Todas as discussões > Fóruns Steam > Off Topic > Detalhes do tópico
Sanguine 17 fev. 2021 às 7:36
where is vr AAA games? we have hardware without games!!!!
we have valve index, but the only amazing game is Half Life Alyx.
the others vr games are not polished and most of all is boring.
Whyy? whyyyy
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crunchyfrog 18 fev. 2021 às 15:29 
Originalmente postado por n00by:
VR is too niche cos it's pricy.

Not that many are willing to shell 1K bucks for a head set.
No, while that is ONE factor it's one of a LOOONG list of issues that will likely never be solved.

Granted, the cost issue should mitigate in time, as you know how it goes with tech and mass production.

But there are real insurmountable problems.

Namely, the issue that I and Tito have spoken of - the nausea, motion sickness and migraine inducing stuff. While that varies wildly from person to person, and example to example, and even game to game, it remains a permanent problem becuase the root of VR is to FOOL the brain and many people's brains will simply rebel at that in a number of ways. Some get used to it, others don't.

Then there's the big elephant in the room - the games themselves. It's not been demonstrated that VR gaming offers anything apart from a niche avenue, much in a similar way to mobile gaming. Mobile gaming is great for games like XCOM, or tower defence, as the touchscreen works great with those sort of games. Anything else and it's absolutely dreadful. You are bound by your control issues.

And VR has the endemic problem that you CANNOT move in game in a way that sits within VR. Move your head, and it's 1:1. Move your hands and it's 1:1. Now try moving your whole body over there. There's your problem.

Granted, some have designed the games where you can point and teleport but it remains a burden that restricts games.

The second elephant in the room is what games ARE - leisure activities. Especially older gamers above the age of 24 (which also is the largest age group), they predominantly have working lives and want to game in their limited spare time, by kicking back and relaxing. Getting up and moving around is the absolutel antithesis of this. Sure, you can use it for a workout of sorts, but again this is all real short patches of gaming.

You can never get over that hurdle. To take that further, there's the 20% of all gamers that are like me - disabled. Or rather have some form of disability that affects their gaming in some way. These will vary wildly but unsurprisingly the largest group in there are those of us who are physically disabled. Unless someone like myself can grow a new spine, there's no way I'm standing up and frolicking around even if I could. That's a substantial chunk of the potential market.

There's more than this as this list is not exhaustive, but the point is that some of these are ninsurmountable or nigh on insurmountable. At best VR will only ever be a niche product. It can never REPLACE normal gaming, like some seem to think. At worst it's a flash in the pan not dissimilar in reception to the many attempts at 3D over the years both in cinema and gaming.

Originalmente postado por Miss Ann Thrope:
Yep. As an older gamer myself, I am very fond of sitting.

Even sitting is asking a bit much. I do most of my gaming laying down on a couch with a controller these days.
Tito Shivan 19 fev. 2021 às 0:26 
Originalmente postado por crunchyfrog:
Namely, the issue that I and Tito have spoken of - the nausea, motion sickness and migraine inducing stuff. While that varies wildly from person to person, and example to example, and even game to game, it remains a permanent problem becuase the root of VR is to FOOL the brain and many people's brains will simply rebel at that in a number of ways. Some get used to it, others don't.
Note a part of that is to blame to us not having quite learned how to use VR as a gaming medium and porting experiences which work in a framed screen but don't in a fully inmersive medium. It's not the same 'running-n-gunning' through a screen than through a VR headset. The brain processes both experiences in a different manner.
We're still gameplay-wise 'throwing things at the wall to see what sticks' in regards VR.

And lets not forget this is -even as of now- an issue for regular gaming. As the brain also process differently the same game if you play it on a TV screen two feet away from your face or on a screen less than a feet away. Put a too narrow FoV in a PC game (which works for your console version) and people will start getting headaches.

