Any benefits of communism?

[Spiderman]

Can you think if any? List a number of them

[alyssa-black]

crunchyfrog eredeti hozzászólása:

I'm sorry you suffered that as any system can be bad of course, but the point is that socialism works. Again, Finaldn regularly tops the world in societal wealth and health, education and a load of other things BECAUSE of that.

Here in Britain our NHS is pretty damned good. Our current government are a mess though and they've tried to dismantle it but despite the issues, it's still going strong.

Let me detail how my last visit to A&E went.

Being disabled I get kidney issues from time to time plus a few other bits and pieces. During some severe kidney pain I called the ambulance in the middle of the night and they turned up within half an hour. Administered some pain killing which didn't work enough and they took me to hospital.

Arrived around 3.15am. They left me with gas and air and I sit there, feeling OK as I wasn't hurting much. By about 6am, I'd been seen, gone for an MRI scan, and waited to be sent to a ward. Around 9am I went up and immediately was thrust a menu for something to eat. I ordered something but sadly it made me sick due to the issues. Plus they'd now given me morphine, so it was to be expected.

I spent just over two days in there, and there was some fragments of kidney stones that I passed that were causing the issues. Once they were gone, and they'd confirmed this with more scans, this was around 6pm on a Friday. They give me some tablets, call me a taxi, and I'm on my way.

Total cost, inlcuding the food and taxis? ZERO.


Now you can have bad experiences but what I'm getting at is that they do exist and they do work really bloody well - the evidence demonstrates this.

You are simply wrong about socialism. You may have had bad exmaples of it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work, because it does and it's bloody good for society as the evidence shows.

That's a great experience - something no one I know has ever went through until I came to the Sates. Also, I'm glad you're well now!

In my personal opinion, as far as healthcare goes, I think a mix of universal and private works best. At least when they finally introduced private clinics in the country-that-shall-not-be-named , like Voldemort, it took a load off free overstuffed hospitals for those who are broke and allowed people who can afford to pay for care not to wait months at a time. It's been a net positive overall.

Again, the examples you are describing are smaller countries with a high education level/decent upward mobility and overall better quality of life. Can it work there? Sure! and I'm glad you're enjoying what you have - means your vote mattered to some extent, at least.

I'm fed up with socialism for 10 lifetimes. Never will I ever. There is nothing even remotely attractive about it - I'll take free market capitalism with all its faults any day.

I know where I ended up being born in socialist country in what was supposed to be "middle class" (or just like everyone else - like the system wants). Clue - total poverty and no jobs, ♥♥♥♥♥♥ healthcare and other horror stories, like where I had to pay for my grades in college, even though I had an equivalent of 4.0 GPA my whole life (they simply said - pay or you won't pass, and trust me, I know how unbelievable that sounds - I see people nodding but not believing me when I mention stuff like that - i'm used to it) and many more.

I know where I got in America where I started from homeless on the beach with $300 in my pocket. It's been extremely difficult grind, hard work, long hours, no returns, no days off for as many as 60 days in a row, usually 2 jobs at a time... but I'm now better off than at least 3 previous generations of my family, I fully support my parents by myself, I supported my grandparents until they died, and most importantly - I will never look back and think "what if", because I'm doing the work I love). Here, in the States - you'll get what you'll put into it. I'm my own proof.

Most of the people back home that went to school with me, though, ended up on the jobs where their parents work - because those were the only positions available and they were grandfathered in. Only a few were able to venture out on their own. It's quite said because that's a cycle out of which is really hard to break out of.

I don't think I'm "wrong" about socialism. I'm simply saying it's a system that I will never embrace, I've been through it. With that being said, it's not like I want to come to Finland and tell them they should live according to my values - if people love what they got, more power to them. And if they don't - then they will vote differently next time.

This isn't a right or wrong kinda thing - there's a reason many different places make different styles of economies work for them.

[crunchyfrog]

alyssa-black eredeti hozzászólása:

crunchyfrog eredeti hozzászólása:

I'm sorry you suffered that as any system can be bad of course, but the point is that socialism works. Again, Finaldn regularly tops the world in societal wealth and health, education and a load of other things BECAUSE of that.

