way, and its correct. Its good to be rational. But being rational also gives you the power to question things.

So in this case what you propose is that you cannot question anything you don´t fully comprehend and you are OK with almost everything in your life, because you don´t know everything. So if your neighbor plays electric guitar full volume at 3 am everyday, its OK for you, because hey... you don´t know his background, right? maybe the poor dude works all day and 3 am is the only time for him to do so. That would be your approuch.

My approuch would be to tell him to use headphones and condition his house to be soundproof if he insists on doing that at that time.

Keep thinking as you like, but it is not recommended to take things as they are simply because others say so.

You know, "millions of flies can´t be wrong."

Nope, that's not how critical thinking works.

I havent' said ANYTHING of the sort. Keep misrepreseting me and you're done too.

I have made it clear 5 TIMES NOW, that I'm saqying the tags work and here's how, folloowed by the explanation.

How dopes that equate to not questioning anything?

Yiou're either being extremely dense or disingenious.

So please demonstrate WHERE I've even begn to allude to don't question anything.

I'm sorry you don't understand how critical thinking works, but that's not my fault.

[_??_]

Publicado originalmente por Walach:

Publicado originalmente por crunchyfrog:

EXACTLY! Very well put - damned good analogy.

That's the epitome of an argument from ignorance (or personal incredulity) fallacy. The fact that you don't know why something is a certain way DOES NOT mean it's wrong (because, as it says, you don't know).

So many people fall for this logical fallacy. It's one of my favourites to point out.

So thank you for reminding me and bringing it up.

To be honest, I first thought you were being sarcastic. :P
I'm somewhat bad with words. Like, should there be a "an" or a "a" before alpha in that sentence. Should there be a "an" before "an" with what I just wrote!? Ahem, anyways.

For me I don't really like to talk about stuff I have an interest in because, maybe, then I start trying to change the opinion of others. I still do it but I try to think "how does this person see the world". What if my opinion is the false one, and more important, does it matter?

Anyways, thank you. That is, if you weren't being sarcastic all this time! ;)

Publicado originalmente por Dradgit:

They probably said it that way because not a lot of people understand how games are made and tested and it might be tedious to explain to someone with no background or interest. Honestly even though I have the background I find it hard to hold interest for the distinction.

The formal difference is really that there are no "real users" in alpha testing, so they're just testing with the dev team in a controlled environment. Beta testing is where you get "real world" testing by finding out how "real users" will break your game. In reality though the most important thing is to find something wrong with the game (because there always is) so it can be fixed, so you end up with testing that doesn't necessarily follow a formal definition but still works.

In addition not every game's development is linear, so you end up with games that stay in "beta" for years like Rimworld, Subnautica, and Space Engineers. That's why so many people get it confused.

Well the answer I gave wasn't really the whole part. I just didn't want to type it all out because I'm both stupid AND lazy when it comes to trying to explain, erm, stuff.

I tried to speak to a lot of people from different companies and everyone from a designer to the CEO. What I got from it all, other than a few friends and to much alcohol, was that there wasn't really one standards on what is and what is not an alpha or beta. Most of the time it almost seemed like they didn't even like the terms as most just used the "build name" and when it came to give it a name it was mostly the first person to say something or write it down that got to name it.

But that's only from my experience and I can't really say I know mych about it. Still, I now know more and I thank you for your insight!

Publicado originalmente por El coso malo de la muerte:

Ok, I don´t know why it reminds you that, but you definitely got trolled there. Development stages determine the maturity of the development of a program (game in this case). Alpha is the rough idea of the program working, FULL of bugs sometimes it doesn´t even have an ending, more like a sketch. Beta is the program more mature, fewer bugs and good for testing for the final launch.

yeah, as I said to the person above there were a lot to take in. Some people said it was an alpha, others said it was an early build or something like build 03a. Others said they tried not to use alpha nor beta at all. Some even used words like "game concept" all into the end of production.

The thing I wanted to say was that there wasn't really one standard for those words. There might be one with a couple companies but not others. The terms ment so much from person to person, how much or how little they knew, wanted to talk about or use that in the end it felt like they just didn't care anymore and just let people use it however they wanted as it didn't matter to them what it was called, so long people understood what they were talking about. And it seemed to work to me, but that might just be me missing something.