Originalmente postado por crunchyfrog:
The second elephant in the room is what games ARE - leisure activities.
This reminded me how when Nintendo released the Wii and its motion controllers it didn't take much for people to guess how to play their games sitting on the couch. This is another part of the gameplay feedback. It's so much for devs to guess how to offer a gameplay experience as it is for gamers to guess how to comfortably play those games.

Originalmente postado por crunchyfrog:
Especially older gamers above the age of 24 (which also is the largest age group), they predominantly have working lives and want to game in their limited spare time, by kicking back and relaxing.
I want a VR game which is just a virtual garden to take care of plants and chill out inside. Not every VR experience has to be a exhausting one.

Again we're still at the 'guessing out' phase of what works and doesn't in VR.
Última alteração por Tito Shivan; 19 fev. 2021 às 0:27
Martin Harris 19 fev. 2021 às 0:55 
Just because they aren't AAA doesn't mean they aren't fantastic games that are polished well though?

Blade and Sorcery
Beatsaber
Boneworks
Parlov
Gorn
Walking Dead : Saints and Sinners

And those are just the ones I own.
Sure I'd love some more AAA companies to start with the VR market, but we don't have a shortage of high quality games.
AdahnGorion 19 fev. 2021 às 1:26 
Originalmente postado por Tito Shivan:
Originalmente postado por Darkie:
VR will be niche as a gaming platform, even more so because it is not a core item... But ofc.. could be wrong, trends can change direction. VR also has way to many issues and kinks atm..
Tech becoming cheaper is a different subject than a market being niche. The displays now mounted on a HMD would have costed an arm and a leg five years ago. Likewise for the GPU power required to run a VR game.

I've never said VR was out there to dethrone anyone. Just it's bound to become cheaper and cheaper as every other tech out there.

No really... 5 years ago and also now.. a avarage (almost dare say entry level tier) gpu, is more than enough to run VR......

Tech sometimes becomes cheaper, but most of the time, you see various techs competing and one (often the one, the avarage Joe/Judy likes the most and can use boardly) are the ones that progress and wins the battle, then becomes cheaper.. MR/AR is too big a mouthful for "regular" current styled VR, that revolves around "gaming"

Again, to bring back smartphones, it took almost no time for it to go from nothing, to mainstream... obviously, because it is a core and everyday usage tech without any hassle or widespread issues... like with VR atm.
crunchyfrog 20 fev. 2021 às 14:27 
Originalmente postado por Tito Shivan:
Originalmente postado por crunchyfrog:
Namely, the issue that I and Tito have spoken of - the nausea, motion sickness and migraine inducing stuff. While that varies wildly from person to person, and example to example, and even game to game, it remains a permanent problem becuase the root of VR is to FOOL the brain and many people's brains will simply rebel at that in a number of ways. Some get used to it, others don't.
Note a part of that is to blame to us not having quite learned how to use VR as a gaming medium and porting experiences which work in a framed screen but don't in a fully inmersive medium. It's not the same 'running-n-gunning' through a screen than through a VR headset. The brain processes both experiences in a different manner.
We're still gameplay-wise 'throwing things at the wall to see what sticks' in regards VR.

And lets not forget this is -even as of now- an issue for regular gaming. As the brain also process differently the same game if you play it on a TV screen two feet away from your face or on a screen less than a feet away. Put a too narrow FoV in a PC game (which works for your console version) and people will start getting headaches.

Originalmente postado por crunchyfrog:
The second elephant in the room is what games ARE - leisure activities.
This reminded me how when Nintendo released the Wii and its motion controllers it didn't take much for people to guess how to play their games sitting on the couch. This is another part of the gameplay feedback. It's so much for devs to guess how to offer a gameplay experience as it is for gamers to guess how to comfortably play those games.

Originalmente postado por crunchyfrog:
Especially older gamers above the age of 24 (which also is the largest age group), they predominantly have working lives and want to game in their limited spare time, by kicking back and relaxing.
I want a VR game which is just a virtual garden to take care of plants and chill out inside. Not every VR experience has to be a exhausting one.

