Is a game bad if it requires a wiki to play?

[Rio]

What do you think.

[Rio]

引用自 Mona Lizzard：

Imagine being a kid playing Minecraft for the first time in early alpha. Those were wild, untamed times. Back then I was lucky to play Minecraft at like 14 fps.

Still to this day we try to make fences and fence gates with the old recipies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67jM8nO7Ag

[kbm phantom.♡]

引用自 Mona Lizzard：

Imagine being a kid playing Minecraft for the first time in early alpha. Those were wild, untamed times. Back then I was lucky to play Minecraft at like 14 fps.

I loved playing Minecraft Classic Online on a browser back then.

[kbm phantom.♡]

On the topic, I usually prefer to go on a wiki and search what I need to know rather than the game giving you unskippable tutorials or feeding you too much information.
I swear some games treat you like it's your first time touching a video game.

[Midnight Sky ✨🌙✨]

You absolutely shouldn't need a wiki for the basics, but otherwise a good game can still need it if there's just too much ♥♥♥♥ to keep track of.

[AD]

No, but it increases the entry barrier. Can still be worth it, though (although I can't remember playing a game I needed a wiki for, closest thing would be Fallout 1 and possibly Fallout 2 and I absolutely love those games)

[Electric Cupcake]

引用自 Radene：

引用自 MoJean：

well minecraft has a wiki. and that game is pretty simple and very popular

But you can play MC without ever touching the wiki.

In theory.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbqkLu2V1bJJUQ2aLZjFdz8decGs1kHg-

This lad played through without any guides or comment spoilers, figuring everything out, from redstone circuits to enchanting to village management to ender eyes with trial and error and using the in-game advancements tree. He did ask for a hint in figuring out how to make a nether portal, and some Minecraft developers watch the series, because they eventually added the ruined netherportals showing up in the overworld to give a hint as to how to make them, since it's very unlikely anyone would figure it out in a vacuum.

However, Nana-kun does have a rather unique play style as a result of not getting ideas from other people. Emphasis on deep quarry pits instead of the more common branching strip mines, and lots of sky bridges and floating bases. And the way he finally defeated the Ender Dragon and Wither was rather unorthodox.

[swillfly]

Some of the most enjoyable (and longest lasting) games I've ever played had so much going on that a wiki is almost essential but ultimately very worthwhile.

[crunchyfrog]

Games are art by nature (and varying degrees).

So no, this means there's no particular rules to speak of outside of a few generic definitions. So if someone designs a game to be used this way, it's still very much a game, and maybe a good one at that for thinking outside the box a bit.

Plus that point about Terraria needing a wiki is demonstrable crap.

I've never read a wiki on it, and I can happily come back to it now a few years after and toddle through it bit by bit - it makes everything easy to learn. You're just supposed to explore and use trial and error. That's the whole POINT of the game.

So I guess that summarizes another point - is it poor design if you're not getting or playing the game how it was designed? I'd token that's more a YOU thing.

[Tito Shivan]

引用自 crunchyfrog：

So I guess that summarizes another point - is it poor design if you're not getting or playing the game how it was designed? I'd token that's more a YOU thing.

Poor game design can be actually measured though.

One example mentioned earlier was Minecraft's nether portals. You need to construct a specific structure of a specific material to access a chunk of the game content but nowhere was it hinted.
In that regard Minecraft has been a special offender as it relied a lot on people joining the game having 'meta' knowledge of it (Having seen streams of people playing it and whatnot) It was never designed with the idea of someone jumping in blind like many other games.
So in a sense it behaved like a TV show which required you to read the books in order to fully enjoy it.

Another example I remember as I played the game a lot was Payday 2. There's a 'narrator' sort of guiding you through the game levels. However there's a specific level that requires you to mix ingredients in an order given to you by the narrator. Thing is in this very case it could give you the wrong ingredient (by mistake), leading to you 'failing' the mission.
The problem is the game never gave the players the queue that said information could be misleading (Which only happens at this very specific level)... It was later acknowlegded and the voice acting changed to adress this, but for a good time it lead to a trail of people asking why they were failing.

[snlᴉʇnɐNɔᴉɯsoƆ]

引用自 Tito Shivan：

引用自 crunchyfrog：

So I guess that summarizes another point - is it poor design if you're not getting or playing the game how it was designed? I'd token that's more a YOU thing.

Poor game design can be actually measured though.

One example mentioned earlier was Minecraft's nether portals. You need to construct a specific structure of a specific material to access a chunk of the game content but nowhere was it hinted.
In that regard Minecraft has been a special offender as it relied a lot on people joining the game having 'meta' knowledge of it (Having seen streams of people playing it and whatnot) It was never designed with the idea of someone jumping in blind like many other games.
So in a sense it behaved like a TV show which required you to read the books in order to fully enjoy it.

This is one of the reasons I never got into it.

[🍋 Lemonfed 🍋]

yeah sometime it is, some older games used to throw super complex puzzles so you would just go out and buy guides or magazines because in some case there was no way that most peoples could figure out the solution.

but that always depend on why and what you need the guide for , if it's some things that are meant to be kind of secret then it's can be justifiable in a lot's of case.

[Sinister80s]

引用自 Mona Lizzard：

引用自 Radene：

But you can play MC without ever touching the wiki.

Yeah... NOW you can.

Before you start in a world left to your own devices figuring out how to craft a portal to the Nether. Or how to craft a boat.

A really long time ago when I was young I didn't really have any internet access, so for Minecraft I would purchase books and get knowledge from friends to learn how to play. I liked it.

I also didn't know how to break blocks when I first played Minecraft. I just spammed my mouse button thinking that would work.

[Gmak2442]

I think this kind of manual can be acceptable. Especially for the members of The Régime. But when you reach a certain point, I think the game is better be more than that. Like manual in overlay.

[sweetDarkness]

No, I would not call it bad, but complicated. Some games do require a bit of research in order to get better tactics (or tactics at all). But of course if you'd rather play something else entirely, then chances are it's a bad game.

[Awaken]

Definitely