Sorry I didn´t quite get it there. If you don´t use them... why are you here in the first place? why do you care if they exist or not?

Hm, I mostly care because other people seem to care. Just because I don't like something doesn't mean I don't want to help, if I can or atleast give another opinion. If that makes any sense? :P

That is why we need someone from the service provider (STEAM) to "guide" us into how to call things (games). And you are a little bit on my team there, I also think that Simcity is a strategy game not a simulator. The discrepancy here is that VR games are not always simulations. For example if the VR game is like "counter strike VR" its a VR FPS.

Sure, I don't see a problem with that. Or rather, I don't oppose it. Trying something is always a good thing to see if something works. But from what I read here people with probably a lot more knowledge than me seem to not want this and I tried to understand why. In the end it just felt like it was a "what I like vs what you like" sort of thing.

Mind you, I don't really mind the thing we have now. For me, personally, I would have some details changed but overall it's easier to change myself than other people and if I can't change other peoples mind then I have no chance to change anything. There is the saying "if it's stupid but it works, then it's not stupid". And to me it seem to work, might not be 100% but it works.

I enjoy so many different games that I can't really use the tags on Steam because they overlap with things I dislike and things I like way to much.

Lastly, one question I have to you:
If I enjoy horror games, how would I find those with your system? It felt to me that you didn't want genres as tags but I might have misunderstood it? In that case just ignore the question and say I misunderstood it!

Ok no problem, you seem different from the others, you are not stupid in any way so cut that.(not being sacastic)

What "my system" let´s call it that way for now, proposes is to clean many useless tags and use the main mechanic of the game as its tag, but you can fit two tags if you need to.
For example, for resident evil games it could be "survival, horror".
What I would avoid is using something like "zombies" as a tag, because there are some "comic" games with zombies in them.

This "system" is open to any ideas it is not a system really... its just an idea.

[crunchyfrog]

Again, OP (I'm not quoting that wall of text) you misunderstand how tags works.

What don't you get that tags are meant to be as INCLUSIVE as possible to give you a REALLY wide result, then you refine it by ADDING MORE TAGS.

All this is is a failure of your imagination and the ability to think of more tags to refine your search. That's it.

Again , as I've already explained 5 times if it doesn't work, HOW DOES IT WORK FOR ME THEN?

[_??_]

Publicado originalmente por crunchyfrog:

Again, OP (I'm not quoting that wall of text) you misunderstand how tags works.

What don't you get that tags are meant to be as INCLUSIVE as possible to give you a REALLY wide result, then you refine it by ADDING MORE TAGS.

All this is is a failure of your imagination and the ability to think of more tags to refine your search. That's it.

Again , as I've already explained 5 times if it doesn't work, HOW DOES IT WORK FOR ME THEN?

I´m tired of arguing with you.
You repeat the same over and over and over....

Listen, what we don´t need are inclusive tags. We need to generalize, otherwise your good old strategy game becomes 30 genres in one game, because of your 28 useless tags.

What is the outcome of having 10.000 tags? they start appearing on games that should not.
Then you want to search for something similar to XXXX and find that you don´t know what genre is it anymore. Then you want to filter, and find yourself filtering the games you actually want to see because tags are mixing them all, thus making tags useless.

You overclassify, then you cannot mantain or use a catalog effectively. Simple as that. Everything is everything and you cannot discriminate something using tags because they cancel each other or are false.

Try it, if you have a music library try to search by genre if you have 12 types of rock tags then it will take more time to find that band you want, you will end up writing the band name in the search field. If you have 3 genre tags for rock, you will know what to expect on those 3.

You simply cannot catalog something if it is contantly having more and more names for the same thing. It makes it useless in the end.

[crunchyfrog]

Publicado originalmente por El coso malo de la muerte:

Publicado originalmente por crunchyfrog:

Again, OP (I'm not quoting that wall of text) you misunderstand how tags works.

What don't you get that tags are meant to be as INCLUSIVE as possible to give you a REALLY wide result, then you refine it by ADDING MORE TAGS.

All this is is a failure of your imagination and the ability to think of more tags to refine your search. That's it.

Again , as I've already explained 5 times if it doesn't work, HOW DOES IT WORK FOR ME THEN?

