All Women Gamers should unite in order to fight online bullying

[Apexnexius]

#Gals Uniting Against Online Misogyny

There is so much toxic behavior in online lobbies that the easiest way is not to reveal our voices at all.

But not letting our soft voices flow freely over the internet from our microphones, has its downsides too.
It furthers the impression that there are only male gamers playing PC Games.

Basically we're damned if we don't and we're damned if we do. -_-

[Rymuga]

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

Using what I collected I see the following:
1. is an attempted insult to simplify the person who uses their own experience. (He never stated it didn't happen elsewhere, you you demeaned them to make it seem like they are)

His response to women being bullied is "ackshually misandry is more important according to where I live" which is good and fine. But it doesn't change the fact that women are socially considered lesser around the world. It's the exact same thing racist people do when they hear "black lives matter." They say "white lives matter" or "all lives matter" in an attempt to downplay women's issues as if they aren't unique or important.

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

4. I guess that is that one guy who replied haywirely, and you needed to explain to what feminism is and what it stands for. It also seems like projection, because I did read "Men often partake in harrassment" somewhere and all kinds of arguments that criminalize men as bullies to be wary of up front.

Because they do. Not all men of course, but enough of them that it's a huge systemic issue. I'm not going to police my tone about it.

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

5. He was talking about the WHO's posts specifically, but not the data it offers. (only the posts)

It isn't brainwashing. It draws conclusions based on the data, though.

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

What I am arguing as such is that there was only one guy who apparently is 'alt-right', and that single person is the reason you use to to say 'people' (by which you mean averagely people), don't even attempt to acknowledge it (judging / accusing), which isn't good for reputation. I don't think that is true, nor that he is a good example human to use. There is also little to no data on the claim. There maybe a heavy guess of a suggestion that it maybe preset in poorer countries from what I read; which is an extrapolaration. The data specifically said there is more inequality in poorer countries, so I can't say if the acknowledgement is there. I think there is acknowledgement, but the basis isn't solid. A youtuber or two doesn't define the whole region.

I consider most anti-feminists alt-right. I could be more specific but I really don't care about offending people who despise women.

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

Another thing I argue is that its easy to be victim, to feel hurt, to be negative and see everything as harm. Hatred towards woman requires intend of hatred. It requires trying to convince others to hate them along with them.
And that does happen online yes, but I wonder if that happens in games.
A good example of misogyny can be found when you look for Incel news.

Most people on this thread have been trying to convince others to dislike women and downplay their struggles. How many comments have you seen in here that are absolutely void of data or reason? How many comments do you see that are like "Uh no, it's not just a woman problem. Everyome gets bullied lol, stop asking for special treatment."

And the worst part is their arguments always end in "The only reliable sources I have are my eyes" or an all out flamewar like that xham guy.

Or most recently, the guy who admits he knows nothing about the subject, but just gets happy when people in the Online gaming sphere are hurt. These people are deranged.

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

but like...
Its also conviction of a belief, indoctrination, education, and the way that they were taught in early childhood. People aren't inheritly bad, nor incapable of change. They are though, if you push them into a specific classification and brand them forever.
The key is understanding these people, where they come from; only then can you effectively change them and thus reduce the negative experiences you conceive as misogynist. That is what I think.

I'm not going to be nice to people who ignore data, argue purely via anecdote, and say "people get bullied, this is just how it is."

But they barely ever say "It shouldn't be this way." No, instead they'd rather say stuff like "you can stamp your feet and march in protest it won't help."

I refuse to be a sweet potato pie to them. They're sick in the head and I will brand them as such.

[Elucidator]

Messaggio originale di Rymuga:

But it doesn't change the fact that women are socially considered lesser around the world. It's the exact same thing racist people do when they hear "black lives matter." They say "white lives matter" or "all lives matter" in an attempt to downplay women's issues as if they aren't unique or important.

So because you think he thinks it doesn't require as much attention as he thinks you want it to have, it gives you the entitled right to downplay him and insult him freely.

Messaggio originale di Rymuga:

Because they do. Not all men of course, but enough of them that it's a huge systemic issue. I'm not going to police my tone about it.

The problem is, is that it creates systemic hatred of men. If you pre-emptively judge them as criminals before proven innocent (which will never happen as people's behavior could change), then you can probably see how that becomes an issue.
"Not all men, but enough men.", means society should treat all men up front as criminals regardless of age, etc. until proven innocent enough. It will create a dystopic state.
Its best if you discard the bias you seem to have in my opinion. Especially if you know 'not all men, are like-' whatever you imagine. You're going to sacrifice that group for some imagined 'greater good', which in the end means a world without men effectively.