Here in Britain our NHS is pretty damned good. Our current government are a mess though and they've tried to dismantle it but despite the issues, it's still going strong.

Let me detail how my last visit to A&E went.

Being disabled I get kidney issues from time to time plus a few other bits and pieces. During some severe kidney pain I called the ambulance in the middle of the night and they turned up within half an hour. Administered some pain killing which didn't work enough and they took me to hospital.

Arrived around 3.15am. They left me with gas and air and I sit there, feeling OK as I wasn't hurting much. By about 6am, I'd been seen, gone for an MRI scan, and waited to be sent to a ward. Around 9am I went up and immediately was thrust a menu for something to eat. I ordered something but sadly it made me sick due to the issues. Plus they'd now given me morphine, so it was to be expected.

I spent just over two days in there, and there was some fragments of kidney stones that I passed that were causing the issues. Once they were gone, and they'd confirmed this with more scans, this was around 6pm on a Friday. They give me some tablets, call me a taxi, and I'm on my way.

Total cost, inlcuding the food and taxis? ZERO.


Now you can have bad experiences but what I'm getting at is that they do exist and they do work really bloody well - the evidence demonstrates this.

You are simply wrong about socialism. You may have had bad exmaples of it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work, because it does and it's bloody good for society as the evidence shows.

That's a great experience - something no one I know has ever went through until I came to the Sates. Also, I'm glad you're well now!

In my personal opinion, as far as healthcare goes, I think a mix of universal and private works best. At least when they finally introduced private clinics in the country-that-shall-not-be-named , like Voldemort, it took a load off free overstuffed hospitals for those who are broke and allowed people who can afford to pay for care not to wait months at a time. It's been a net positive overall.

Again, the examples you are describing are smaller countries with a high education level/decent upward mobility and overall better quality of life. Can it work there? Sure! and I'm glad you're enjoying what you have - means your vote mattered to some extent, at least.

I'm fed up with socialism for 10 lifetimes. Never will I ever. There is nothing even remotely attractive about it - I'll take free market capitalism with all its faults any day.

I know where I ended up being born in socialist country in what was supposed to be "middle class" (or just like everyone else - like the system wants). Clue - total poverty and no jobs, ♥♥♥♥♥♥ healthcare and other horror stories, like where I had to pay for my grades in college, even though I had an equivalent of 4.0 GPA my whole life (they simply said - pay or you won't pass, and trust me, I know how unbelievable that sounds - I see people nodding but not believing me when I mention stuff like that - i'm used to it) and many more.

I know where I got in America where I started from homeless on the beach with $300 in my pocket. It's been extremely difficult grind, hard work, long hours, no returns, no days off for as many as 60 days in a row, usually 2 jobs at a time... but I'm now better off than at least 3 previous generations of my family, I fully support my parents by myself, I supported my grandparents until they died, and most importantly - I will never look back and think "what if", because I'm doing the work I love). Here, in the States - you'll get what you'll put into it. I'm my own proof.

Most of the people back home that went to school with me, though, ended up on the jobs where their parents work - because those were the only positions available and they were grandfathered in. Only a few were able to venture out on their own. It's quite said because that's a cycle out of which is really hard to break out of.

I don't think I'm "wrong" about socialism. I'm simply saying it's a system that I will never embrace, I've been through it. With that being said, it's not like I want to come to Finland and tell them they should live according to my values - if people love what they got, more power to them. And if they don't - then they will vote differently next time.

This isn't a right or wrong kinda thing - there's a reason many different places make different styles of economies work for them.

Not quite.

They're not small countries. As I said Finaldn , scandinavia, most of Europe alone are not small countries. As if that's really that relevant anyway.

Sure, a mix of paid at source and socialised can work, but I'm talking not about opinion but EVIDENCE. And the fact remains that the data shows that it works the best. Finaldn again has such a great record of continually topping the world for a reason.

Now again you may have had a bad experience with socialism but that's likely because you had a bad government. It does not extend to socialism beign bad any more than buying a computer that was awful with flaws means all computers are therefore bad.