Again we're still at the 'guessing out' phase of what works and doesn't in VR.

You're right, to a point.

This might be one of the first instances where I largely disagree with you though.

Your points are valid of course, but the thing that I would like to point out is that while it's true the kinks haven't been worked out. I'm wondering if they will EVER be worked out - that's the more glaring thing to me.

For example, concerning the Wii. Excellent example, as it soon worked out that people learned how to sit down and use the controllers. But then again, this was very much known at the outset as Nintendo (while they promoted the more athletic, family oritened standing up and playing) did know it was usable sat down.

I don't see the same for VR. Sure, it may be that the achilles' heel of not being able to move properly in game (compared to yo9ur other movement) will be solved or got round and a new avenue or even genre may be found, but the thing to remember is - this ain't release time. It's been around a number of years and it's pretty safe to say that nobody's got close to getting round this yet.

As ever, you do make some very valid points. I'm just not as convinced it's going to end up any furhter "ahead", as it were.

Now for scientific endeavours, I think VR is the absolute dog's bollocks.
crunchyfrog 20 fev. 2021 às 14:28 
Originalmente postado por JohnChronic:
Originalmente postado por Miss Ann Thrope:
Yep. As an older gamer myself, I am very fond of sitting.

Even sitting is asking a bit much. I do most of my gaming laying down on a couch with a controller these days.

Fair point too.

Let's face it, many gamers of the age of having their own family and/or house, will relish in relaxing as much as possible.

For myself, I believe I've perfected the laying down and farting occasionally while gaming to a tee.
If there were an olynpic event of this, I'd be in with a shout.
🍋 Lemonfed 🍋 20 fev. 2021 às 14:43 
not just the price but if you consider VR games where you need to stand up and move around it's can take much more space then what a lot's of peoples can dedicate for it.

I have a relatively large appartment and yet I'd still have to move things around if I had a VR headset and wanted to play a stand up game.
crunchyfrog 20 fev. 2021 às 15:07 
Originalmente postado por Lemonfed:
not just the price but if you consider VR games where you need to stand up and move around it's can take much more space then what a lot's of peoples can dedicate for it.

I have a relatively large appartment and yet I'd still have to move things around if I had a VR headset and wanted to play a stand up game.
I knew there was another point I wanted to make in my laundry list. Thank you for reminding me.

I know there are many of us in places like Britain (or Japan, say) where this makes using them downright impossible.
Tito Shivan 20 fev. 2021 às 15:40 
Originalmente postado por crunchyfrog:
Your points are valid of course, but the thing that I would like to point out is that while it's true the kinks haven't been worked out. I'm wondering if they will EVER be worked out - that's the more glaring thing to me.
I didn't want to imply that, just that as a new medium we've just walked the very few first miles ina very, very long road which is to learn how to use VR as a storytelling device.
I like to use the analogy of us being at the same stage with VR as when the best use we had for TV was to broadcast theatre plays. Putting the TV spectator in the place of a theatre one, just like we now mostly seat the VR player at the viewpoint of the regular gamer.

I don't think it's a road with an end. We are still finding new ways around delivering storytelling through regular gaming. But we've walked a long walk since gaming was two moving bars bouncing a little square. We're at the VR stage of bouncing a square between two bars.

The core idea I want to transmit is to have something unfortunately gamers lack in excess: Patience and calm. This is just the start of the road of VR as a tech.

And yes, we maybe won't work out all the kinks of VR (I don't think we have done it with regular gaming) but expecting VR to blow the things out of the water right now is not managing patience and expectations.

Originalmente postado por crunchyfrog:
For example, concerning the Wii. Excellent example, as it soon worked out that people learned how to sit down and use the controllers. But then again, this was very much known at the outset as Nintendo (while they promoted the more athletic, family oritened standing up and playing) did know it was usable sat down.

