sudopacman 2021 年 12 月 19 日 下午 12:01
Gaming on Linux still sucks massive ass
There is nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise, I just came here to rant.

I've used Arch Linux for nearly ten years now, I'm no slouch. In the past few years I've heard about all these great improvements, proton et al... what a farce. It doesn't seem to support any major games on Linux, at the very least not over Steam Play.

It has taken me 3 days to get an AMD card working (RX 6600), then it took another two to get an Xbox One controller working over bluetooth.

♥♥♥♥ anyone who says gaming on Linux is not a complete an utter waste of time and energy. All of this tinkering I don't mind doing, but I want to see an outcome.

The only game I can play is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Portal AND THE ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ RADIAL CONTROL INVERSION DOESN'T WORK!!!

The new SteamOS is being actively developed and the client STILL sucks ♥♥♥♥ on Arch. Like wtf is it going to take? How much effort? How much screaming into the void must we do to get Linux gaming dragged into the 21st ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ century... and before anyone says anything about the intrinsic nature of games on Linux: you're wrong. There is NO REASON why games cannot or should not work on Linux.
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目前顯示第 16-30 則留言,共 129
Turbo6MTawD 2021 年 12 月 19 日 下午 10:47 
引用自 Dr StrangeGlove
I have a dual boot windows/linux setip
Windows is for gaming only.
The games situation with linux is still not ready, especially with anti cheat software.

I am hoping the steam deck will force anti cheat software to play nice with linux.

Linux does have a lot of benefits over windows. Gaming is not one of them.

Best setup is to dual boot. I mainly use Windows for gaming and Linux for everything else. Windows is basically spyware to me at this point. Their whole "telemetry" is a huge invasion of privacy to me.
Lord Flashheart 2021 年 12 月 19 日 下午 11:17 
引用自 Turbo6MTawD
引用自 Dr StrangeGlove
I have a dual boot windows/linux setip
Windows is for gaming only.
The games situation with linux is still not ready, especially with anti cheat software.

I am hoping the steam deck will force anti cheat software to play nice with linux.

Linux does have a lot of benefits over windows. Gaming is not one of them.

Best setup is to dual boot. I mainly use Windows for gaming and Linux for everything else. Windows is basically spyware to me at this point. Their whole "telemetry" is a huge invasion of privacy to me.

Yes. Windows is spyware. I have my old machine now as home server. On there amongst other things is pihole blocking 1.8 million sites/domains.
75% of the blocks are from windows machines. I barely do any web browsing in windows.
The rest are apparently web browsing blocks through linux.
Haruspex 2021 年 12 月 19 日 下午 11:54 
I won't disagree.

However gaming on Linux is much, much better than it used to be. I'm surprised how many games I tried "just worked". In a few instances, they actually worked better through Proton than they did natively in Windows. (Doom Eternal and Dead Space.)

Still, I'm back on Windows again. I was happily buzzing along using Kubuntu when I had a hankering to play the first Rage. Nope. Incompatible. I wanted to play Doom 2016, which is rated Platinum on ProtonDB and has Valve's official seal of approval. Continuous crashes. I would be able to play between 10 seconds and 30 minutes. I wanted to use RPG Maker 2003, which is the last version of RPG Maker to natively use a SNES-like 320x240 resolution. It works, but I had to minimize and maximize it any time I entered the database.

It's just these little things that chip away at my patience. It adds up, until finally I tell myself "I wouldn't have to deal with any of this on Windows."

I do think gaming on Linux is good enough that when I get my Steam Deck, I'll keep SteamOS 3.0 on there. It's a much more gaming focused device, unlike my other PCs that I use for everything. Most my games will work, and the ones that don't aren't a big deal. If I really want to play those I'll use my Windows machines.

At the very least I want to encourage this ongoing improvement. The better gaming on Linux is, the more people will use it. The more people use it, the more support it gets. The more support it gets, the better gaming on Linux becomes, and so on.
max 2021 年 12 月 20 日 上午 1:09 
引用自 Turbo6MTawD
Only way that gets resolved is if Microsoft makes it open source (which they won't because money), or, someone big like Apple makes an open source competitor to get the games on MacOS.

