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TheFounder 2022년 4월 26일 오후 7시 45분
What to do about Win11
So microsoft once again delivers a blow to PC users they and their crumby companies lining their pockets that are whispering in their ear, to not allow custom built (non PC company built, Dell, Acer, ETC.) PC's to run Win11. This is absolutely terrible! To bad AMD is not making their own OS as they are for the PC users. It's like microsoft aims to irritate their users and try to further monopolize anything and everything that they possibly can. What can we do as users?! How do we change their mind?!
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Crashed 2022년 4월 29일 오전 8시 21분 
Monster님이 먼저 게시:
Well I can say that I am not a fan of fake news or bs. Glad to know the articles were clickbait and will do my homework in the future regarding these issues with diligence. Would like to say however I just built my PC last year and here are my specs so I hope you can understand my dismay when finding these articles. Thanks for the replies all.
Intel I-9 10900KF 3.70ghz
Gigabyte Z490 Aorus Master
Corsair Vengeance Pro 1333 mhz 64gb ram
(2) m.3 hard drives
1200 watt PSU(overkill)
GPu Nvidia 3090 founders edition 24gb vRam(i like to do graphics for games)

I get what some of you are saying now about the issue with the I-9's. Should have waited for the 10 to drop.. oh well's.
It's more clickbait than fake news, as the article itself actually describes the required component which is the TPM 2.0, which if you enable in BIOS will be detected. If your motherboard has a TPM socket that is an option, but if TPM chips that fit your motherboard are being price scalped you can instead use the Intel Platform Trust Technology (PTT) built in to your processor and chipset.

I personally have a 12700K and the only Windows version that has run non-virtualized on it is 11. Since the motherboard is advertised as Windows 11 ready the PTT was already enabled in factory default settings.
Crashed 님이 마지막으로 수정; 2022년 4월 29일 오전 8시 22분
metamec 2022년 4월 29일 오전 8시 40분 
Linux (WSL2 + distribution) is one of my favourite things about Windows 11. Unlike the Windows 10 version of WSL2 it supports WSLg meaning you can run Windowed Linux apps on Windows with fully accelerated graphics. Being able to use VS Code with it and compile and test windows and linux executables with minimal faff is where it really comes alive for me though.
Crashed 2022년 4월 29일 오전 10시 09분 
metamec님이 먼저 게시:
Linux (WSL2 + distribution) is one of my favourite things about Windows 11. Unlike the Windows 10 version of WSL2 it supports WSLg meaning you can run Windowed Linux apps on Windows with fully accelerated graphics. Being able to use VS Code with it and compile and test windows and linux executables with minimal faff is where it really comes alive for me though.
I was going to make a comment regarding running an X11 server on Windows 10 for GUI under WSL, but then I saw you mentioned hardware acceleration.
lightwo 2022년 4월 29일 오전 10시 15분 
What to do about Windows 11? Ignore it! Use Linux. :signix:
Χάρης 2022년 4월 29일 오전 10시 18분 
Fostin4님이 먼저 게시:
My $1000 office laptop decided to update to win 11 and it has gotten way slower. Windows spaghetti code lulz.
This makes me skeptical about buying a next gen gaming laptop. Win 11 will probably use most of its resources. I'm glad I read that post.
lightwo 2022년 4월 29일 오전 10시 21분 
Stoffel the Honey Badger님이 먼저 게시:
some times it's a problem between the keyboard and the chair.
A chair? Are you interfacing furniture within Windows 11?
Crashed 2022년 4월 29일 오전 10시 23분 
Χάρης님이 먼저 게시:
Fostin4님이 먼저 게시:
My $1000 office laptop decided to update to win 11 and it has gotten way slower. Windows spaghetti code lulz.
This makes me skeptical about buying a next gen gaming laptop. Win 11 will probably use most of its resources. I'm glad I read that post.
It's often better to perform a clean install as upgrades can often go wrong. Every time I do a clean install it's like a new system.
metamec 2022년 4월 29일 오전 11시 57분 
Crashed님이 먼저 게시:
I was going to make a comment regarding running an X11 server on Windows 10 for GUI under WSL, but then I saw you mentioned hardware acceleration.

WSLg basically provides native support for X11 and Wayland GUI applications. No special display drivers have to be installed on the WSL2 (Linux) layer. The Nvidia Windows drivers are enough.

WSL2 lets you choose between Ubuntu, Debian, Kali and openSUSE, but I found Ubuntu to be best for accelerated GUI apps. I don't know if MS are more focused on that distro while developing WSL2 but there's no doubt extreme tux racer (which I used for evaluating each one) had a faster frame rate on Ubuntu.
metamec 님이 마지막으로 수정; 2022년 4월 29일 오전 11시 59분
Crashed 2022년 4월 29일 오후 12시 03분 
metamec님이 먼저 게시:
Crashed님이 먼저 게시:
I was going to make a comment regarding running an X11 server on Windows 10 for GUI under WSL, but then I saw you mentioned hardware acceleration.

