Linux Mint, Manjaro or?

[Utiviroo]

Hi!

Both of them claim to have emulator/API frame works or what ever the correct technical term is for running windows Apps without running windows.

One of them mentions the possibility of running a virtual machine with windows what ever edition within it.

So the general question is, what rough performance hit is there for running an OS inside a VM under Linux and does it generally get as close as one would hope to full compatibility to run the apps or don't need to worry about it as the non VM way works pretty good these days?

I'd rather skip the dual/multi boot setup.

Pretty much looking at the Windows 7 or Windows XP (95%) and a few MS-DOS/Win 3.xx type games, some of which are definitely not on Steam but with the added question of, are there virtual machines that emulate slower hardware as I recall there were a good number of games from 386/486 era that run at inhuman speed on anything "686" or faster.

Last I dabbled with Linux was probably around 2006 and Red Hat stuff so I don't have an issue with some command line stuff but it sounds like the two I mentioned are pretty user friendly in comparison.

So hopefully someone from the 2% that use, can advise, am not really looking for which is best; though I would like to know are both the sort of OS that needs hardware to be out for a year or six months before driver support gets good enough or have things become a bit quicker than I vaguely recall back in the day and its generally safe to get hardware that has only been out on retail for a few months?

Thanks.

[N3tRunn3r]

Debian
https://www.debian.org/

Linux Mint Debian Edition (LMDE5)
https://linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php

Proton
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton

There also exist 2 very leightweighted tools (~2mb) to run any DOS and 16-bit software on any 64-bit system. Open Source, semi-portable, fully emulates 16-bit environment, no need to install and run any heavy VM's anymore. No Win7 need anymore. Straight execute games/software via double-click just like latest software of today.

[Omega]

WINE is a compatibility layer and open source clone of Windows libraries, this is what Linux distros use to run Windows applications.

The performance when compared to Windows will highly depend, sometimes its faster, sometimes it is slower and other times it is about the same.

The main concern is software compatibility, many pieces of software work just fine, but some may have issues.

Nowadays it is as simple as installing WINE and running your Windows program, it will automatically start the program up in WINE.


There is also Crossover which is a paid version of WINE, and Steam includes Proton to run Windows games which is a gaming optimized WINE shipping a few extra components such as DXVK for Direct3D to Vulkan translation.

[CJM]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Utiviroo:

Hi!

Both of them claim to have emulator/API frame works or what ever the correct technical term is for running windows Apps without running windows.

One of them mentions the possibility of running a virtual machine with windows what ever edition within it.

It is Linux, all of them support it. Just the most popular ones have already compiled the software and put it in their Repositories (App Stores).

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Utiviroo:

So the general question is, what rough performance hit is there for running an OS inside a VM under Linux and does it generally get as close as one would hope to full compatibility to run the apps or don't need to worry about it as the non VM way works pretty good these days?

VMs take a rather large hit, and 3D Rendering support is iffy.

Wine/Proton has more in common with DirectX than a Virtual Machine. It is a Hardware Abstraction Layer (HAL), more so than a virtualized or emulated hardware stack.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Utiviroo:

Last I dabbled with Linux was probably around 2006 and Red Hat stuff

Fedora might be closer to your speed, it is Red Hat for home users. Red Hat's cutting edge branch.

Steam OS 3 is based on Arch, as is Manjaro.

If you want to try Debian, Ubuntu is still pretty much king of the Debian distributions. Linux Mint is a smaller branch off of Ubuntu.

[skOsH♥]

Manjaro is Arch but hand holding a bit

Mint is if you want a little easier time

Although I picked up Manjaro just fine and custom building kernels isn't hard after the experience I got from it

Also the performance "hit" is almost nil. It's basically just as good because Linux uses barely any RAM

[lightwo]

The features you mentioned aren't unique to any distribution.

As for performant VM gaming, it's possible but not trivial, especially for a beginner, and you're best off having both a GPU and an integrated GPU to use. I say it isn't worth doing since Proton runs most games well, and is basically representative of the state of Steam Deck.

[DonMcK]

I went with Linux Mint Cinnamon, had some problems but the amount of help on the web is amazing. My PC is dual boot - Win 10 and Linux, but I tend to spend most of the time in Linux (currently playing Borderlands The Pre-Sequel, Crysis (GOG version) and Metro LL Redux).