Apple? Thanks for the laugh mate :D They are more or less the last company that will make anything meaningful open source.
They did make their own graphics API (Metal), DX12 compared to that is like an open source project...

Anyway, why would open sourcing DX help with anything?
1. These WINE forks effectively implement DX on Linux ecosystem, how an open implementation on Windows will help with that? Besides that, Vulkan doesn't have any shared source code at all, so it further begs the question of why having source code to API matters?
2. Modern game engines are not written against a specific API. There's some low level layer that interfaces to the API, that's it. You can interface to most APIs assuming they're reasonable. Vulkan is kind of reasonable (most of the time), so an engine that supports DX12 will support Vulkan as well with not a lot of effort.
3. Microsoft released their shader compiler as open source, which is by FAR more important than open sourcing the API itself. Did it help in any significant way? Nope, people are just too arrogant, lazy or stupid (sometimes combination) to use this as a tool to improve the ecosystem. They rather develop their own stupid compiler that doesn't work or do some other random ♥♥♥♥ no one cares about.

Things that are really missing on Linux and are a real problem:
1. Developer tools. Developing software on Linux, compared to Windows, is painful on so many levels. And when you start doing graphics it gets even worse! Developing anything graphics related on Linux is kind of masochism. The only realistic way to do it, is to develop on Windows with Vulkan target, then do some adjustments and recompile on Linux. Works most of the time, but then to support it after release? Not gonna happen before the tools improve.
2. Developer mindset. People who develop the "tools" on Linux, assume that every person who is going to use these tools is going to study their source code and learn the quirks of it, compile it, fix bugs, participate on forums and etc. Yeah, as if game developers don't have anything better to do. This btw, is not only about developer tools, nearly everything on Linux is developed as if the person that is going to use it will also go around hacking the code.
3. Vulkan itself is a problem. People there decide on new features in some voting process, yeah whatever, that doesn't work unless your goal is to play catch-up with DX. Why would competitors (companies that vote on feature inclusion) agree on anything but the most trivial things? The way to go is to have a standalone decision process for improving the API, no voting from vendors. Vendor A can't support feature X? Sucks to be vendor A... Right now the situation is, sucks for feature X, so vendor A can 100% ignore this complex feature X and never implement it, so in the end, the API suffers. And no, vendor specific extensions is not the answer (no one wants to use them).
最後修改者:max; 2021 年 12 月 20 日 上午 1:11
Turbo6MTawD 2021 年 12 月 20 日 上午 4:23 
引用自 max
引用自 Turbo6MTawD
Only way that gets resolved is if Microsoft makes it open source (which they won't because money), or, someone big like Apple makes an open source competitor to get the games on MacOS.

Apple? Thanks for the laugh mate :D They are more or less the last company that will make anything meaningful open source.
They did make their own graphics API (Metal), DX12 compared to that is like an open source project...

Anyway, why would open sourcing DX help with anything?
1. These WINE forks effectively implement DX on Linux ecosystem, how an open implementation on Windows will help with that? Besides that, Vulkan doesn't have any shared source code at all, so it further begs the question of why having source code to API matters?
2. Modern game engines are not written against a specific API. There's some low level layer that interfaces to the API, that's it. You can interface to most APIs assuming they're reasonable. Vulkan is kind of reasonable (most of the time), so an engine that supports DX12 will support Vulkan as well with not a lot of effort.
3. Microsoft released their shader compiler as open source, which is by FAR more important than open sourcing the API itself. Did it help in any significant way? Nope, people are just too arrogant, lazy or stupid (sometimes combination) to use this as a tool to improve the ecosystem. They rather develop their own stupid compiler that doesn't work or do some other random ♥♥♥♥ no one cares about.

