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Why do the woke believe media needs to be realistic?
Half of it's not even based on real events. You just want it to be realistic to make things not sexist/racist. It's the decision of the artists and developers/studios what they want to do. Society as a whole should have no impact.
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Grug 11 abr. 2024 às 5:18 
Originalmente postado por Sek-Raktaa:
Originalmente postado por Minikin Cayuse:

Funny that you should say that, because I imagine that's more or less what is happening in some cases. The publishers or investors pushing for wokeness because of ESG and business reasons. I have seen some mentions of this here and there, but I haven't really delved into it so I can't tell you much more. Indie devs are more or less exempt from this.

So what you are saying is that Devs are pushing for "wokeness" because it leads to more sales which means the Dev is making more money...

I mean, fair enough but that sounds like simple basic free market capitalism to me.

Devs make the games they want to make and the Consumer is voting with their wallet.

>Implies ESG bucks leads to more sales

is it free market capitalism? yeah, sure

Are the devs making the games they want? No
Tito Shivan 11 abr. 2024 às 5:19 
Originalmente postado por wesnef:
"Omg, more realistic!" has been a thing for some people for decades.
The gaming industry outgrew the 'young heterosexual teenager male' demographic decades ago. No wonder the industry has moved away from the 'male-power-fantasy/Sexy-bimbo-character' tropes into more mature and mainstream themes and representation of stuff.

Originalmente postado por Sek-Raktaa:
Devs make the games they want to make and the Consumer is voting with their wallet.
Which begs the question: 'What is the problem then?'
Originalmente postado por Grug:
Are the devs making the games they want? No
[Citation needed]
Última alteração por Tito Shivan; 11 abr. 2024 às 5:20
Haruspex 11 abr. 2024 às 5:20 
Originalmente postado por Sek-Raktaa:
Originalmente postado por Minikin Cayuse:

Funny that you should say that, because I imagine that's more or less what is happening in some cases. The publishers or investors pushing for wokeness because of ESG and business reasons. I have seen some mentions of this here and there, but I haven't really delved into it so I can't tell you much more. Indie devs are more or less exempt from this.

So what you are saying is that Devs are pushing for "wokeness" because it leads to more sales which means the Dev is making more money...

I mean, fair enough but that sounds like simple basic free market capitalism to me.

Devs make the games they want to make and the Consumer is voting with their wallet.

Those pushing for this stuff know it's unpopular with the usual audience. They're shoving it into established franchises under the assumption that the usual audience will buy it anyway, while simultaneously hoping to attract that "modern audience" they're always talking about.

The problem is, this might work once with the usual audience, but from that point on your usual audience will be extremely wary of falling for it again. Once bitten twice shy and all that. Also the mythical "modern audience" don't seem to be as interested in buying video games as these devs had hoped.

There's also the matter of ESG funding. Investment capital linked to a score that ranks a company on environmental and social issues. This created artificial demand for companies to demonstrate their progressive values, particularly on things like diversity and social justice. ESG scoring for investment has proven unpopular though, and investors seem to have walked away from it. I think it's unlikely to have much of an effect on things going forward, and already the industry is readjusting. All these layoffs the industry has been seeing are disproportionately affecting those hired for "diversity" reasons, rather than merit.
Dom 11 abr. 2024 às 5:22 
I really like the "free market capitalists" literally complaining about all the products and services that the free market capitalism generates. You eat what you cook, don't you think?

Now the "free market capitalists" are pushing for heavy social media regulations and banning mobile applications.

This WILL backfire.
Not that these "free market capitalists" are even capitalists to begin with.
Originalmente postado por Minikin Cayuse:
Originalmente postado por Sek-Raktaa:
Usually, devs don't have a woke person pointing a gun at their head standing behind them the whole time during the development of a game so... yeah, how is this whole "the woke demand representation" thing supposed to be working?

Funny that you should say that, because I imagine that's more or less what is happening in some cases. The publishers or investors pushing for wokeness because of ESG and business reasons. I have seen some mentions of this here and there, but I haven't really delved into it so I can't tell you much more. Indie devs are more or less exempt from this.
They use media pressure. Just raise a stink on social media or with their buddies writing for some media outlet. It doesn't even matter if it backfires terribly, if it's delved in controversy, companies are less willing to invest either way.
Sek-Raktaa 11 abr. 2024 às 5:29 
Originalmente postado por Minikin Cayuse:
Originalmente postado por Sek-Raktaa:

So what you are saying is that Devs are pushing for "wokeness" because it leads to more sales which means the Dev is making more money...

I mean, fair enough but that sounds like simple basic free market capitalism to me.

Devs make the games they want to make and the Consumer is voting with their wallet.

If it was like that, then ESG scores would have no right to exist. That is a completely artificial way to push wokeness, separate from how well it will sell. Although I'm sure multiple mechanisms are in place to ensure that it does.