[Professor]

crunchyfrog eredeti hozzászólása:

Professor eredeti hozzászólása:

Other than what they print, Governments dont have money of their own. The saying is that they use other peoples money. Where do our taxes go? Sure it is not really fairly distributed but it does count for economic or social diversity

No., because if that were the case the people would be creating the money. They aren't.

The government's central bank create the money. So you're wrong.

That's why when there's issues like cost of living going off, they will print more money.

Governments PRINT money that is not necessarily obtained through free market forces. However they act as corporations anyway & impose taxes, fess & charges in accordance to what they need.

I am not saying that Governments dont generate a profit at all, as we seem to be confusing income & profit. Consider that privateers, income earners pay the taxes that Governments need to operate in a profitable way

Governments printing money is inflationary & as history has shown us it does lead to a manipulation of free market forces.

[alyssa-black]

crunchyfrog eredeti hozzászólása:

Not quite.

They're not small countries. As I said Finaldn , scandinavia, most of Europe alone are not small countries. As if that's really that relevant anyway.

Sure, a mix of paid at source and socialised can work, but I'm talking not about opinion but EVIDENCE. And the fact remains that the data shows that it works the best. Finaldn again has such a great record of continually topping the world for a reason.

Now again you may have had a bad experience with socialism but that's likely because you had a bad government. It does not extend to socialism beign bad any more than buying a computer that was awful with flaws means all computers are therefore bad.

Of course they are small countries. India, China, Russia, Brazil, Mexico... Those are large countries. And, yes, of course it matters - try to sell a crock of ♥♥♥♥ like socialism to hundreds of millions of people - and I'm pretty sure you'll have a harder time doing it. Again, you're ignoring the fact that the countries you're mentioning are first world countries. People won't be too happy with extremely high taxes when majority of the population is dead broke.
Although, taxation is theft anyway. The greatest nation in the world was born cause ya'll charged too much for tea and stamps :)

And when it comes to evidence, there is none that works for a large country. If socialism and/or communism was so great, I'm sure some of the bigger countries (or why not all of them - if it's so great for the society) tried to embrace it too and build... Oh, wait!

We've got Russia( nah, make it all ex-soviet bloc). Everything is fine there - great job for 75 years. Generation is still recovering. China's CCP smartly introduced capitalism in the mix in order to maintain everything, although total control of just about everything doesn't make it all that tempting. Also Venezuela would like a word. I don't want to mention Cuba, since it's tiny, but I know that life has to be pretty hard if you're willing to throw your entire family on a makeshift raft and brave the ocean just to get away - simply food for thought.

Your example with computers doesn't work. The system destroyed countries and generations are still bearing consequences, so if 75% of computers exploded in people's faces and killed their family members - I'm sure you'd understand if the country would say "no computers for us, thanks"! Even if yours would work perfectly fine. There is a reason millions of people are against socialism (and communism) - and "red scare" is a thing. I'm sure you can see a strong push-back on this concept from across the globe. And while it's tempting to think that you're the smart one, with all the evidence and examples how it could work - I hope you won't go the way of Dunning Kruger effect. You don't have to listen to me, but you should at least acknowledge there's a great number of people that are resistant an idea of socialism,
and there must be a reason for it - not that they are all dumber than you are.

I'm glad you like it though. I hope it will stay far far away from America in the beautiful Nordic countries. I've been to Finland - it's gorgeous over there. If it works - work it.

Even if you take my personal experience out - the main principals of socialism are something I will never get behind. But that's why I live in the country that's hard-core against it. I didn't start pushing my dirty capitalistic view on people surrounding me, I simply left to live where they already work. I wish people here would extend the same courtesy and hightail to Helsinki, but no - gotta have AOC talking nonsense. At the very least, "the squad" is considered crazy across the board here, and not even liberals take them seriously, so there's that.

Trade ya AOC for whomever is against socialism over there.

[Mauserich]

There are no benefits from any purely totalitarian system to the greater community. Not from communism nor from Manchester capitalism. The middle way of the social market economy is the way that has proven to be the most practicable.