Things that are really missing on Linux and are a real problem:
1. Developer tools. Developing software on Linux, compared to Windows, is painful on so many levels. And when you start doing graphics it gets even worse! Developing anything graphics related on Linux is kind of masochism. The only realistic way to do it, is to develop on Windows with Vulkan target, then do some adjustments and recompile on Linux. Works most of the time, but then to support it after release? Not gonna happen before the tools improve.
2. Developer mindset. People who develop the "tools" on Linux, assume that every person who is going to use these tools is going to study their source code and learn the quirks of it, compile it, fix bugs, participate on forums and etc. Yeah, as if game developers don't have anything better to do. This btw, is not only about developer tools, nearly everything on Linux is developed as if the person that is going to use it will also go around hacking the code.
3. Vulkan itself is a problem. People there decide on new features in some voting process, yeah whatever, that doesn't work unless your goal is to play catch-up with DX. Why would competitors (companies that vote on feature inclusion) agree on anything but the most trivial things? The way to go is to have a standalone decision process for improving the API, no voting from vendors. Vendor A can't support feature X? Sucks to be vendor A... Right now the situation is, sucks for feature X, so vendor A can 100% ignore this complex feature X and never implement it, so in the end, the API suffers. And no, vendor specific extensions is not the answer (no one wants to use them).

I'm not holding my breath either, but what about Webkit and contributions to LLVM? The chances aren't zero, but it's always a possibility if it'll benefit MacOS.
sudopacman 2021 年 12 月 20 日 上午 5:40 
引用自 Satoru
引用自 rawWwRrr
You are right. It should work on Linux

Note steam only officially supports Ubuntu as the client as that's their primary testing platform. Steam isn't going to test and support every nonsensical flavor of Linux that every dark corner of the internet insists is the 'better' version

Pepole like the OP are the main reason why devs hate supporting Linux. It takes order of magnitude more energy and resources to support, but the playerbase is so toxic that most devs really begin to question the value of enduring this kind of nonsense for basically no sales

LOL I'm one of the devs you silly person... Microsoft and hardware manufacturers deliberately sabotaging or not dedicating resources to gaming in particular are the reason it has failed. The community have put in a HUGE investment and the market share for gaming on Linux is growing, not to mention Linux runs on EVERYTHING.

Even Microsoft have implement a Linux shell (and managed to ♥♥♥♥ that up unsurprisingly), Amazon and Google both contribute oodles of code to the kernel.

It sucks because we're all still stuck in 1998. Linux has great potential, but people won't open source basic functionality which doesn't threaten their business model.

Also, Linux is made for gaming... what do you think Stadia was developed on?
sudopacman 2021 年 12 月 20 日 上午 5:41 
引用自 Satoru
Arch Linux users are apparently now trying to take “most annoying userbase” away from Ubuntu I guess. If it’s not turnkey it’s just screaming into the void about everything now

https://steamcommunity.com/app/221410/discussions/

Feel free to ask in the actual Linux forums

Yeh 3 days of tinkering to get nothing working properly is not expecting turnkey but go off
sudopacman 2021 年 12 月 20 日 上午 5:49 
引用自 Turbo6MTawD
引用自 Mind
It isn't the OS. It's the fact that MS is a monopoly and game engine developers focus on Windows and DX. We're talking big money closed source proprietary versus free open source. Linux is superior in many ways, but it isn't the platform to make money on applications in the PC market (unrestricted technology).

Exactly this. DirectX is the biggest obstacle to gaming on Linux ever being truly viable. Only way that gets resolved is if Microsoft makes it open source (which they won't because money), or, someone big like Apple makes an open source competitor to get the games on MacOS.

Which is kinda weird tbh because there is no reasonable business logic behind keeping it closed source. Microsoft Windows Client makes up such a small portion of their market share in terms of income, ESPECIALLY from gamers. They make money by supporting old versions for governments and large organizations, much like Oracle with Java. Besides that the industries that would threaten their business by using another OS still require Microsoft turnkey and simply wouldn't make the change out of intellectual burden.

This is what makes me angry, there is no reason for this... it's senseless, even from a pessimistic pov where I accept the commercial reality in all it's greed (which I do): it still does not make any sense.
GOD RAYS ON ULTRA™ 2021 年 12 月 20 日 上午 5:56 
Try pop os. Pretty much every steam game works through proton. There's different versions of proton too if one isn't working.
AbedsBrother 2021 年 12 月 20 日 上午 6:14 
引用自 sudopacman
It has taken me 3 days to get an AMD card working (RX 6600)
How? Why?