Messaggio originale di Rymuga:

I consider most anti-feminists alt-right. I could be more specific but I really don't care about offending people who despise women.

Feel free to use your free pass. (But do know there could very well be a flaw in judgement.)
I think if you don't want to be insulted you shouldn't do it to others myself, but I'm not you- so..

Messaggio originale di Rymuga:

Most people on this thread have been trying to convince others to dislike women and downplay their struggles. How many comments have you seen in here that are absolutely void of data or reason? How many comments do you see that are like "Uh no, it's not just a woman problem. Everyome gets bullied lol, stop asking for special treatment."

And the worst part is their arguments always end in "The only reliable sources I have are my eyes" or an all out flamewar like that xham guy.

Or most recently, the guy who admits he knows nothing about the subject, but just gets happy when people in the Online gaming sphere are hurt. These people are deranged.

My post was strictly about what got replied to your posts and your data.
Biasses can be blinding. I haven't seen the guy who did reply to you, who argued about his experience use it to convince others to dislike women or downplay their struggles. Bring it less priority attention then you want in their region, yes, but-- claiming they're partaking in bullying you and other women is a bit of a stretched conclusion.

That said I do spot them getting tired.

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

I'm not going to be nice to people who ignore data, argue purely via anecdote, and say "people get bullied, this is just how it is."

But they barely ever say "It shouldn't be this way." No, instead they'd rather say stuff like "you can stamp your feet and march in protest it won't help."

I refuse to be a sweet potato pie to them. They're sick in the head and I will brand them as such.

Rather than branding, bullying and isolating them, I was saying that they require help and medical care (therapy).
And what I was also trying to say is that understanding makes things a lot less stresful.

[Rymuga]

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

This already sparks a hint of that attachment trauma I mentioned and the way boys are brought up. One problem is that showing weakness, seeking support is looked down upon with guys so they report it less frequently out of shame. Likely they bully more frequently to deal with their own issues. Trauma does things, you see.. Belittling eachother to be recognized, for self worth or victimizing themselves for the same reason so that it maybe become more valid to report or something. Anyway...

This happens to girls too by the way, though it can manifest itself in many different ways. I find it interesting you wouldn't even consider that.

Also, the point of that post was that boys bully more, but my main claim is that when women are bullied it's often because they are women. Because they are looked down on. Especially when they "step out of line" and do something that isn't socially considered woman-like. Hint hint.

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

So, if someone has issues and happens to be male and male related then, its no big deal. It is ignorable. They're just whining a bit about it, making it seem big, etc.
That is precisely why men get traumatized as a child. That is what their mother tells them every time they have an issue. "Man up", basically. Don't do that.

I recognize that men have their own problems with toxic masculinity and more, and it's perpetuated by mothers AND fathers. Again, you're putting the blame squarely on the mother in your post when you say "this is what their mother tells them every time they have an issue." Tell me why you phrased it as such?

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

[You] try to make him look crazy or dumb, by claiming he believes the earth is flat, etc. by his own logic.
He talks about what he experienced in his environment
You claim he considers himself and his location as the center of the universe
OP awards you for insulting him and adds into it.
Then OP claims how bad they have it.
You thank OP and want to award them back?
He explains about things he has seen himself.

Yes, because "I don't have any sources for this systemic issue y'all are talking about. Only the things happening around me locally are the things that happen" is insane and stupid. I'm not saying his experiences are invalid, but for the millionth time:

His living condition does not determine the condition of the entire world.

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

That reference you made by the way was an official WHO paper which they removed from their website, so... I found some more recent data (I mean it was an 2008 paper).
In the newer document by the same author[apps.who.int], we see on page 98 that boys have reported being more likely targets of bullying. And below this on page 100, we see its also boys have reported to more likely bully. On page 102, we see cyberbullying. It seems here girls more often report being bullied and boys more often report that they bully.
This is from 2017[cdn.who.int], which shows at page 73 some data.
We see on page 74 and page 75 boys get bullied more often.

I already explained to him that boys are likely to experience more bullying, not only because boys bully more often, but also because boys do not exclusively bully girls. In fact it's more likely that they'd bully other boys more often. The question is: When they bully girls, why do they do it? How intense is it compared to the bullying of boys? Is it different or unique?