I don't see the same for VR. Sure, it may be that the achilles' heel of not being able to move properly in game (compared to your other movement) will be solved or got round and a new avenue or even genre may be found, but the thing to remember is - this ain't release time. It's been around a number of years and it's pretty safe to say that nobody's got close to getting round this yet.
It's part of the learning process. At the end of the day maybe all that 'roomscale' concept will be something just for arcades and other industry applications and VR gaming will retreat to be another couch experience for general gaming.
And although this isn't 'release time' indeed, this tech hasn't had much mileage out of professional enviroments. It's been ten years since the HTC Vive and VR tried to do a real push into consumer territory. It took ten years to go from the Atari to the NES, but only five to reach the Superfanicom from there.

Originalmente postado por crunchyfrog:
As ever, you do make some very valid points. I'm just not as convinced it's going to end up any furhter "ahead", as it were.
Time will tell, I want to be optimistic.

Originalmente postado por crunchyfrog:
Now for scientific endeavours, I think VR is the absolute dog's bollocks.
First time I tried a headset two things blew my mind:
-Wow, some games are going to look great in VR.
-This has a crapload of utilities outside of gaming.

And it's the second one the thing that gets my hopes going for VR more than gaming. applications.

Originalmente postado por Lemonfed:
not just the price but if you consider VR games where you need to stand up and move around it's can take much more space then what a lot's of peoples can dedicate for it.
The other day saw someone joking how all the Nintendo TV ads always show these families living in a massive home and complaining about how his real life whole home fitted inside the living room shown in the ad.

A lot of VR talk right now is too imbued of this 'big concept' gaming ideas (Who doesn't want' to be a VR Jedi... Until you start hitting all your furniture and smashing your toes against the table) But whoever ultimately is going to make a home-run ball is the one who can deliver fun couch-friendly VR gaming. Not everyone is going to have room for roomscale VR gaming as not everyone had room for proper Kinect gaming.
crunchyfrog 20 fev. 2021 às 15:45 
Originalmente postado por Tito Shivan:
Originalmente postado por crunchyfrog:
Your points are valid of course, but the thing that I would like to point out is that while it's true the kinks haven't been worked out. I'm wondering if they will EVER be worked out - that's the more glaring thing to me.
I didn't want to imply that, just that as a new medium we've just walked the very few first miles ina very, very long road which is to learn how to use VR as a storytelling device.
I like to use the analogy of us being at the same stage with VR as when the best use we had for TV was to broadcast theatre plays. Putting the TV spectator in the place of a theatre one, just like we now mostly seat the VR player at the viewpoint of the regular gamer.

I don't think it's a road with an end. We are still finding new ways around delivering storytelling through regular gaming. But we've walked a long walk since gaming was two moving bars bouncing a little square. We're at the VR stage of bouncing a square between two bars.

The core idea I want to transmit is to have something unfortunately gamers lack in excess: Patience and calm. This is just the start of the road of VR as a tech.

And yes, we maybe won't work out all the kinks of VR (I don't think we have done it with regular gaming) but expecting VR to blow the things out of the water right now is not managing patience and expectations.

Originalmente postado por crunchyfrog:
For example, concerning the Wii. Excellent example, as it soon worked out that people learned how to sit down and use the controllers. But then again, this was very much known at the outset as Nintendo (while they promoted the more athletic, family oritened standing up and playing) did know it was usable sat down.

I don't see the same for VR. Sure, it may be that the achilles' heel of not being able to move properly in game (compared to your other movement) will be solved or got round and a new avenue or even genre may be found, but the thing to remember is - this ain't release time. It's been around a number of years and it's pretty safe to say that nobody's got close to getting round this yet.
It's part of the learning process. At the end of the day maybe all that 'roomscale' concept will be something just for arcades and other industry applications and VR gaming will retreat to be another couch experience for general gaming.
And although this isn't 'release time' indeed, this tech hasn't had much mileage out of professional enviroments. It's been ten years since the HTC Vive and VR tried to do a real push into consumer territory. It took ten years to go from the Atari to the NES, but only five to reach the Superfanicom from there.