I´m tired of arguing with you.
You repeat the same over and over and over....

Listen, what we don´t need are inclusive tags. We need to generalize, otherwise your good old strategy game becomes 30 genres in one game, because of your 28 useless tags.

What is the outcome of having 10.000 tags? they start appearing on games that should not.
Then you want to search for something similar to XXXX and find that you don´t know what genre is it anymore. Then you want to filter, and find yourself filtering the games you actually want to see because tags are mixing them all, thus making tags useless.

You overclassify, then you cannot mantain or use a catalog effectively. Simple as that. Everything is everything and you cannot discriminate something using tags because they cancel each other or are false.

Try it, if you have a music library try to search by genre if you have 12 types of rock tags then it will take more time to find that band you want, you will end up writing the band name in the search field. If you have 3 genre tags for rock, you will know what to expect on those 3.

You simply cannot catalog something if it is contantly having more and more names for the same thing. It makes it useless in the end.

I repeat the same answer over and over because IT IS DEMONSTRABLY CORRECT.

Facts don't change if you keep asking them enough, That isn't how reality works.

And again, the only issue is YOU not using tags. Let me explain it for a 6th time.

You have the search tag "survival" to start with. It BY DESIGN WILL bring up a load of games, and that is how it SHOULD be, or it defeats the purpose going forward in searching. It is designed to have games only tenuously connected because you use MORE TAGS to whittle away.

So now I think " hmm, what can I refine it to further? - I know, crafting". So now, I have CRAFTING and SURVIVAL as tags, and the list is whittled more.

And so on, and at any point you can make notes to what results you get if you find anything interesting.

And this is the point. THIS IS NOT UNIQUE TO STEAM. IT IS HOW IT WORKS EVERYWHERE to some degree.

So again, the answer remains the same as sure as if you keep asking what colour is blue?


So, your poor logic is irrelevant, as is your strawmanning of me.

Facts are facts and they don't change just because you don't belive them. That's the beauty of them. SO now for a SIXTH time I've explained in detail how to get the results you desire, so WHY AREN'T YOU DOING THIS?

[_??_]

Publicado originalmente por crunchyfrog:

Publicado originalmente por El coso malo de la muerte:

I repeat the same answer over and over because IT IS DEMONSTRABLY CORRECT.

Facts don't change if you keep asking them enough, That isn't how reality works.

And again, the only issue is YOU not using tags. Let me explain it for a 6th time.

You have the search tag "survival" to start with. It BY DESIGN WILL bring up a load of games, and that is how it SHOULD be, or it defeats the purpose going forward in searching. It is designed to have games only tenuously connected because you use MORE TAGS to whittle away.

So now I think " hmm, what can I refine it to further? - I know, crafting". So now, I have CRAFTING and SURVIVAL as tags, and the list is whittled more.

And so on, and at any point you can make notes to what results you get if you find anything interesting.

And this is the point. THIS IS NOT UNIQUE TO STEAM. IT IS HOW IT WORKS EVERYWHERE to some degree.

So again, the answer remains the same as sure as if you keep asking what colour is blue?


So, your poor logic is irrelevant, as is your strawmanning of me.

Facts are facts and they don't change just because you don't belive them. That's the beauty of them. SO now for a SIXTH time I've explained in detail how to get the results you desire, so WHY AREN'T YOU DOING THIS?

I know how to use the filtering and the search. You don´t seem to understand.

1- So what you say is that I have to have the game in my mind before starting to search. I have to know exactly what tags I want in my game to search. I have to know that you call simcity a simulator instead of strategy to start.

2- That doesn´t fix the fact that Simulation tag is being overused. This and many others tags, cause crossover between games. And of course the recommendation algorithm that feeds on those works bad.

3- Redundant tags, some call it "base building" some "base" some "builders".

4- Porn games, you cannot filter "adult content" because who knows what games will be filtered. You have to take the time to filter, hentai, sexual content, nudity, etc

5- You have to take 15 minutes filtering and testing to see what you are filtering or not every time.

6- Over classification for no reason. Is it that difficult to tag with the main game mechanic + important description like "survival, horror"? you have to take every single aspect of the game into account? why? (and I´m the lazy??!)

6B- Sloppy classification, again, trolls, kids, everyone can tag, leading to redundancy and false tags.