Social conditions and gender relations are important when talking about misogyny.

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

The most prevalent method of bullying according to the data you yourself posted earlier is namecalling. Second to that is spreading rumors. It is not targetted harrassment. Second to this, by claiming 'men often partake in targetted harrassment', you're saying 2 out of 10 men you encounter partake in it. Not only does the data not show this at all, but it immediately insults a lot of guys you play with. It damages their image and incites hatred towards men.

Read above.

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

We can already see trolling going on there, as well as being given rewards for trolling. The whole point with the US privilege argument is that it is invisible to those who have it.
The link you posted[www.oecd.org] talks about gender discrimination, but clarifies seemingly its caused by choices women make, such as not learning to code. That is not what discrimination is, that is what inequality is. Discrimination happens when people aren't allowed access to something based on some aspect. I don't read that at all on that page.

There's a difference between social discrimination and legal discrimination. Ask yourself "why did women make those choices?" Would it hurt their image? Why would it hurt their image? And so on. I previously posted that legally, women are equal for the most part. The problem is social norms encouraging the hatred of woman. Basically the social act of "keeping them in their lane."

BTW if you have to post twice, the post is too long. I offered to start up an argument with you so we don't have go through every single thing I ever said and others ever said.

[Rymuga]

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

So because you think he thinks it doesn't require as much attention as he thinks you want it to have, it gives you the entitled right to downplay him and insult him freely.

The man is in a thread about misogyny, openly admitting he knows nothing about it, openly admitting he only prioritizes stuff around him. And for what? Everything about that was stupid.

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

The problem is, is that it creates systemic hatred of men. If you pre-emptively judge them as criminals before proven innocent (which will never happen as people's behavior could change), then you can probably see how that becomes an issue.
"Not all men, but enough men.", means society should treat all men up front as criminals regardless of age, etc. until proven innocent enough. It will create a dystopic state.
Its best if you discard the bias you seem to have in my opinion. Especially if you know 'not all men, are like-' whatever you imagine. You're going to sacrifice that group for some imagined 'greater good', which in the end means a world without men effectively.

I'm not suggesting that they are criminals, I'm suggesting that they're more likely to be misogynists and bullies. Because it is true. And it creates a ridiculous amount of seething systemic hatred for women, not only in the US but around the world.

You don't get to be a misogynist and then play the victim like "why do people not like me" when they see you mindlessly hating women.

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

Feel free to use your free pass. (But do know there could very well be a flaw in judgement.)
I think if you don't want to be insulted you shouldn't do it to others myself, but I'm not you- so..

What would you call people who are anti-feminist. Anti-equality. Those who hear "women's struggles" and then chime in like "-aren't a big deal." Would ignorant be better?

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

My post was strictly about what got replied to your posts and your data.
Biasses can be blinding. I haven't seen the guy who did reply to you, who argued about his experience use it to convince others to dislike women or downplay their struggles. Bring it less attention then you want in their region, yes, but-- claiming they're partaking in bullying you and other women is a bit of a stretched conclusion.

That said I do spot them getting tired.

I was talking about most people who have contentions with the original post.

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

Rather than branding, bullying and isolating them, I was saying that they require help and medical care (therapy).
And what I was also trying to say is that understanding makes things a lot less stresful.

Listen, for the most part they have branded and isolated themselves. People do this all the time, considering themselves "anti-woke, anti-LGBT, incel, MGTOW," etc..

Most of these people despise the idea of therapy, and will live out their lives spreading harmful ideas about women, minorities, or whatever they hate. I'm just here to argue against those ideas until literally anyone wonders why I'm being so persistent about it. And maybe look into it a little bit, question their worldview.

[Elucidator]

Messaggio originale di Rymuga:

I recognize that men have their own problems with toxic masculinity and more, and it's perpetuated by mothers AND fathers. Again, you're putting the blame squarely on the mother in your post when you say "this is what their mother tells them every time they have an issue." Tell me why you phrased it as such?

Mother also doesn't nessecarily mean female, it means mother-role.
It can mean anyone practically.

Perhaps you're unaware, but as it stands in most countries, the father goes to work while the mother stays home in the early years of a child.
It allows the mother to take care of the child while the father collects wage.

A proper attachment happens in the first 6 years, especially the first 4 are crucial.
This is a time period in which with most countries, with our current society, all of the child's dependence is directed at the mother. A child rarely learns mirroring, recognizing the emotions from the father.

