The unspoken reason for the decline in video game quality.

[fumzuck1]

I am not saying that "early access" is to blame ...
I am saying that steam and other places that host these need to stop allowing them to monetize them. If its "early access" EVERYTHING ABOUT IT till release of the "live"game should be free.
It would cut back on the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ games that rip off companies have been throwing out just to make fast money then shut down or ... in cases like Just survive take a game you paid for and not compensate or refund because it was "early access" years old but somehow early access ...
Take away the cost of the game and money made from dlc till its not "early access" and you will see a big improvement in gaming .

[Nx Machina]

William Shakesman님이 먼저 게시:

You ARE owed a complete product though. People will do everything they can to ensure developers and corporations need never engage in personal responsibility for reasons I will never understand. The verbal gymnastics they engage in to do so is always amusing. People really do worship contracts.

No you are not owed a complete product because purchasing is not mandatory for EAG's, nor even AAA, Indie etc.

What exactly is a complete product? One which fits critetia you set? Even when a product is deemed complete by the developer you get complaints.

Act 3 should be longer. There should be more levels. There be should be a more robust character create, etc, etc, etc.

Is Anthem a AAA game complete. No it was abandoned.


As for your anti-corporation stance that is personal to you and not reflective of another persons stance which you assume to be pro corporation.

As for personal responsibility - adding a game to your cart and clicking confirm is taking personal responsibilty for your purchases, instead of blaming anyone else for a decision you made.

[Al'Vi]

Nx Machina님이 먼저 게시:

It is a bad deal in your opinion yet purchasing is voluntary not mandatory, thereore why complain about EAG's.

No, it is a bad deal as in a fact for the reasons I already explained multiple times. None of those reasons are "my opinion". The fact that you like EA so much that you don't think it should face any criticism is an opinion. I don't complain about them 'cause I don't care, I simply stated a fact.

Al'Vi님이 먼저 게시:

How many AAA games have failed?

How many AAA games never released although they were promised?

How many AAA promised the experience of a lifetime and bombed?

How many AAA were buggy at release and continue to because they are no longer patched?

Less than EA games, literally in every single category? If you're gonna get yourself involved in an argument I had with another person, you might wanna stop debating the demons in your head and start reading what is written. I never defended AAA. They are just more "honest" than EA on average, by far. And "proving" to me that AAA games suck as well doesn't contradict my argument at all.

Nx Machina님이 먼저 게시:

You are here (self appointed) to spread consumer awareness in the belief that consumers are incapable of making their own choice.

Where did I say anything remotely similar to that or anything that would imply I believe that? Point it to me in a quote. When are you gonna start making sense?

[Al'Vi]

William Shakesman님이 먼저 게시:

You ARE owed a complete product though. People will do everything they can to ensure developers and corporations need never engage in personal responsibility for reasons I will never understand. The verbal gymnastics they engage in to do so is always amusing. People really do worship contracts.

Yeah, consumers defending corporations against their own interest is always hilarious. But it's not one of those situations. Because in this case, you have an alternative option, buying on release, you literally don't have to purchase EA. You're not gonna benefit from it in any way. You are gonna bear the risk. Now... do you STILL wanna do it, though? Okay, I don't have a problem with that.

Like Nx said, there were some really good games that came out from EA's Wild West. If they were helped by influx of EA money in any way, that means I will benefit from a higher quality game when I buy it on release. And NEVER, in any way, shape or form did I ever stop and think to myself "man, I wish I bought this game in EA, I missed out on so much!" So if a consumer is fully aware of what EA is, but still decides to use it, then it's a consumer's responsibility for entering into a bad deal. Should we cancel EA over it? Nah, I don't think so. Just raise consumer awareness.

[Start_Running]

Al'Vi님이 먼저 게시:

Start_Running님이 먼저 게시:

And why would you be exopecting thoise qualities from a game clearly labelled as unfinished?

And expecting them at some point - at the final release, by the latest - is also too much?

Considering the only thing beintg sold in EA is "an unfinished game that may or may not ever progress beyond the state in which you purchase it" Yeah it is rather unreasonable to expect anything that isn't a glitchy bug ridden, content poor unfinished game.

Kinda obvious. If you order raw pork chops at the butcher, why do you expect to unwrap perfectlyt grilled porkchiops when you get home?

Al'Vi님이 먼저 게시:

Or even expecting the games to EVER release? I've seen EA games that have been in EA for 6-7 years and never updated past whatever date corresponded to the time players moved on / stopped paying attention.

Second verse same as the first. If you are buying an unfinished games that at no point makes any guarantee of being finished let along what the finished stateb will be,,,

There's also the fact that a game is finished whenever a gaame dev decides to slap 1.0 on the version. ANy game in early access could have 1.0 slapped on it by the developers tonight and it would be considered a full release tomorrow, even if the only update was the version number on the game's title screen.