7- Some time ago you searched for "strategy" you got: simcity, pharaoh, caesar, command & conquer, etc. Now you search "strategy" and you get: player unknown battlegrounds, arma 3, rainbow six siege....

8- Again and again and again: what if I hate simulation games so I remove that tag, but due to the crossover between tags and missuse, my STRATEGY games are being obliterated because they are being tagged as simulation.

8B- DON´T START THE "I call it simulator" thing, this happens a lot with a lot of different games. In fact you can call simulator to every single game out there in the store since video games simulate something at its most primitive existence.

9- INDIE tag. Again indie is NOT a description or a game mechanic. The store is being spamed by random - pixel art | flash like | made in mspaint - games

[Kartoffelsuppe]

Publicado originalmente por UnicumDeluxe:

Publicado originalmente por crunchyfrog:

I'm the troll. Right.

Ahh, you understand

And now maybe you want to learn something
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt-S9J947C8

these are gonna be pretty useless on their own because they are not dynamic
the problem is that sets change when you have user tags
or something like that I'm not a math person you figure it out

https://imgur.com/a/Q9SLtHo

I doubt Valve will ever be able to fix this because it runs only on user tags. People are not gonna go out of their way to add various tags to the 600 Tower Defense games to make the search outcome more precise.

Also you can already report tags...

About that indie tag, it seems people nowadays have a different understanding of what they perceive as indie. The main problem with a tag is that it does not have a single meaning obviously. Even something banal like Zombie is eventually gonna get distorted how you seen in countless horror movies or video games already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtbhWTbif-0

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Publicado originalmente por Kartoffelsuppe:

I doubt Valve will ever be able to fix this because it runs only on user tags. People are not gonna go out of their way to add various tags to the 600 Tower Defense games to make the search outcome more precise.

Thats the point of this thread, to rise a hand and tell them that things are wrong here. That is why I ask them to do their job of mantaining the tag database instead of the users. Users are simply not going to understand or follow any tagging rules.

Also you can already report tags...

As stated in a previous post, I know you can report tags, but I added it to the list because someone will say "hey why do you want to remove tag reporting?!"
Also I´m NOT gonna go around reporting every game out there with wrong tags as some kind of mantainer.

About that indie tag, it seems people nowadays have a different understanding of what they perceive as indie. The main problem with a tag is that it does not have a single meaning obviously. Even something banal like Zombie is eventually gonna get distorted how you seen in countless horror movies or video games already.

Exactly, that is why I´m asking steam to make the Tagging Rules. So everything gets clear.
However I don´t agree that tags are not meant have a single meaning. The problem starts when you don´t correct the error it gets massive and you have some kind of Mandela effect, people repeat just because they heard. Strategy genre tag is not meant to be used in a tactical FPS no matter if it has strategy elements in it.

That was one of the first things someone said here, "show me where are the rules to tag".
Anyway, Indie tag is nothing, think about it, indie is how the game was made or by who, nothing else. Its like tagging a game with "corporate" or "big company" :S


The conclusion of all this is that we need a leader always. I would love to say that people can do everything by themselves, take care of each other and all that, but saddly, we always need rules, and restrictions. People just don´t know what to do or how to do it.
If you give people total free will, nothing will work (again saddly) and this is good (and simple) example of it. That is why we need presidents, police and armies in the world. It´s sad but true.

The leader in this case is obviously STEAM because they are the owners of this service.

Of course, if something is wrong you have all the right to rise your hand and say so. That is what I´m doing.

regards

[Crazy Tiger]

It seems Steam is improving the search with tags. Not by changing the tags itself, but how the filter and search works. This info is provided in the blue little envelop icon in the Steam client.

Steam Labs Search Experiment 4.1: Query Expansion
22 APR @ 8:15PM - CHRISTEN
Now We're Thinking with Queries

In this experiment, Query Expansion, we improve Steam Search by treating tags more like a human would: using logic! Take the three tags RTS, Real-Time, and Strategy, for instance. If a game is tagged RTS but not Real-Time and Strategy, a search for Real-Time + Strategy won’t find that game using Steam's existing Search tech. Query Expansion fixes that.