引用自 sudopacman
The only game I can play is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Portal
Linux gaming is definitely not what it's cracked up to be, but if all you can play is Portal you're doing something wrong.
[N]ebsun 2021 年 12 月 20 日 上午 6:46 
引用自 Satoru
引用自 rawWwRrr
You are right. It should work on Linux

Note steam only officially supports Ubuntu as the client as that's their primary testing platform. Steam isn't going to test and support every nonsensical flavor of Linux that every dark corner of the internet insists is the 'better' version

Pepole like the OP are the main reason why devs hate supporting Linux. It takes order of magnitude more energy and resources to support, but the playerbase is so toxic that most devs really begin to question the value of enduring this kind of nonsense for basically no sales

Do they still support Ubuntu ??

https://steamcommunity.com/app/221410/discussions/0/1640915206447625383/
Following that announcement, we made a statement that Ubuntu 19.10 wouldn't be officially supported or recommended to our users going forward.
...
The Linux landscape has changed dramatically since we released the initial version of Steam for Linux, and as such, we are re-thinking how we want to approach distribution support going forward. There are several distributions on the market today that offer a great gaming desktop experience such as Arch Linux, Manjaro, Pop!_OS, Fedora, and many others.

I thought they moved on to Arch

[edit]

seems they do still officially only support Ubuntu LTS
最後修改者:[N]ebsun; 2021 年 12 月 20 日 上午 6:51
Scheneighnay 2021 年 12 月 20 日 上午 8:25 
Linux's single biggest problem is its community, which will always insist their distro is perfect and that every flaw is some 3rd party's fault and there's nothing left to improve.

Meanwhile the developers focus on adding gimmicks instead of fixing glaring issues.

Valve is the only competent Linux developer, change my mind.
最後修改者:Scheneighnay; 2021 年 12 月 20 日 上午 8:26
WarnerCK 2021 年 12 月 20 日 上午 8:40 
引用自 sudopacman
Which is kinda weird tbh because there is no reasonable business logic behind keeping it closed source. Microsoft Windows Client makes up such a small portion of their market share in terms of income, ESPECIALLY from gamers.
It's not about money, it's about control; DirectX is one of several moats intended to make using non-Microsoft tools painful (document formats being another prominent example). Microsoft feel that people wouldn't choose to use Microsoft things, so they need to be coerced. Microsoft put up as many barriers as they can to prevent any alternative from getting critical mass.
sudopacman 2021 年 12 月 20 日 上午 9:09 
引用自 AbedsBrother
引用自 sudopacman
It has taken me 3 days to get an AMD card working (RX 6600)
How? Why?

引用自 sudopacman
The only game I can play is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Portal
Linux gaming is definitely not what it's cracked up to be, but if all you can play is Portal you're doing something wrong.

Over steam play. Doom, Halo, Destiny, all crash on launch. No logs. It just became too painful. I was probably doing something wrong but I did try a LOT of stuff as usual. I ended up switching to Windows and it's still got some ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ case in point: https://steamcommunity.com/groups/homestream/discussions/0/1696049513769785227/

Super dumb in the bum. Why support an entire ecosystem then have stupid remote access workarounds for a common platform? Stuff like that is why I avoid Windows. At least Linux has a resource and culture excuse, Microsoft are just retarded.
sudopacman 2021 年 12 月 20 日 上午 9:14 
引用自 Scheneighnay
Linux's single biggest problem is its community, which will always insist their distro is perfect and that every flaw is some 3rd party's fault and there's nothing left to improve.

Meanwhile the developers focus on adding gimmicks instead of fixing glaring issues.

I too am sick of the fart-sniffing uppity nonsense in Linux. Though, and this is ironic, the Arch community are actually one of the most helpful. They're a little brutal at times but if you give them the right info they will help you. I have had so many issues over the years and there are two specific ppl on the forums that consistently come to my aid (and won't take my money despite my insistence).

Valve is the only competent Linux developer, change my mind.

Ooft them's fightin words lol... systemd, Xorg foundation, netctl, (endless list of utilities here including curl, core-utils etc)... as a SYSTEM it's fantastic, as a DESKTOP its ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ awful haha
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張貼日期: 2021 年 12 月 19 日 下午 12:01
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