The way society is set up as it is means the father cannot even have the chance of taking the place of the mother. Usually legal benefits of early years with a child are only preset for mothers, unless their is no mother.

A child leaves school at 3, a father works till 5 and is home at dinner time. There is a two hour period where the child can discuss any problems (or get over it, if emotionally neglected). The father has no chance to step in there due to work obligations.

but in case the father is the one taking care of the kid, then its obviously the father's task to deal with these things and if it goes wrong their blame.

"Why do you phrase it as such", as such is due to a stereotype idea about societies globally.
Much like why you phrase "Men harrass women" despite not meaning all men.

Messaggio originale di Rymuga:

I'm not saying his experiences are invalid, but for the millionth time:
His living condition does not determine the condition of the entire world.

That entire post was just collecting information to get to the conclusion you asked for.
I have heard this already, but what I was hinting to is how it could be seen as an insult.

Messaggio originale di Rymuga:

I already explained to him that boys are likely to experience more bullying, not only because boys bully more often, but also because boys do not exclusively bully girls. In fact it's more likely that they'd bully other boys more often. The question is: When they bully girls, why do they do it? How intense is it compared to the bullying of boys? Is it different or unique?

Social conditions and gender relations are important when talking about misogyny.

That is an important question indeed.

Messaggio originale di Rymuga:

There's a difference between social discrimination and legal discrimination. Ask yourself "why did women make those choices?" Would it hurt their image? Why would it hurt their image? And so on. I previously posted that legally, women are equal for the most part. The problem is social norms encouraging the hatred of woman. Basically the social act of "keeping them in their lane."

That sounds cultural. I am not a member of the US, so no clue.

Messaggio originale di Rymuga:

BTW if you have to post twice, the post is too long. I offered to start up an argument with you so we don't have go through every single thing I ever said and others ever said.

I was trying to argue the points you make that claim:

Messaggio originale di Rymuga:

It's funny just how much anti-feminist arguments make no sense.

and you didn't want to gather that information yourself. You hadn't backed up the claim for newer readers. You said, that I needed to look. I made an exception. Normally I don't go through the trouble.

It wasn't about arguing on everything, just about arguing on that post, which I couldn't do properly without the basis behind it.

My conclusion is that they weren't responses to you, it was more like the list was a bunch of responses from you to them.

[sleeps]

one of the threads ever

[Rymuga]

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

Mother also doesn't nessecarily mean female, it means mother-role.
It can mean anyone practically.

I'm sorry but that sounds like a gigantic cope lmao. "Uh by mother I actually meant mother and father."

That's on a totally different level of confusing than "men harass women" which most people should be able to recognize is not literal.

Also I have never denied that women can and do spread toxic masculinity.

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

That entire post was ju collecting information to get to the conclusion you asked for.
I have heard this already, but what I was hinting to is how it could be seen as an insult.

Yeah I'm sure he was genuinely questioning it, and had zero intent to deny it all from the beginning. That's why his response to misogyny is "no, misandry. I don't care about wot happens outside"

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

I was trying to argue the points you make that claim:

Messaggio originale di Rymuga:

It's funny just how much anti-feminist arguments make no sense. It's funny just how much anti-feminist arguments make no sense.

and you didn't want to gather that information yourself. You hadn't backed up the claim for newer readers. You said, that I needed to look. I made an exception. Normally I don't go through the trouble.

It wasn't about arguing on everything, just about arguing on that post, which I couldn't do properly without the basis behind it.

My conclusion is that they weren't responses to you, it was more like the list was a bunch of responses from you to them.

I feel like you could've just looked, we didn't have to go through it all @_@ tiring me the hell out and we're so removed from the main point loll

If I'm on tomorrow we can get back on topic and start a "new" conversation about the original post, whether you disagree or not, etc.

[Elucidator]

Well, whatever. It seems I am causing a lot of misunderstandings.
and explaining them is tiresome. I know why they happen, because likely they're distracted and don't care.
They want to be right, or more like "They are right.", like want, especially on this subject is an insult I guess. Suggesting want instead must mean I must hate women.

Messaggio originale di Rymuga:

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

Mother also doesn't nessecarily mean female, it means mother-role.
It can mean anyone practically.

I'm sorry but that sounds like a gigantic cope lmao. "Uh by mother I actually meant mother and father."