Steam games are relatively easy to download and play courtesy of Proton, Lutris helped with Crysis and Crysis Warhead ( for some reason they needed different Wine distro's). There is a learning curve, some trial and error, but I'd say it's worth it.

Tried 45+ games so far, includes Doom 2 and 3; Quake 1, 2 and 4 and Blood (you asked about older games). DosBox is there for the really old stuff

[Utiviroo]

I think between the six of you, you have managed to cover almost everything. So thank you all.

Only item left is, what is the lead time on driver support for new hardware, I will doing a complete from scratch build when I get round to it. Does it still trail windows support by 6-12 months or is it pretty much day one to month one these days.

In that vein any particular motherboard makers I should avoid or go for as a brand reputation thing with respect to Linux support. Mostly the other integrated stuff like LAN, Sound, USB and WiFi.

I'll definitely be setting up with both integrated and add in graphics, the APU I'd like to buy probably releases in 2H 2023, unless it gets delayed, again. In which case I go with last gen.

[lightwo]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Utiviroo:

I'll definitely be setting up with both integrated and add in graphics, the APU I'd like to buy probably releases in 2H 2023, unless it gets delayed, again. In which case I go with last gen.

By the way, I forgot to mention that the reason for 2 GPUs (one of which may be part of APU) is that it's simpler to set up so that the host primarily uses one, and the guest (VM) has the dedicated one passed through for the best performance and simplicity. It's possible to switch the same GPU as well, but allegedly it's significantly more complicated, and in the end, doesn't amount to much more than dual-booting.

I haven't tried VM gaming because it isn't trivial to set up and I don't want to run Windows 10 by any means, but especially because I found Proton gaming excellent as-is. It should be noted that not all anti-cheat, and possibly DRM solutions have been made to work on Proton (some not working only because the publisher hasn't chosen so), but depending on the kind of games you play, it could suffice. After all, the performance is close to or surpasses DirectX+Windows, and overall, compatibility is solid.

Lastly, while NVIDIA GPUs might seem more performant on paper, the experience running AMD's open source drivers is less cumbersome (much better than on Windows), and don't forget about power consumption and less extreme prices. They're not there yet to handle fully path-traced games, but I haven't found that to be an issue.

[Squared]

"Drivers" in Linux are usually added to the Linux kernel, so if you want to run bleeding-edge hardware, then you probably need the latest Linux kernel. Arch is always updated with the latest versions of its components (which I believe is the biggest reason why the Steam Deck OS is Arch-based). Manjaro should be pretty close behind Arch so it'll probably work on new hardware. I'm running Pop_OS! and it's on kernel 6.4 (released June 25) and the latest is 6.5. I'm not sure where Ubuntu and Mint land but I would expect them to be a little further behind, and the Debian-based Mint to be a lot further behind. You could also manually update the kernel. I've never done that so I don't have any insight on it.

[DonMcK]

Linux Mint 21.2 Kernel 5.15

Just to update my earlier post from March, still on Mint and have moved most of my Steam Games and all of my EA games, Mint is now my main systen Just playing Battlefield V at the mo' and at 1440p Ultra quality it is very playable indeed.

Sorting out any issues is almost more fun than playing the games.

[Thermal Lance]

Performance-wise. I had great result with Pop_Os!, EndeavourOS and Nobara. If you are new to linux or unexperienced, id go for pop_os. You can't go wrong with that one.

[Vince ✟]

I'm enjoying Fedora Design Suite

https://labs.fedoraproject.org/en/design-suite/

[Utiviroo]

Blast from the past, since my 770 GTX died about 2 weeks after I first posted this thread...

I ended up downgrading to 9400 GT (surprised it still worked, 15 year old card), in the middle I switched from win7 to Manjaro 6.1 LTS full time/daily driver etc (mid April) and got an AMD 7600 around June which forced me to jump to Kernel 6.3 as 6.1 was not patched at the time for 7600 support out the box.

I think 6.1 has 7600 support out the box now, its been back ported or what ever the term is.

Right now I am Manjaro 6.5, 6.6 is available in experimental for Manjaro at the time of this post, but am not tech savvy enough to play with experimental builds so one behind suits me fine.