You can experience our new Search Results - including those surfaced thanks to Query Expansion - when you visit Steam Labs Experiment 004.1: Search Query Expansion. Here, many searches which leverage tags will now cast a wider net and display more titles. As always, we’d love your feedback; You can let us know what you think of your new Search Results in the discussions.

Read on to learn about how Query Expansion gives better search results.

Improving Search Results with Query Expansion

The core of Query Expansion is that we don't just consider the tags on a game, but also the tags that these logically imply.

Let’s say you're hankering to play a 3D Platformer, so you select the 3D and Platformer tags in Steam Search. As a result, you see something like this:



However we also have a 3D Platformer tag. If you searched for that instead, you'd get more results, but this is also missing some items from your first search:



Now, when you opt into Steam Labs’ improved Search with Query Expansion you get all of these results, plus more, regardless which set of tags you use to perform the search. Here we can see that this set of results is broader than even the sum of the previous two methods':



In either of our initial cases, results were missed because the existing version of Search treats all tags as unrelated pieces of information. A human can of course discern that 3D Platformer is composed of the elements 3D and Platformer. Search ought to be smart enough to recognize this sort of relationship, too.

Search shouldn’t be too smart, however, because it’s not a recommender—it should return what the user asked for; no more, no less. But before we go too deeply into our solution, let’s get a better look at the problem.

Gaps in Tagging
Some games are tagged more thoroughly than others. We have some longer-term plans to help address that, and Query Expansion is a simple first step.

For example, games tagged RTS might not always have the tags Real-Time + Strategy, and vice versa. Likewise, a game tagged Action-Adventure + JRPG might lack the tags Action, Adventure, and RPG. Unfortunately this will return Search results that vary considerably based on which particular tags the user happens to choose. (See below for details.)

Developers who don’t know about this issue might, for example, tag their game RTS and not realize that it could fail to return in a search for the simpler tag Strategy. And who could fault them?

On the flip side, developers who do know about this issue might load their game up with every possible permutation of their chief tags—indicating RTS in addition to Real-Time + Strategy, RTS, and so on. The downside to this approach is that it fills the game’s tag profile with lots of redundant tags, when we instead need more meaningful tags which help describe or surface the game to users in the Steam store.

Query Expansion fills these gaps without requiring taggers to add synonymous tags to every game on Steam, or requiring players to form complex search queries.



How It Works
Let's look more directly at what Query Expansion does, and just as importantly, what it doesn’t do, so that we can become confident in the quality of the Search Results surfaced by these changes with respect to tags.

First and foremost, we intend for our Query Expansion to err toward being cautionary. For instance, we've told it that:

Action-Adventure strictly implies Action + Adventure and
Strategy RPG strictly implies Strategy + RPG

However we've not taken a leap to suggest synonymous relationships between merely similar or corollary tags. For example:

Dark does not imply Lovecraftian
Fantasy does not imply Magic
Shooter does not imply Action and
Strategy does not imply Turn-Based

Sure, Dark and Lovecraftian often appear together in association with the same games, but this correlation is not equivalence, and therefore these two tags aren't appropriate to associate with one another when implementing Query Expansion.

With that established, we went through our entire list of tags and mapped out relationships that everyone could agree made sense. This includes tags that break down into other tags (FPS → First Person + Shooter) as well as tags that are constructed from other tags (Strategy + RPG → Strategy RPG). Most of these relationships work in both directions, but not all of them.

For instance, a game tagged Looter Shooter clearly deserves the tags Loot and Shooter. However, Looter Shooter is a specific sub-genre with its own conventions. And although it’s not Steam’s place to define those conventions, it does seem prudent to recognize that not every game tagged with Loot and Shooter is necessarily a Looter Shooter. For now, relationships between tags like this require human consideration.

Expanding Tag Queries, Step by Step
Here’s a somewhat simplified example of what goes on under the hood.