[crunchyfrog]

Professor eredeti hozzászólása:

crunchyfrog eredeti hozzászólása:

No., because if that were the case the people would be creating the money. They aren't.

The government's central bank create the money. So you're wrong.

That's why when there's issues like cost of living going off, they will print more money.

Governments PRINT money that is not necessarily obtained through free market forces. However they act as corporations anyway & impose taxes, fess & charges in accordance to what they need.

I am not saying that Governments dont generate a profit at all, as we seem to be confusing income & profit. Consider that privateers, income earners pay the taxes that Governments need to operate in a profitable way

Governments printing money is inflationary & as history has shown us it does lead to a manipulation of free market forces.

Nope I'm not conflating anything.
Governments DO print money.

Show me evidence of any person who is a citizen anywhere LEGALLY printing and creating money outside crypto nonsense.

[Professor]

crunchyfrog eredeti hozzászólása:

Professor eredeti hozzászólása:

Governments PRINT money that is not necessarily obtained through free market forces. However they act as corporations anyway & impose taxes, fess & charges in accordance to what they need.

I am not saying that Governments dont generate a profit at all, as we seem to be confusing income & profit. Consider that privateers, income earners pay the taxes that Governments need to operate in a profitable way

Governments printing money is inflationary & as history has shown us it does lead to a manipulation of free market forces.

Nope I'm not conflating anything.
Governments DO print money.

Show me evidence of any person who is a citizen anywhere LEGALLY printing and creating money outside crypto nonsense.

We were talking about governments having no money of their own as governments wouldn't function without money & certainly that money comes from us the people. When a government invests in anything it is done with the peoples money, not their own

Governments dont have money they use everybody else's.

[crunchyfrog]

Professor eredeti hozzászólása:

crunchyfrog eredeti hozzászólása:

Nope I'm not conflating anything.
Governments DO print money.

Show me evidence of any person who is a citizen anywhere LEGALLY printing and creating money outside crypto nonsense.

We were talking about governments having no money of their own as governments wouldn't function without money & certainly that money comes from us the people. When a government invests in anything it is done with the peoples money, not their own

Governments dont have money they use everybody else's.

No, you're moving the goalposts. I was addressing the fact that you asserted money was created by the people - that's what you said.

It isn't as it's created by the governance. Demonstrably and easily so.

[Dutchgamer1982]

advantages of communism.
***what do you mean by communism OP?

do you mean the concept of socialism, and if so which variant of it do you mean?
or do you mean a certain state model, and again , which model and are we than talking the communist part.. or also factoring the technocratic/bureacratic/facist/meritocratic part of it?

the closer we stay to our nature, the better :
man in it's core nature is tribal.
tribes oppose others, the very opposite of "globalism/internationalism" generally associated with communism
but tribes also are rather equal
in that sence, everybody contributing to their ability, and taking to their needs, which is a communistic thought comes natural to humans.

tribes have as negative however they limit progress, so humans moved towards city states, than states, and the likes..
these larger organisational forms opressed some of the tribal nature of humans, forced us to coooperate beyond what we in our core are willing to.
basicly we sacrificed part of our own strenght and freedom and soul to progress humanity as a whole further.
->
but ALL that change also came at greater inequality, it's a balance struck.. we accept a little more inequality, and loosen the strenght of our social bonds to allow more in.. to get a higher technological standard in return.

it remains to be seen wheither that faustian deal is worth it and if man would not be more happy living tribal.. than again should happyness be the highest goal? ignorance may be bliss and who multiplies knowledge multiplies misery..

regardless the point is.. communism can never work for it tries to fully preserve the equality of a tribe, while at the same time demanding the maximum sacrifice of our individualism.. a combination that is contractive to how societies since they first arose ever excisted.
it simply cannot be done.. humans don't work that way

you can have a globalised world.. but no equality
or you can have an equal society, but a very divided world
or somewhere halfway those to extremes.

and this is why communism in practice never works.
It conflicts with human nature and society at it's core.

and thus it either reembraces individuality (like national socialism does.. like a tribe it only shares within the own tribe with strong hatred of outsiders,
-> or it abandons equality and turns opressive instead (as most communist nations have done)