Like here, for example, they're outright denying my reasoning and claim I made it up on the spot practically (a cope). Earlier the documents and papers also spoke about transgenderism, not just man and women. It should be obvious what was on my mind knowing what I collected, but... the mind goes auto-guard. "Ah- no, no way I can be wrong", "They're making it up. LOL" or whatever.
so, there is no thought put into anything, except stuff they already thought about and know up front to put down, but they do type fast, I'll give them that.

I'm going to leave the thread alone. They won't learn much from me, not even on how to improve their argumentation if its not any subject.
So many perceived insults. So quickly to be conclusing the worst. Sigh-

I'm interested in feminists, not feminism, especially those heavily driven, but I can't learn what their reasoning is here I guess. Its like asking rock throwers why they through rocks, and receiving rocks instead of answers, basically.
They won't acknowledge they even throw rocks, and if they do, they have a justification that everything should accept, and if people don't, ... you know.
Meh-

Anyway thanks for reading my posts, it was nice engaging for a while.

[Hamless Hog]

Messaggio originale di Rymuga:

snip

But you also ignore the evidence from your links. Youve shown that males are bullied more than females. So why not try to defond males over females?

[Apexnexius]

Both of you, Rymuga and Elucidator, you are like really really good at discussing, and you both seem to be so much more educated on issues than me.

I'm not that great of a debater and I'm not that smart as you are, but I believe I agree most with Rymuga..
I really want us all to be friends and fight online bullying together.
Maybe we should take a good pause and come back to this thread in the weekend and debate issues?
You are so thorough and detailed (both of you).

From what I read I just feel like Rymuga is the one "supporting" being against misogyny.
I don't think what-about-isms are the right way to go, I dunno..

[Rymuga]

Messaggio originale di Hogarth:

Messaggio originale di Rymuga:

snip

But you also ignore the evidence from your links. Youve shown that males are bullied more than females. So why not try to defond males over females?

As I already explained, men are more exposed to bullying whether they're the bullies or bullied: Because men bully more, and they likely bully other men more.

However when women are bullied, it's often separate from the reasons men are bullied:

If she says something that isn't girly, she gets bullied for it because she's a girl.
If she sleeps around, she's looked down on because she's a girl.
If she chooses to pursue a career over a family, she's looked down on because she's a girl.
If a girl is identified in online video games, she's harassed for being a girl.
Girls are often treated purely as sexual objects, and they are stalked for it.

Does this stuff also happen to men? Sure. But nowhere near as often as it happens to women.

Do men have unique struggles? Yes, but they are totally different struggles and that's not what this topic is about. Make a new thread about men's struggles and I'll gladly talk about those.

[Irene ❤]

Fight who? Fight what?

Don't have to worry!

Just enjoy your game with friends. If it's not fun playing with random strangers then stop playing. Even kids know this logic.

Also what makes you think we actual real girls felt bullied? We join e-sports and achieve stuff. We are busy winning in games. We've ignored so many toxic players who lost to us.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se3U6B6wfUM
Don't have to create a problem which does not exist by assuming girls are weak minded. Life finds a way. : )

[Rymuga]

Messaggio originale di Elucidator:

Like here, for example, they're outright denying my reasoning and claim I made it up on the spot practically (a cope). Earlier the documents and papers also spoke about transgenderism, not just man and women. It should be obvious what was on my mind knowing what I collected, but... the mind goes auto-guard. "Ah- no, no way I can be wrong", "They're making it up. LOL" or whatever.
so, there is no thought put into anything, except stuff they already thought about and know up front to put down, but they do type fast, I'll give them that.

Because it was a cope. You could've easily just said mother and father. You didn't say "mother figure" to begin with, just mother.

I offered to start a new conversation with you multiple times, and now your response is to hyper-focus on the confusion you introduced just so you can give up.. OK I guess? Have a nice day.

[[horse whinnies]]

Messaggio originale di Hogarth:

Messaggio originale di Zef Davenport:

People won't believe when I tell them I'm a lady at first. Then they'll tell me to go into the kitchen or clean the house.
And I'll tell them that sure, once they manage to land a job and leave their mother's basement.

They always shut up after that.

Ive never found myself explaining to someone online that im a guy. This seems odd.

You don't need to - your "whatabout men?!" comments and general attitude towards the topic of sexism gives it away instantly.

[Charles]

Do people seriously still reply to these obvious troll threads?