Search queries start with the user’s list of tags:
Action +
Adventure +
2D Platformer +
Puzzle

We identify complex tags and break them down into simple tags:
2D Platformer → 2D + Platformer

We see if any simple tags combine to form complex tags:
Action + Adventure → Action Adventure
Puzzle + Platformer → Puzzle Platformer

We add these as synonyms for each of our original tags using OR:
(Action OR Action Adventure) +
(Adventure OR Action Adventure) +
(2D OR 2D Platformer) +
(Platformer OR 2D Platformer) +
(Puzzle OR Puzzle Platformer)

Next, for each tag, we look for complex tags that fully incorporate it:
Action → (Action Adventure OR Action RPG OR Action Roguelike)
Adventure → (Action Adventure)
2D → (2D Platformer OR 2D Fighter)
Platformer → (2D Platformer OR 3D Platformer OR Precision Platformer OR Puzzle Platformer)
Puzzle → (Puzzle Platformer)

We add these as synonyms for each of our original tags, using OR (provided we haven’t added them already in an earlier step:)
(Action OR Action Adventure OR Action RPG OR Action Roguelike) +
(Adventure OR Action Adventure) +
(2D OR 2D Platformer OR 2D Fighter) +
(Platformer OR 2D Platformer OR 3D Platformer OR Precision Platformer OR Puzzle Platformer) +
(Puzzle OR Puzzle Platformer)

Now some of you might be thinking, “Action RPG? 2D Fighter? I thought we were looking for Action+Adventure+2D+Platformer+Puzzle, what’s this other stuff doing in here? Surely this will pollute our Search Results!”

Good question! But don’t worry, those extra terms don’t ruin the results—quite the opposite. The OR logic makes sure the fancier tags are only there to contribute the bit that overlaps with the user’s request—the Action in Action RPG in this example. And keep in mind there are tons of genre hybrids on Steam; so the fancier terms ensure that when you ask for peanut-butter flavored snacks, we don’t forget to include peanut-butter-and-chocolate cookies (but rest assured, we won’t return any chocolate snacks that don’t also have peanut-butter).

This approach allows us to locate more titles than were served by even the sum of results when searching for 3D, Platformer, and 3D Platformer, as in our first example. Now, additional results such as Biped, are served front and center. This title has the tags 3D and Puzzle Platformer associated with it. So you see, now searches for complex tags like 3D Platformer catch titles with alternate though still relevant combinations of tags.

Applications
Query Expansion isn’t the final word in improving our tags system, but it’s a good place to start. For now we’re just leveraging Query Expansion as applied to tags in this Search experiment. We’ll be closely monitoring the results before we decide whether and how to use Query Expansion in other applications such as across more forms of metadata in Search, or in additional Browse views, Recommendations algorithms, Dynamic Collections in the Library, and other areas of Steam.

Try Searching with Expanded Queries Today
You’ll need to opt in to the Steam Labs Search experiment to see the new Search results leveraging Expanded Queries as applied to tags. You can do this by visiting Steam Labs Experiment 4.1: Search with Expanded Tags.

Steam Labs
Today's changes to Search were made as part of Steam Labs, an experimental environment where we try out potential changes and additions to Steam, and gather feedback on their usefulness.

By developing new features in Labs we're able to experiment without impacting everyone who uses and sells games on Steam. At the same time, we can try things out publicly and receive feedback early in the development process. If you would like to help us further design and refine Search or other Steam features, head over to Steam Labs and try out the experiments that catch your interest. We look forward to your feedback!

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Publicado originalmente por Crazy Tiger:

It seems Steam is improving the search with tags. Not by changing the tags itself, but how the filter and search works. This info is provided in the blue little envelop icon in the Steam client.

Thanks for the info Tiger, but I think that they are making it worse with wider results and games being badly tagged, they are going the opposite direction.

They want to show you more results, they don´t really care how good is the search engine.
It seems that they know statistically that if they shove more games into the users face, they buy.


I have this feeling fighting inside that on one side, it´s their job to sell more, but on the other side this is like cheating... I don´t know.. and now they present this as a "new cool feature" :(

[Marius]

Perhaps it's a good chance for VALVe to remove the tags and let studio's put the correct tags. Meanwhile that's gonna work with the new Tag-search function.

[Crazy Tiger]

Publicado originalmente por Marius:

Perhaps it's a good chance for VALVe to remove the tags and let studio's put the correct tags. Meanwhile that's gonna work with the new Tag-search function.

In the past Valve let the developers put the tags in. Then gamers complained that game developers didn't put correct tags in, put too broad tags in and that searchability was crap.

As one of the mods already said in this thread. In the end it doesn't matter which way Valve goes, there will always be people who complain.