So consider that. If a dev keeps a game in early access it is only because they want to continue developing the game towards what they feel is a worthy 1.0 release. There is literally no other reason to do so.

Al'Vi님이 먼저 게시:

I'm arguing with you because this flawed image of EA is exactly was causes people to hate on it.

It's not the image that's flawed, it's the yes looking at the image. I.e 7/10 most EA complants boil down tob the complainer haviong either not read, or taken the time to understand the text in the big blue box. Generally they seem to think of it as a pre-order.

It is not. It has never been framed or described as such.
It is not a pre0order with beta access for a finished game. It is the purchase of an unfinished game that may not be finished. That is all it has ever been described as. If anyone has an expectation that goes beyond that, then that's the fault of the 4 pounds of meat between theior ears/

Another 2/10 complainers stem from additionally having no idea how game development works as a process. Most games have a development time of 4-7 years and thats with funding and a full time staff. Early Access seldom has the benefit of either.

You have games like DN4E that topped out at 15 years and Byond Good and EVil 2 which if it ever releases will soundly beat DN4e's record.

Al'Vi님이 먼저 게시:

The process of buying any game on EA can be described as 1) gambling 2) speculation 3) virtue signalling for those who like to brag about giving money to the poor, but NOT as a an informed and insured pre-purchase of a game where devs are expected to deliver all that they have promised.

Gambling? Nah. Not if you read and understand the text in the blue box.
Speculating? A Little. But again perfectly informed if one reads and understands the text in the big blue box.


If at anty point one thinks of an EA purchase as a pre-purchase, one has soundly failed at reading comprehension, or never actual read to begin with. EIther way is a shortcoming on the buyer's part..not the product.

Al'Vi님이 먼저 게시:

There's almost zero to be gained from buying EA (maybe small exclusive trinkets for early buyers) and all the risk to be had if the game 1) is an abandonware 2) runs out of passion 3) releases in subpar condition 4) is not supported past initial launch.

Some people like to see and feel like a part of the development process.
Thing is at no point is one required to buy a game in early access for any other reason.


The end point is.

People who fail to read and comprehend what they have read will always be complaining about early access. And the only thing they accomplish is to highlight their own deficiencies to those who lack them.

The system works fine. Just that there's always gonna be some idjit who thinks it's okay to use superglue as a hair care product.

[Ben Lubar]

Your proposal is to force game developers to give their games away for free until some arbitrary point in development. How would that encourage game developers to make "better" games?

[William Shakesman]

Al'Vi님이 먼저 게시:

William Shakesman님이 먼저 게시:

You ARE owed a complete product though. People will do everything they can to ensure developers and corporations need never engage in personal responsibility for reasons I will never understand. The verbal gymnastics they engage in to do so is always amusing. People really do worship contracts.

Yeah, consumers defending corporations against their own interest is always hilarious. But it's not one of those situations. Because in this case, you have an alternative option, buying on release, you literally don't have to purchase EA. You're not gonna benefit from it in any way. You are gonna bear the risk. Now... do you STILL wanna do it, though? Okay, I don't have a problem with that.

Like Nx said, there were some really good games that came out from EA's Wild West. If they were helped by influx of EA money in any way, that means I will benefit from a higher quality game when I buy it on release. And NEVER, in any way, shape or form did I ever stop and think to myself "man, I wish I bought this game in EA, I missed out on so much!" So if a consumer is fully aware of what EA is, but still decides to use it, then it's a consumer's responsibility for entering into a bad deal. Should we cancel EA over it? Nah, I don't think so. Just raise consumer awareness.

I am not a fan of canceling EA myself. I just like reminding people that their beliefs that the customer must exercise personal responsibility are not honestly held and only apply when corporations can make money off of them and when such responsibility would benefit the user, it suddenly becomes imperative that such power never be given. It is as reliable as clockwork and predictable as prophecy and never stops being funny.

That said, to play devils advocate, assuming a significant number of people feel scammed by EA and a significant number of devs are failing to meet the expectations of it (those are two very big assumptions mind you), then canceling or removing EA becomes a trivial argument: the text above the buy button then clearly isn't sufficient and EA revenue relies on scamming customers. If a significant percentage of your customers do not and cannot understand what you are selling, even if you have the text up there, then your revenue relies on fraud.

Now, I don't think any of those preconditions are met, but, as I said, its in the name: "Early Access." A slick marketing term that carries with it expectations. There is no question that, right now, the name of it was selected to get sales suggesting a reality that everyone insists the disclaimer text was meant to warn people off. No different than supermarkets selling CHEESE (tm) Flavored Substitute (Ingredients: Corn Syrup). The numbers don't back it up but if there were a fraud case to be made I would point to that as exhibit A.