Originalmente postado por crunchyfrog:
As ever, you do make some very valid points. I'm just not as convinced it's going to end up any furhter "ahead", as it were.
Time will tell, I want to be optimistic.

Originalmente postado por crunchyfrog:
Now for scientific endeavours, I think VR is the absolute dog's bollocks.
First time I tried a headset two things blew my mind:
-Wow, some games are going to look great in VR.
-This has a crapload of utilities outside of gaming.

And it's the second one the thing that gets my hopes going for VR more than gaming. applications.

Originalmente postado por Lemonfed:
not just the price but if you consider VR games where you need to stand up and move around it's can take much more space then what a lot's of peoples can dedicate for it.
The other day saw someone joking how all the Nintendo TV ads always show these families living in a massive home and complaining about how his real life whole home fitted inside the living room shown in the ad.

A lot of VR talk right now is too imbued of this 'big concept' gaming ideas (Who doesn't want' to be a VR Jedi... Until you start hitting all your furniture and smashing your toes against the table) But whoever ultimately is going to make a home-run ball is the one who can deliver fun couch-friendly VR gaming. Not everyone is going to have room for roomscale VR gaming as not everyone had room for proper Kinect gaming.

Oh in that respect, I dig that and absolutely agree.

I welcome and indeed relish seeing where this goes.

Who knows? Maybe the next invention is just round the corner that moves things on further. It'a fair point about TV and the early days.

I do think that as per usual the industry did rather run before it could walk though. I don't want to, but I do always recall the many times 3D has been pushed every time something "new" comes around.

But then, I'm stating the obvious here...
Tito Shivan 21 fev. 2021 às 2:08 
Originalmente postado por crunchyfrog:
I do think that as per usual the industry did rather run before it could walk though. I don't want to, but I do always recall the many times 3D has been pushed every time something "new" comes around.
At least this iteration of VR-gaming has lasted longer than the last iteration of 3D-Cinema. :lunar2020gigglemonkey:
crunchyfrog 21 fev. 2021 às 14:15 
Originalmente postado por Tito Shivan:
Originalmente postado por crunchyfrog:
I do think that as per usual the industry did rather run before it could walk though. I don't want to, but I do always recall the many times 3D has been pushed every time something "new" comes around.
At least this iteration of VR-gaming has lasted longer than the last iteration of 3D-Cinema. :lunar2020gigglemonkey:
Oh dear God, I hear you there.

I've often made joke that here in Britain we have an excellent film ratings guide.

PG means parental guidance or watchable if you have parents in attendance.
15 means you need to be 15 or older
18 means you need to be 17 or older
and 3D means the film is absolute ♥♥♥♥.
:)

Personally, I find every time they try to roll out 3D again, it gets more and more desperate and I take a perverse pleasure in watching some of the marketing excuses.
🍋 Lemonfed 🍋 21 fev. 2021 às 14:26 
they started experimenting with mind Reading VR tech , so maybe in a certain future you'l be able to walk around using your mind.

but for the moment it's still very primitive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMXfyZc_Gvg
Última alteração por 🍋 Lemonfed 🍋; 21 fev. 2021 às 14:51
crunchyfrog 21 fev. 2021 às 14:27 
Originalmente postado por Lemonfed:
they started experimenting with mind Reading VR tech , so maybe in a certain future you'l be able to walk around using your mind.

but for the moment it's still very primitive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMXfyZc_Gvg

Gimme this for my wheelchair and I'm in!

Although, not so much for me (that'd be cool and all), but I want to plug my cat into it and see where they take it (a la that goldfish powered robot often seen on video).
Última alteração por crunchyfrog; 21 fev. 2021 às 14:28
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Todas as discussões > Fóruns Steam > Off Topic > Detalhes do tópico
Postado a: 17 fev. 2021 às 7:36
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