Multiple mechanisms are in place to ensure something sells well? Like what? Devs buying their own games or something?

Sounds like a tinfoil hat conspiracy if I ever heard one...

Do you even really know what ESG scores really are, what they do and how they function?

'Cause I don't and its not really something I care to much about.

When I look at a video game, any video game, there is only one question that really matters:

"Is this fun to play?"

The answer to that question is the only real question that matters when it comes to video games. Period.

Suicide Squad Kill the Justice has been labelled as "woke"
Baldur's Gate 3 has been labelled as "woke"

Suicide Squad failed, Baldur's Gate 3 succeeded.

Why is that?

Baldur's Gate 3 is fun to play

Suicide Squad is boring and not fun to play

It's as simple as that.
Mega Ultra Chicken 11 abr. 2024 às 5:30 
Originalmente postado por Tito Shivan:
Originalmente postado por wesnef:
"Omg, more realistic!" has been a thing for some people for decades.
The gaming industry outgrew the 'young heterosexual teenager male' demographic decades ago. No wonder the industry has moved away from the 'male-power-fantasy/Sexy-bimbo-character' tropes into more mature and mainstream themes and representation of stuff.

Originalmente postado por Sek-Raktaa:
Devs make the games they want to make and the Consumer is voting with their wallet.
Which begs the question: 'What is the problem then?'
Originalmente postado por Grug:
Are the devs making the games they want? No
[Citation needed]
When a product is too woke, customers also vote with their wallets. I think Disney would be doing better as a company if they weren't trying to push woke on everything.
Sek-Raktaa 11 abr. 2024 às 5:37 
Originalmente postado por I'm too Hot:
Originalmente postado por Tito Shivan:
The gaming industry outgrew the 'young heterosexual teenager male' demographic decades ago. No wonder the industry has moved away from the 'male-power-fantasy/Sexy-bimbo-character' tropes into more mature and mainstream themes and representation of stuff.


Which begs the question: 'What is the problem then?'

[Citation needed]
When a product is too woke, customers also vote with their wallets. I think Disney would be doing better as a company if they weren't trying to push woke on everything.

One could certainly make the argument that Disney might do better if they weren't trying to push for woke, although that is largely a speculative argument.

The fact is that Disney continues to make money.

Say what you will about the company but one thing is for sure: They aren't hurting for money.
Mega Ultra Chicken 11 abr. 2024 às 5:39 
Originalmente postado por Sek-Raktaa:
Originalmente postado por I'm too Hot:
When a product is too woke, customers also vote with their wallets. I think Disney would be doing better as a company if they weren't trying to push woke on everything.

One could certainly make the argument that Disney might do better if they weren't trying to push for woke, although that is largely a speculative argument.

The fact is that Disney continues to make money.

Say what you will about the company but one thing is for sure: They aren't hurting for money.
Yes, they are. 3 box office failures in one year. They just make a ton of money from Disneyland and have a lot of money saved.
76561199586159139 11 abr. 2024 às 5:40 
Originalmente postado por Sek-Raktaa:
Originalmente postado por Minikin Cayuse:

If it was like that, then ESG scores would have no right to exist. That is a completely artificial way to push wokeness, separate from how well it will sell. Although I'm sure multiple mechanisms are in place to ensure that it does.

Multiple mechanisms are in place to ensure something sells well? Like what? Devs buying their own games or something?

Sounds like a tinfoil hat conspiracy if I ever heard one...

Do you even really know what ESG scores really are, what they do and how they function?

'Cause I don't and its not really something I care to much about.

When I look at a video game, any video game, there is only one question that really matters:

"Is this fun to play?"

The answer to that question is the only real question that matters when it comes to video games. Period.

Suicide Squad Kill the Justice has been labelled as "woke"
Baldur's Gate 3 has been labelled as "woke"

Suicide Squad failed, Baldur's Gate 3 succeeded.

Why is that?

Baldur's Gate 3 is fun to play

Suicide Squad is boring and not fun to play

It's as simple as that.

I just knew you were going to call me a crazy conspiracy theorist at some point. You could just have done that from the start though, all of "woke" is a conspiracy theory, is it not? Doesn't mean that it isn't true though.

People at large are extremely sheepish and it is quite easy to control them through media and all kinds of marketing efforts. Why do you think "influencers" are even a thing? If you imagine that people are actually individuals in all ways and make their own decisions, I would say that is quite naive.
Grug 11 abr. 2024 às 5:45 
Originalmente postado por Dom:
I really like the "free market capitalists" literally complaining about all the products and services that the free market capitalism generates. You eat what you cook, don't you think?