[crunchyfrog]

Dutchgamer1982 eredeti hozzászólása:

advantages of communism.
***what do you mean by communism OP?

do you mean the concept of socialism, and if so which variant of it do you mean?
or do you mean a certain state model, and again , which model and are we than talking the communist part.. or also factoring the technocratic/bureacratic/facist/meritocratic part of it?

the closer we stay to our nature, the better :
man in it's core nature is tribal.
tribes oppose others, the very opposite of "globalism/internationalism" generally associated with communism
but tribes also are rather equal
in that sence, everybody contributing to their ability, and taking to their needs, which is a communistic thought comes natural to humans.

tribes have as negative however they limit progress, so humans moved towards city states, than states, and the likes..
these larger organisational forms opressed some of the tribal nature of humans, forced us to coooperate beyond what we in our core are willing to.
basicly we sacrificed part of our own strenght and freedom and soul to progress humanity as a whole further.
->
but ALL that change also came at greater inequality, it's a balance struck.. we accept a little more inequality, and loosen the strenght of our social bonds to allow more in.. to get a higher technological standard in return.

it remains to be seen wheither that faustian deal is worth it and if man would not be more happy living tribal.. than again should happyness be the highest goal? ignorance may be bliss and who multiplies knowledge multiplies misery..

regardless the point is.. communism can never work for it tries to fully preserve the equality of a tribe, while at the same time demanding the maximum sacrifice of our individualism.. a combination that is contractive to how societies since they first arose ever excisted.
it simply cannot be done.. humans don't work that way

you can have a globalised world.. but no equality
or you can have an equal society, but a very divided world
or somewhere halfway those to extremes.

and this is why communism in practice never works.
It conflicts with human nature and society at it's core.

and thus it either reembraces individuality (like national socialism does.. like a tribe it only shares within the own tribe with strong hatred of outsiders,
-> or it abandons equality and turns opressive instead (as most communist nations have done)

What an excellent well reasoned post!

[talemore]

People work for interaction with other humans who inspire them to do things in life.

They will try to escape and be stopped by Blackrock ESG

The ESG promote work who demand people to work and when people do not work Blackrock punish the society by dropping the credit score of the companies. This as effect punish those trying to escape the normal society as they are relying on companies underneath Blackrock ESG.

For this reason losses are created for anyone trying to uplift to a higher class while losses are used to promote the higher class. Society as a whole promotes the destruction of companies since very few are able to stand on their own without the credit based system who is used to give them loans.

This idea of constructive destruction was invented with the industrial revolution since it was the first time manpower exceeded the demand.

GMO has ensured that nobody without permission is allowed to farm without GMO seed. For the very reason that overproduction on food would create a depression where farmers are paid to not work so the farmers are kept employed by ensuring that they do not exceed the demand with manipulation on the market who create shortages. These shortages have been used by the communist parties to ensure nobody can simply survive on their own.

If people farm they would technically be able to survive on their own and the government wouldn't be able to do anything to them since they do not have any money or uses it to survive. This is why the idea of people going to a grocery store has been created. In the past only a few products were bought and today all of our food is bought in store.

For these reasons the capitalism in our world is an illusion you wish to dream and nobody is allowed to prove it otherwise that your choice to buy in store has been enforced to ensure you are in control.

[crunchyfrog]

talemore eredeti hozzászólása:

People work for interaction with other humans who inspire them to do things in life.

They will try to escape and be stopped by Blackrock ESG

The ESG promote work who demand people to work and when people do not work Blackrock punish the society by dropping the credit score of the companies. This as effect punish those trying to escape the normal society as they are relying on companies underneath Blackrock ESG.

For this reason losses are created for anyone trying to uplift to a higher class while losses are used to promote the higher class. Society as a whole promotes the destruction of companies since very few are able to stand on their own without the credit based system who is used to give them loans.

This idea of constructive destruction was invented with the industrial revolution since it was the first time manpower exceeded the demand.