WSLg basically provides native support for X11 and Wayland GUI applications. No special display drivers have to be installed on the WSL2 (Linux) layer. The Nvidia Windows drivers are enough.

WSL2 lets you choose between Ubuntu, Debian, Kali and openSUSE, but I found Ubuntu to be best for accelerated GUI apps. I don't know if MS are more focused on that distro while developing WSL2 but there's no doubt extreme tux racer (which I used for evaluating each one) had a faster frame rate on Ubuntu.
Of course you want WDDM 3.0 or newer drivers because those come bundled with Linux drivers to act as a translation layer between the WSL2 VM and the host.
metamec 2022년 4월 29일 오후 12시 20분 
Crashed님이 먼저 게시:
Of course you want WDDM 3.0 or newer drivers because those come bundled with Linux drivers to act as a translation layer between the WSL2 VM and the host.

The newest NVidia drivers have support for WDDM 3.0 included. Used to be you had to install an Nvidia Preview driver. Not any more.

As long as the latest Nvidia game ready (Windows 11) driver is installed then you can literally install a distribution of your choice, install a GUI app with AptGet in the very next step, run it and it just works. No fiddling around with drivers in between these two steps.
metamec 님이 마지막으로 수정; 2022년 4월 29일 오후 12시 21분
Morkonan 2022년 4월 29일 오후 3시 18분 
Just a note-post: Since Steam's data collection was mentioned, I looked it up today:

https://store.steampowered.com/privacy_agreement/

This... is a pretty darn enlightened Privacy Agreement. It even details the customer's Rights as described in various hallmark laws/regulations in common use around the world. It gives a lot of detailed breakdowns of how a user's privacy is protected beyond the boundaries of the services being provided.

Most of it is typical website/service-provider "speak." Anyone who processes payment information would include a lot of the rest, too. Third-party release is going to be dictated by contract and is fairly straightforward in this policy.

Importantly and surprisingly applicable here, however is that Steam/Valve even admits they are held liable for any abuses committed by a third-party that they knowingly release the info to... And, the overall theme of "protection" is continued, even when describing details like any IPs gathered by Google Analytics are truncated. This is all pretty exceptional stuff, IMO. They could, for instance, just say "F U" and would probably only lose about 3% of their customer base. :)

And, then, the loads of links to third-party agencies, regulations, etc, and an extensive breakdown of a user's "Rights" and how to go about pursuing them as well as what powers enforce them.

Refreshing.
Der tüddelige Fußgänger 2022년 4월 30일 오전 1시 33분 
Morkonan님이 먼저 게시:
Just a note-post: Since Steam's data collection was mentioned, I looked it up today:

https://store.steampowered.com/privacy_agreement/

This... is a pretty darn enlightened Privacy Agreement. It even details the customer's Rights as described in various hallmark laws/regulations in common use around the world. It gives a lot of detailed breakdowns of how a user's privacy is protected beyond the boundaries of the services being provided.

Most of it is typical website/service-provider "speak." Anyone who processes payment information would include a lot of the rest, too. Third-party release is going to be dictated by contract and is fairly straightforward in this policy.

Importantly and surprisingly applicable here, however is that Steam/Valve even admits they are held liable for any abuses committed by a third-party that they knowingly release the info to... And, the overall theme of "protection" is continued, even when describing details like any IPs gathered by Google Analytics are truncated. This is all pretty exceptional stuff, IMO. They could, for instance, just say "F U" and would probably only lose about 3% of their customer base. :)

And, then, the loads of links to third-party agencies, regulations, etc, and an extensive breakdown of a user's "Rights" and how to go about pursuing them as well as what powers enforce them.

Refreshing.
According to to tosdr.org
They only have a D in privacy, instead of an E, like pretty much 90% of the website.
Impressive
Der tüddelige Fußgänger 2022년 4월 30일 오전 1시 37분 
Also wih point 3.3 in the privacy policy, they can even read all the information, you've send in Chats. They didn't seperate public group, or private chats between 2 people
Vault Hunter 101 2022년 4월 30일 오전 4시 40분 
They save you by not allowing Win11, newer does not equal better
Morkonan 2022년 4월 30일 오전 10시 34분 
The Nintendo guy님이 먼저 게시:
..
According to to tosdr.org
They only have a D in privacy, instead of an E, like pretty much 90% of the website.
Impressive

Interesting.

I read through their entry.

https://tosdr.org/en/service/180

Some of their "checkpoints" are false. For instance, Valve/Steam specifically in the Privacy Statement above, informs users it is liable for inappropriate third-party use of any private information if it knowingly gives that data to a third-party for that use. In Tosdr, they claim the opposite and that no liability is accepted by Valve/Steam.