[Start_Running]

Ben Lubar님이 먼저 게시:

Your proposal is to force game developers to give their games away for free until some arbitrary point in development. How would that encourage game developers to make "better" games?

I can see it leading to more mtx ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and freemium ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥
from dex/pubs. But leading to better games. yeah nah.

[Nx Machina]

Al'Vi님이 먼저 게시:

No, it is a bad deal as in a fact for the reasons I already explained multiple times. None of those reasons are "my opinion". The fact that you like EA so much that you don't think it should face any criticism is an opinion. I don't complain about them 'cause I don't care, I simply stated a fact.

It is a bad deal for YOU hence why you express YOUR opinion and state YOUR reasons why YOU deem it bad.

Al'Vi님이 먼저 게시:

Less than EA games,

What is the percentage of AAA games versus EAG in their entirety as you avoided the questions asked?

Al'Vi님이 먼저 게시:

Where did I say anything remotely similar to that or anything that would imply I believe that? Point it to me in a quote. When are you gonna start making sense?

When you wrote the following and appointed yourself a consumer advocate.

Al'Vi님이 먼저 게시:

I'm saying this to OP and to people like OP to spread consumer awareness

[Al'Vi]

Nx Machina님이 먼저 게시:

You are here (self appointed) to spread consumer awareness in the belief that consumers are incapable of making their own choice.

I will ask you once again. Show me a quote that supports any of that nonsense you keep typing up after pulling it out from your behind and explain to me how did you arrive to that conclusion.

[Nx Machina]

Al'Vi님이 먼저 게시:

Yeah, consumers defending corporations against their own interest is always hilarious.

Ah! The age old - if a consumer is not anti-corporation they are auto tagged as pro-corporation

As for "against their own interest" it is odd that you chose to word it that way while going against the principle of "it is IN their OWN interest as to the choice they make".

[Nx Machina]

Al'Vi님이 먼저 게시:

I will ask you once again. Show me a quote that supports any of that nonsense you keep typing up after pulling it out from your behind and explain to me how did you arrive to that conclusion.

Here you go. I also quoted it in the post above yours.

Al'Vi님이 먼저 게시:

I'm saying this to OP and to people like OP to spread consumer awareness

"Spread consumer awareness to the OP and to people like the OP" IS self appointing yourself as a consumer advocate.

[Al'Vi]

Nx Machina님이 먼저 게시:

Al'Vi님이 먼저 게시:

Yeah, consumers defending corporations against their own interest is always hilarious.

Ah! The age old - if a consumer is not anti-corporation they are auto tagged as pro-corporation

As for "against their own interest" it is odd that you chose to word it that way while going against the principle of "it is IN their OWN interest as to the choice they make".

And while you're at it, go fishing for where did I ever say consumers must be anti-corporate or anything that would remotely imply that. God, you never learn, do you?

[Al'Vi]

Nx Machina님이 먼저 게시:

Al'Vi님이 먼저 게시:

I will ask you once again. Show me a quote that supports any of that nonsense you keep typing up after pulling it out from your behind and explain to me how did you arrive to that conclusion.

Here you go. I also quoted it in the post above yours.

Al'Vi님이 먼저 게시:

I'm saying this to OP and to people like OP to spread consumer awareness

"Spread consumer awareness to the OP and to people like the OP" IS self appointing yourself as a consumer advocate.

I'll ask you for the third time.

Nx Machina님이 먼저 게시:

You are here (self appointed) to spread consumer awareness in the belief that consumers are incapable of making their own choice.

I trust you understood the first time which part of your baseless statement needs quoting.

[Al'Vi]

Also, just so that we're perfectly on the same page... Spreading consumer awareness doesn't ACTUALLY make you a consumer advocate, since it implies a little more than that... But you know what, that's fine. For your debating abilities, that's actually decent logical traction and I'll just let it be and take it as a complement.

[Tito Shivan]

fumzuck1님이 먼저 게시:

EVERYTHING ABOUT IT till release of the "live"game should be free.

Because everything that's developed on a regular released game is also free. No one ever released DLC day one for a game.

William Shakesman님이 먼저 게시:

You ARE owed a complete product though

You are not. That's part of the whole deal. You're joining a project mid-development.

It is in the best interest of both the players and the devs to try deliver and release an actual product. However that's something that doesn't even always happen for regular games. An early access game in development may never be released, just like a regular game in development may never release too.

♥♥♥♥ happens. In and out of Early Access.

Also mind that a complete game doesn't mean completely fullfilling your expectations. Games drop or change planned features all the time.