GMO has ensured that nobody without permission is allowed to farm without GMO seed. For the very reason that overproduction on food would create a depression where farmers are paid to not work so the farmers are kept employed by ensuring that they do not exceed the demand with manipulation on the market who create shortages. These shortages have been used by the communist parties to ensure nobody can simply survive on their own.

If people farm they would technically be able to survive on their own and the government wouldn't be able to do anything to them since they do not have any money or uses it to survive. This is why the idea of people going to a grocery store has been created. In the past only a few products were bought and today all of our food is bought in store.

For these reasons the capitalism in our world is an illusion you wish to dream and nobody is allowed to prove it otherwise that your choice to buy in store has been enforced to ensure you are in control.

Sounds like complete word salad. You got any evidence to support this claim?

[talemore]

crunchyfrog eredeti hozzászólása:

talemore eredeti hozzászólása:

People work for interaction with other humans who inspire them to do things in life.

They will try to escape and be stopped by Blackrock ESG

The ESG promote work who demand people to work and when people do not work Blackrock punish the society by dropping the credit score of the companies. This as effect punish those trying to escape the normal society as they are relying on companies underneath Blackrock ESG.

For this reason losses are created for anyone trying to uplift to a higher class while losses are used to promote the higher class. Society as a whole promotes the destruction of companies since very few are able to stand on their own without the credit based system who is used to give them loans.

This idea of constructive destruction was invented with the industrial revolution since it was the first time manpower exceeded the demand.

GMO has ensured that nobody without permission is allowed to farm without GMO seed. For the very reason that overproduction on food would create a depression where farmers are paid to not work so the farmers are kept employed by ensuring that they do not exceed the demand with manipulation on the market who create shortages. These shortages have been used by the communist parties to ensure nobody can simply survive on their own.

If people farm they would technically be able to survive on their own and the government wouldn't be able to do anything to them since they do not have any money or uses it to survive. This is why the idea of people going to a grocery store has been created. In the past only a few products were bought and today all of our food is bought in store.

For these reasons the capitalism in our world is an illusion you wish to dream and nobody is allowed to prove it otherwise that your choice to buy in store has been enforced to ensure you are in control.

Sounds like complete word salad. You got any evidence to support this claim?

credit card = credit based system

GMO = Resistant to poison , we toxic the ground to ensure only GMO plants survive even if it sold as something else only GMO is allowed to growth. The plants are IP locked, you not allowed to accidentally crossbreed GMO since you would then be able to make your own GMO seeds and IP lock the seeds and compete with the sellers of the seed. The farmers are in their mercy only able to growth for profit with help of GMO as it has knocked out any other competitors. This is why Sri Lanka attempt was handled with terrorism and financial crisies, suddently there was terror and the Blackrock ESG stopped any more loans.

The stop of loans is their best weapon and it allow Blackrock ESG to decide winner in the captial race since you need the banks for upscaling.

Prices were increased by destruction of production. Mass production reduces prices as the amount of products have increased. To prevent prices from dropping the sellers have to be forced to not sell or to buy up all the goods. Farmers in USA were paid to not work and slaughering of cattle is used to increase the prices on meat and reduce the demand on corn which as well collapses the income of farmers and the consumers.


Only because credit cards exist do not mean it's right to deny the existence of credit cards and the credit based system. They're given to people without any checkup as they become hooked into the new credit based system where people have been stamped for ctimes they never comitted and trying to make their life depending on the company deciding if they're allowed to a loan. This allow them to control markets as people are using the credit based system for mortgages.

I am self not by law enforced to give you any proof by section 230.
"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider"

[talemore]

The best example I can provide is that when mass production increased to an amount the products simply vanishes from the stores.

Playstation 3, xbox 360, laptops

They haven't sold them all.

[=(^ ^)=]

Han Solo eredeti hozzászólása:

2. Recognises that the contribution of a worker - his lifetime labour & safety, is ultimately a more valuable contribution than any amount of financial investment - the worker gives more.

I don't get your point. You can work a lifetime and give one milion of € in contribution. I can do nothing a lifetime and give one billion of € in contribution. Now thanks to me we can build hospitals, and thanks to you we can build tales about good wills. Can you tell me how the worker gives more?