On non-binding arbitration, there are too many instances of applicable Laws and regulations in the Privacy Statement to make a universal arbitration claim... Some of those are "governments" who have "tanks" that will shoot businesses in the face if they violate certain laws.

"Arbitration" here is according to Privacy Shield:

https://www.privacyshield.gov/welcome

That's a body established by the US and EU concerning privacy and privacy-related data exchange. AFAIK, it's arbitration clause does not and can not possibly involve decisions concerning monetary awards. IOW - It's for "data" and how it's handled, only. So, if you "sue" someone, like Valve, for money, it's not something that can be resolved under PrivacyShield. It'd have to then go to the courts involved, "AFAIK." But, let's say you wanted your data entirely removed from Steam or contest how it's used. IF it involves something outside of Steam's current agreement, then it would be subjected to PrivacyShield and its clauses, AFAIK, just so long as you weren't monetarily suing someone. (I'm not an attorney.)


Some of their bullet-points, though... are stupid.

"This service uses your personal information for many different purposes " - Serriously? LOL? How does a website "pass" that qualificaction? By doing what?

Look at the rest of those entries that have been "failed." Quite a few, like the above, are nonsensical. There are few website pages, let alone sites, that would pass those standards... They're too arbitrarily defined.

And, I noticed they gave "Startpage" a great rating. (All passes or whatever?)

That's questionable...

None of the entries they have given a "pass" to involve inquiry into meta-data analysis and practices, there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Startpage.com#Merger_and_recent_history

Privacy One Group is owned by... "System!". (The exclamation point is in their trademark.)

http://techrights.org/2019/10/16/startpage-is-surveillance/

https://restoreprivacy.com/startpage-system1-privacy-one-group/

I would be very cautious with Startpage. While it could be attempting to develop predictive algorithms based on search string data and linked behaviors, there's a bit more room there for exploitation. For instance, given enough user activity data and meta-data, it's very possible to identify specific individuals very accurately without having any direct IP/User data. That's the "metadata" debate associated with individual privacy. ie: You can be correctly ID'd without your IP addy being known if someone has access to your behavioral records and can compare them to current metadata. This "could be" what System! is attempting to do and is now using Startpage for in an effort to generate good algorithms. (Getting "real world" data to use to generate these sorts of algorithms is an activity that businesses around the world are competing heavily to find sources for. (Behavioral analysis, even "anonymous" behavior, is big money right now.)

The thing is, though, Steam/Valve doesn't appear to reach beyond its own services or systems and specifically states where and how it takes measures to protect user privacy. Some of the instances of "data sharing" are necessary, like players using the "User your Steam Login" api to log into third-party websites, for example. And, even then, it's a Steam ID, with aunthentication done back at Valve/Steam, AFAIK. (Corrections welcomed) Steam User IDs don't break beyond the NIC wall unless the user has enabled that.

If one reads the Steam Privacy Agreement, there's a lot more protections there going on than anything that website would acknowledge. And, Steam absolutely has to track people's accounts... forum posts... Library contents.. Like many websites, there are certain local tracking features that are absolutely required. Also note - While Steam may use cookies internally, which counts as "tracking," it's not monitoring one's private behavior outside of interacting with the services/website. It IS tracking gameplay, which is a primary activity on the service, and that would "fail" it according to the website you listed.

I'm unsure why that website "tosdr" exists. For instance, it showed Amazon on the front-page, obviously failing. And... there's no way Amazon could function if it "passed" "tosdr's" qualifications. We also all know Amazon tracks anyone, everywhere... But, if it didn't, and just restricted operations to selling junk online and doing absolutely nothing else, it'd likely fail abysmally. Tracking user purchases would fail it, even if it did so in order to communicate those to a shipper.

Is that a meaningful measurement?

I understand why the site exists, but some services cant even allow a user to login without "failing" that website's questions. A ton of those questions just aren't meaningful. I'd be hesitant to place much credibility on its recommendations. In order to be a meaningful answer, the questions have to be.. meaningful in the context in which they're asked.


PS: I am not a Steam Fanboi. I just ain't. I have grown to like the service after being a staunch anti-Steamer from way back. But, I don't "trust" anyone, either. I certainly don't "trust" Steam or Valve. But, if Steam/Valve hold true to the letter and apparent spirit of their Privacy Agreement, it seems to me to be a pretty decent, straighforward, attempt to ensure better privacy than some other operators. Certainly, it's better than Microsoft's, isn't it?

Note: I examined Steam's privacy agreement after reading someone make an assertion that Steam/Vavle's data collection and use of private information may be suspect. I don't see where it is given what is in the Privacy Agreement. If someone has info to the contrary, I'd appreciate knowing it.
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모든 토론 > Steam 포럼 > Off Topic > 제목 정보
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