Most stuff has worked fine that I care about. I was going to try a bunch of Linux distros in turn, like everyone suggested, but first hit stuck so... no real complaints, learning curve was fairly small.

The update process and fixing things when they don't go quite right, all I can suggest to new people, wait a few days before hitting update and check forums for work a rounds for common issues specific to that update, if they happen to you, nine out of ten so far, updates have been issue free or so minor they not worth noting, which to me is better than windows experience, so far.

[SimicEngineer]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Utiviroo:

Only item left is, what is the lead time on driver support for new hardware, I will doing a complete from scratch build when I get round to it. Does it still trail windows support by 6-12 months or is it pretty much day one to month one these days.

For CPU/chipset/GPU, support is typically day one in the upstream projects (Linux/Mesa), but different distros have different policies for upgrading those. Arch-based and Fedora-based distros are some of the best for keeping up with new hardware support by default, but the slower distros (e.g. Debian, Ubuntu, Mint) have some method to install a newer kernel and Mesa (or Nvidia) stack, it's just a bit more work and slightly higher risk of something going wrong with package versions being incompatible.

The major place where Linux still trails Windows significantly is breadth of Wi-Fi hardware support, especially for adapters newer than 802.11n (which are still readily available, but not really mainstream anymore). Intel adapters are generally supported very quickly.

Another area that tends to lag the latest hardware is control for custom fan curves, fan/temperature monitoring, and ARGB. Support usually exists in some form, but it might require the installation of a third-party driver or might not support all features of the hardware.

More specialized hardware is hit-or-miss depending on how much of the user base is expected to be on Linux and (for lack of a better description) how "corporate" the community around it is. In a few cases Linux actually has better support than Windows, but it's pretty common for there to be a lag, missing features, limited compatibility (e.g. the vendor supplies a driver, but it's only tested with the kernel for a particular RHEL version), or unofficial support that only exists because of one highly determined user who might move on to other things at any time.

[Utiviroo]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από SimicEngineer:

Another area that tends to lag the latest hardware is control for custom fan curves, fan/temperature monitoring, and ARGB. Support usually exists in some form, but it might require the installation of a third-party driver or might not support all features of the hardware.

After watching all the review sites during Q2 2023 having a wall of criticism for;

1. AMD (exploding CPU or melting) and the 3rd party Mobo makers for doing things out of "safe" spec and not informing people etc. or warranty shenanigans etc.
2. Intel for making super hot and power hungry CPUs that necessitated huge or powerful cooling systems, or melt/burn like the AMD chips, some of which was again due to 3rd party Mobo makers doing things out of "safe" spec.
3. NVIDIA for their top of the line super expensive GPU melting or burning on their power connector issues.

All of which have now been resolved or worked around, mostly, but at the time, totally put me off getting a full new setup.

I have read about 6.6 or 6.7 Kernel might have better fan curve support out the box, rather than 3rd party, not read anything about ARGB stuff, but the 3rd party makers of the actual hardware kit do need to standardize that gear so everyone can have great tweak/control software.

4. PSU quality/cables being more important than ever due to where things have trended in terms of hardware power consumption/timing control on new PCI 5 spec stuff.

Got the impression COVID has somehow also created a situation where the quality of the hardware in this area has dropped significantly, that or the spec's are just pushing the limits of engineering/manufacturing too hard already and stuff needs to mature, or hit the technology/reality wall and innovation is done, we are in the toaster era of computing.

Maybe by 2028 or when ever it happens, this stuff will be all ancient history and I can get an APU that does it all, or what ever the term is for the CPU/GPU/AI; system on a chip path we seem to be going down, putting in my request for 4090 in 4x or 8x SLI performance in SoC so CPU included, 75W power draw at max for $300, no exotic cooling needed.

Won't have to buy a new computer for the next 25-50 years with something like that, out side of it breaking. So I know they won't do it, if they could; forced obsolescence mantra. Sort of feels like we already at the don't really need to upgrade for 15-20 years at time phase if we just sticking with 1080p instead of reaching for 4K or 8K gaming. Oh well...

Anyway, seems like exciting times for Linux desktop, tons of things being actively developed/supported/funded for it.