Except we're not cooking it. We're being served slop and saying it tastes bad.

do you have a problem with people voicing their opinion about the taste? Or will you just try and label anyone that doesn't like the taste a sexist, racist bigot?

this discussion isn't really a "muh free markets" debate anyway. you're just trying some lame gotcha. "hur dur well it's the consrvatives that don't like all this woke stuff, but they love free markets".

It's also hardly "free market capitalism" when you have multi billion dollar conglomerates pushing and influencing this totally natural change. It's not being pushed down from the top at all, bro. nope.
Dom 11 abr. 2024 às 5:51 
Originalmente postado por Grug:
Originalmente postado por Dom:
I really like the "free market capitalists" literally complaining about all the products and services that the free market capitalism generates. You eat what you cook, don't you think?

Except we're not cooking it. We're being served slop and saying it tastes bad.

do you have a problem with people voicing their opinion about the taste? Or will you just try and label anyone that doesn't like the taste a sexist, racist bigot?

this discussion isn't really a "muh free markets" debate anyway. you're just trying some lame gotcha. "hur dur well it's the consrvatives that don't like all this woke stuff, but they love free markets".

It's also hardly "free market capitalism" when you have multi billion dollar conglomerates pushing and influencing this totally natural change. It's not being pushed down from the top at all, bro. nope.
But free market capitalism is all about top-down.
Those who have gathered the wealth have the say. That's the basic principle of it.

On principle, conservatives are very much in favor of the "woke" stuff since their top-down mechanism is ultimately what allows that to happen in the first place.

If any Democrat says that the capitalist systems and market mechanisms should be more focused on being built bottom-up (rather than top-down), any such idea gets instantly trashed by the conservatives.
Última alteração por Dom; 11 abr. 2024 às 5:52
Sek-Raktaa 11 abr. 2024 às 5:59 
Originalmente postado por Minikin Cayuse:
Originalmente postado por Sek-Raktaa:

Multiple mechanisms are in place to ensure something sells well? Like what? Devs buying their own games or something?

Sounds like a tinfoil hat conspiracy if I ever heard one...

Do you even really know what ESG scores really are, what they do and how they function?

'Cause I don't and its not really something I care to much about.

When I look at a video game, any video game, there is only one question that really matters:

"Is this fun to play?"

The answer to that question is the only real question that matters when it comes to video games. Period.

Suicide Squad Kill the Justice has been labelled as "woke"
Baldur's Gate 3 has been labelled as "woke"

Suicide Squad failed, Baldur's Gate 3 succeeded.

Why is that?

Baldur's Gate 3 is fun to play

Suicide Squad is boring and not fun to play

It's as simple as that.

I just knew you were going to call me a crazy conspiracy theorist at some point. You could just have done that from the start though, all of "woke" is a conspiracy theory, is it not? Doesn't mean that it isn't true though.

People at large are extremely sheepish and it is quite easy to control them through media and all kinds of marketing efforts. Why do you think "influencers" are even a thing? If you imagine that people are actually individuals in all ways and make their own decisions, I would say that is quite naive.

You fully admitted yourself in an earlier post in this thread that you don't fully understand what ESG is, what it does and how it works.

Yet, you go on talking about something you barely understand like its this super big thing and solely responsible for all the evils in the world and the gaming industry.

You even double down by making some very vague claims that there are some kind of mechanisms in place to artificially secure a game's success somehow, which you can't explain either when you're being asked about it.

Moving on.

As stated before, the most important question to me when it comes to video games is "Is this fun to play?"

All other questions are secondary at best.

Subsequently that is how most gamers seem to operate as well.

I don't really care about stuff like ESG scores or whatever because that's not the thing I spend several hours doing when I play a video game, you know?

I mean, check my profile... I clocked in 1600+ hours into Elden Ring.

What's more likely?

That I clocked in those 1600+ hours because I like playing Elden Ring or that I clocked in those 1600+ hours because of ESG scores?
Tito Shivan 11 abr. 2024 às 6:00 
Originalmente postado por Haruspex:
Those pushing for this stuff know it's unpopular with the usual audience.
Mind the fact the 'usual audience' may no longer be the 'intended' one.

Originalmente postado por I'm too Hot:
When a product is too woke, customers also vote with their wallets.
Then it's a self-solved issue and nothing to worry about.
Originalmente postado por Tito Shivan:
Originalmente postado por I'm too Hot:
When a product is too woke, customers also vote with their wallets.
Then it's a self-solved issue and nothing to worry about.
Having the flu is a self solved issue that's nothing to worry about, but it's still unpleasant and annoying AF.

Edit: Thanks for also confirming that Steam moderation is not neutral and trying to push the woke agenda.
Última alteração por Abaddon the Despoiler; 11 abr. 2024 às 6:08
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Todas as discussões > Fóruns Steam > Off Topic > Detalhes do tópico
Postado a: 11 abr. 2024 às 2:53
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