Heavily RNG Games

[Richard Jokes]

I've wanted to discuss this for a very long time and I know that I can't be the only one that feels this way. I've played video games for the last 20 years and I can say as time has gone on, games as a whole are much, much better than they used to be with a few exceptions. One of those is RNG games.

When I say RNG games, I'm not talking about the randomized enemies you get in Fallout 4 or something as simple as what Slimes spawn in Slime Rancher. I'm talking purely about games that REQUIRE you to pray to RNGesus that you get the right loot / conditions in order to actually successfully play a game.

It has always made me go over the edge when I find a game that has great potential and it gets spoiled by the fact that you really have zero control over anything in the game. What makes most games so beautiful is that they allow players to do what they want to do and press out go to boundaries to make the game fun for them.

I feel like these games are becoming more and more prevalent. Honestly, whenever I see a review now that even remotely talks about "RNG based gameplay" I immediately skip it. Sorry for the rant.

[sfnhltb]

I doubt there are really any games where the RNG is such that you have zero control over anything in the game.

The beauty of RNG heavy games for me is they make you try to plan to mitigate the effects of potential bad rolls, or try to find way to fix things that have gone wrong unexpectedly.

Typically a game without much RNG influence in how the game plays out you play it through once, maybe one day you play it through again knowing it a bit better and optimizing your route/strategy and doing a bit better, then however good it is, it is unlikely you will play it again.

A game like say FTL or SotS:TP where what challenges you face, what weapons you may have, or even what crew you can use varies from game to game, meaning you can play them dozens or even hundreds of times - losing possibly unavoidably some times, winning easily others, but facing novel challenges for many, many different playthroughs.

[Richard Jokes]

FTL nailed it if you ask me. Then again, rogue likes in general pretty much thrive on RNG for drops / conditions.

[Taffer]

Based on what I heard about it, hearthstone is almost 100% RNG.

[Start_Running]

Originally posted by sfnhltb:

I doubt there are really any games where the RNG is such that you have zero control over anything in the game.

There are such games. CCG games and also games like Oh Sir!. You will live and die by the random luck of the draw.

The beauty of RNG heavy games for me is they make you try to plan to mitigate the effects of potential bad rolls, or try to find way to fix things that have gone wrong unexpectedly.

On the one hand but on the other they can punish you for things and in ways that you have no control over. Rogue-like games create this sort of problem where your chances of success or failure are determined less by your choices and more on random chance. In short The more a game emplys the RNG the less things like adaptation and strategy matter.

RNG creates chaos and thus undermines the understanding of cause and effect that strategy and planning require.

Typically a game without much RNG influence in how the game plays out you play it through once, maybe one day you play it through again knowing it a bit better and optimizing your route/strategy and doing a bit better, then however good it is, it is unlikely you will play it again.

Fighting games aren't RNG based and they offer hours of fun Same for platformers and bullet hell games RTS games as well. TBS Strategy games too. Certainly in shooters.

A game like say FTL or SotS:TP where what challenges you face, what weapons you may have, or even what crew you can use varies from game to game, meaning you can play them dozens or even hundreds of times - losing possibly unavoidably some times, winning easily others, but facing novel challenges for many, many different playthroughs.

True but take FTL. There will be playthroughs you simply can't win or have a chance of winning because resources are just too scarce.

Rogue Legace is a bit differen.t sinc.e the RNG ju.st. makes things harder or easier but does not determine success. FTL by contrast , their events basically have RNg built in. when you can make the same input and get two often opposing results. Then the choice itself becomes meaningless.

Se this is the balancing point. The more central RNG is to your game, the more your game becomes a slot machine where the player's inpuut and engagement is ssimply reduced to pulling the lever.

[sfnhltb]

Originally posted by Start_Running:

Se this is the balancing point. The more central RNG is to your game, the more your game becomes a slot machine where the player's inpuut and engagement is ssimply reduced to pulling the lever.

No doubt, for example I game I would consider goes too far is Chainsaw Warrior (of course it is being faithful to the original source in doing so) - it is still playable, but it feels too much like you are a passanger watching the game take place because there are so few meaningful decisions to make (taking it even further if you play by the truly original rules your equipment is even random selected rather than you picking it, so you have even less input if playing that way).

Originally posted by Start_Running:

Rogue Legace is a bit differen.t sinc.e the RNG ju.st. makes things harder or easier but does not determine success. FTL by contrast , their events basically have RNg built in. when you can make the same input and get two often opposing results. Then the choice itself becomes meaningless..

Except that isn't the decision you are making - your actual decision in such events is "should I ignore them and have nothing at risk, but gain nothing, or should I risk losing a crew member for a chance to gain some scrap/items" or "should I risk damage to the ship and being attacked and take this crew member on offer, or ignore them and take no risk". These choices aren't meaningless, but will depend on the game situation - if you are short on crew and have plentiful scrap, you probably shouldn't do the ones that put your crew at risk, and vice versa.

I think one general rule (there are only one or two exceptions I can think of) - the more RNG dependant your game is, the shorter playthroughs generally should be. This way generally the bad runs where you get a string of bad luck get put into the context of lots of other playthroughs where things go more normally.

[Start_Running]

Except there's no way of knowing you will lose a crew until after you do it. and I've yet to have a play through where i was comfortably well off on scrap. Eventually you need those events so you have scrap to spend on fuel.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

I wonder how you'd react to 100% Orange Juice. It's a game where the RNG is a centerpiece, but where the depth of strategy has to do with not wresting control from the RNG (which you can never really do except in a few rare instances) but making decisions that favor you and let you "roll with" the RNG, by understanding what outcomes are more preferable to you and then picking choices that are more likely to result in those outcomes. Because the game heavily features RNG but also heavily features choices that influence the outcomes of the RNG.

For example, if someone rolls a high number to attack you, you can choose whether to defend, which may give you a higher chance of survival, or evade, which gives you a lower chance of survival but if you do survive can let you escape unscathed. And if you do survive with less health, you may have to worry about someone else challenging you afterwards when you have less health, and a strategy may involve deciding whether to get KO'd by one vs. another opponent, depending on who's ahead, though there's also a chance (depending on the numbers) that you might even survive both. And if you get KO'd you also get a full heal when you revive, and a possible chance to go back and and reclaim the stars you lost to someone when they KO'd you, by KOing them in return.

Basically it's a game about managing uncertainty. The strategy itself revolves around it.