Considert how you ban "Customers"
Off-topic is one of the main things that helps generate a sense of community here and there's going to be disagreements...Valve services countries all over the world. Many different cultures with many different ideas and some of those ideas might seem strange but it's important to remember that different doesn't mean bad.


Let's talk about bans.

Upon completion of that ban aka time served...I suggest wiping the slate clean. In other words when time served of the ban is complete, don't "reban" them for anything posted before their last ban. If the post is a violation simply delete it. New posts after time served would still earn a ban.

Reason I have this idea is I was recently banned for a week for something I viewed as unfair. After time served I was very careful in my posts but banned for a post that was a month old that "could have" started an argument. Just got off a month ban.


Now I'm trying to quibble about the fairness of the ban. You banned me. I won't spend money at your company while banned and for a certain amount of time afterwards. I would have spent money during this sale.

My suggestion

The clean slate policy...heck it's Spring Time Call it the "New Leaf" Policy where Valve assumes that after every ban the customer has turned over a new leaf and is reformed from their past wrong ways.
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Exibindo comentários 115 de 89
cSg|mc-Hotsauce 17/mar./2024 às 22:14 
Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
Considert how you ban "Customers"

Off-topic is one of the main things that helps generate a sense of community here and there's going to be disagreements...Valve services countries all over the world. Many different cultures with many different ideas and some of those ideas might seem strange but it's important to remember that different doesn't mean bad.


Let's talk about bans.

Upon completion of that ban aka time served...I suggest wiping the slate clean. In other words when time served of the ban is complete, don't "reban" them for anything posted before their last ban. If the post is a violation simply delete it. New posts after time served would still earn a ban.

Reason I have this idea is I was recently banned for a week for something I viewed as unfair. After time served I was very careful in my posts but banned for a post that was a month old that "could have" started an argument. Just got off a month ban.


Now I'm trying to quibble about the fairness of the ban. You banned me. I won't spend money at your company while banned and for a certain amount of time afterwards. I would have spent money during this sale.

My suggestion

The clean slate policy...heck it's Spring Time Call it the "New Leaf" Policy where Valve assumes that after every ban the customer has turned over a new leaf and is reformed from their past wrong ways.

Ban history is always taken into account for future actions. This also is taken into account for ban escalation.

It doesn't really matter when the post was made, unless years ago, where support will just do what they're paid to do, take action upon reported content.

There are far too many bad apples that would love to abuse your suggestion, especially malicious actors.

:winterbunny2023:
Última edição por cSg|mc-Hotsauce; 17/mar./2024 às 22:15
Gwarsbane 17/mar./2024 às 22:18 
No, people should not get a "clean slate" after being banned. If they keep breaking the rules, they should end up perma banned.

Sadly that hasn't been happening since Valve switched to paid only moderation.

If people want to "turn over a new leaf" then they can do so, on their own... and not get banned by not breaking the rules.

As someone who has run forums in the past... the trouble makers who get banned many times... will keep on breaking the rules. The "clean slate" was the first time they were allowed back on the forums after breaking the rules.




As for your cause, you should have asked them why you were being banned for something that was over a month old and that you view it as unfair. They might have over turned it.

But also generally I find that people who keep getting banned, usually leave out details when they are ranting on the forums about how unfair the bans are and how things should be changed....
Start_Running 17/mar./2024 às 22:18 
Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
Upon completion of that ban aka time served...I suggest wiping the slate clean. In other words when time served of the ban is complete, don't "reban" them for anything posted before their last ban.
Yeah no. That's not how any punishment system worjs. If you do the crime you gonna do the time, regardless of when the cruime is discovered.

Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
Reason I have this idea is I was recently banned for a week for something I viewed as unfair. After time served I was very careful in my posts but banned for a post that was a month old that "could have" started an argument. Just got off a month ban.
It was reported, it was lokled atand you got punished for it. Just make a opoint to behave yourself.

Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
Now I'm trying to quibble about the fairness of the ban. You banned me. I won't spend money at your company while banned and for a certain amount of time afterwards. I would have spent money during this sale.
I'm sure Valve will find some way to live without the income from the 15 games you would have purchased this year. I'm sure. What's more telling is that this is how you react when your bad behaviour is called out and punished. Most people just learnto be better people. You know. Not do the thing that got you punished.

The only people who benefit from a clean slate policy are people who repeatedly offend, and/or plan to repeatedly offend.
William Shakesman 17/mar./2024 às 22:34 
It is always funny seeing people imbue moral components to forum rules as though a guy getting banned for calling someone else "troll" was a personal attack on you all.

This probably isn't something that should be hard policy but moderation clearly ought to be able to exercise some discretion about repeatedly targetting people who clearly aren't bad actors.

But OP does nail it. Off Topic serves a broad swath of cultures but moderation comes from a far narrower culture that is bit particularly tolerant of some other ways of conversing sadly
Escrito originalmente por Start_Running:
Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
Upon completion of that ban aka time served...I suggest wiping the slate clean. In other words when time served of the ban is complete, don't "reban" them for anything posted before their last ban.
Yeah no. That's not how any punishment system worjs. If you do the crime you gonna do the time, regardless of when the cruime is discovered.

Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
Reason I have this idea is I was recently banned for a week for something I viewed as unfair. After time served I was very careful in my posts but banned for a post that was a month old that "could have" started an argument. Just got off a month ban.
It was reported, it was lokled atand you got punished for it. Just make a opoint to behave yourself.

Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
Now I'm trying to quibble about the fairness of the ban. You banned me. I won't spend money at your company while banned and for a certain amount of time afterwards. I would have spent money during this sale.
I'm sure Valve will find some way to live without the income from the 15 games you would have purchased this year. I'm sure. What's more telling is that this is how you react when your bad behaviour is called out and punished. Most people just learnto be better people. You know. Not do the thing that got you punished.

The only people who benefit from a clean slate policy are people who repeatedly offend, and/or plan to repeatedly offend.
I'm not suggesting that Valve will be hurt from losing myself as a customer. And as I said in the previous post I'm open to giving Steam a chance of redemption.

After a certain amount of time has passed I might start looking at the Steam Store again.
Until then I close Steam and treat it as a program that is hogging resources.

But this isn't about my purchasing habits. And I'm not here to quibble about my ban. They said one thing, I think another...it's their platform, and I'm just the customer. If they want to send me a certain message...well message received.

Other gaming platforms don't have the sense of community but I don't feel targeted from them.

My suggest was meant to just improve Steam. Remember they aren't a social media company.

I found Twitter "X" to be much more freedom orientated in relation to speech. I'm a medical professional and I can say things on X directly related to my professional degree without fear of censorship. But I doubt I'll get the same gamer community but that's okay.

As I said it's just a friendly suggestion.
Tito Shivan 18/mar./2024 às 1:04 
Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
Upon completion of that ban aka time served...I suggest wiping the slate clean. In other words when time served of the ban is complete, don't "reban" them for anything posted before their last ban. If the post is a violation simply delete it. New posts after time served would still earn a ban.
From experience. When you're getting repeatedly banned for stuff that's prior to your last ban it means there's a deeper issue than receiving a ban. It means you have a backlog of rule-breaking posts not dealt with/reported.

I'm afraid your problem isn't with moderation as much as it is with your posting habits.

Escrito originalmente por William Shakesman:
But OP does nail it. Off Topic serves a broad swath of cultures but moderation comes from a far narrower culture that is bit particularly tolerant of some other ways of conversing sadly
People often don't realise 'Off topic' doesn't mean 'off rules'. And since the removal of the non-politics/religion discussions rule a lot of topics that make people heated up and prone to an outburst worth moderating has increased many times, specially on that section of the forums.
Tonepoet 18/mar./2024 às 3:27 
Escrito originalmente por Gwarsbane:
No, people should not get a "clean slate" after being banned. If they keep breaking the rules, they should end up perma banned.

Sadly that hasn't been happening since Valve switched to paid only moderation.

If people want to "turn over a new leaf" then they can do so, on their own... and not get banned by not breaking the rules.

This proposal is does not regard people who keep on breaking the rules though. It regards past infractions prior to the most recent ban.

Imagine incurring somebody's ire or mischeviousness to the extent wherein they are motivated to go through your post history with a fine tooth comb and report something you did which might plausibly be conceived as an infraction of the rules, even years after the fact, despite it not causing a problem at the time it was first posted, and being buried too deep within the forum history to for anybody without a personal grudge against you to genuinely pay it any mind.
Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
Escrito originalmente por Start_Running:
Yeah no. That's not how any punishment system worjs. If you do the crime you gonna do the time, regardless of when the cruime is discovered.


It was reported, it was lokled atand you got punished for it. Just make a opoint to behave yourself.


I'm sure Valve will find some way to live without the income from the 15 games you would have purchased this year. I'm sure. What's more telling is that this is how you react when your bad behaviour is called out and punished. Most people just learnto be better people. You know. Not do the thing that got you punished.

The only people who benefit from a clean slate policy are people who repeatedly offend, and/or plan to repeatedly offend.
I'm not suggesting that Valve will be hurt from losing myself as a customer. And as I said in the previous post I'm open to giving Steam a chance of redemption.

After a certain amount of time has passed I might start looking at the Steam Store again.
Until then I close Steam and treat it as a program that is hogging resources.

But this isn't about my purchasing habits. And I'm not here to quibble about my ban. They said one thing, I think another...it's their platform, and I'm just the customer. If they want to send me a certain message...well message received.

Other gaming platforms don't have the sense of community but I don't feel targeted from them.

My suggest was meant to just improve Steam. Remember they aren't a social media company.

I found Twitter "X" to be much more freedom orientated in relation to speech. I'm a medical professional and I can say things on X directly related to my professional degree without fear of censorship. But I doubt I'll get the same gamer community but that's okay.

As I said it's just a friendly suggestion.
Nah.

Some customers aren't worth keeping if they can't behave.
BJWyler 18/mar./2024 às 4:13 
Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
I'm not suggesting that Valve will be hurt from losing myself as a customer. And as I said in the previous post I'm open to giving Steam a chance of redemption.
Steam doesn't need to be redeemed for upholding their own ruleset.

Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
And I'm not here to quibble about my ban.
If that were true, this thread would not exist

Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
They said one thing, I think another...it's their platform, and I'm just the customer.
Which at least shows more common sense and understanding than most of the bad actors who come to these forums to create havoc and then complain about getting clapped back for it.

Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
If they want to send me a certain message...well message received.
Indeed. And that message starts with the clearly outlined guidelines for community postings. Break the rules, regardless of when they are broken, and you will eventually be punished for it.

Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
Other gaming platforms don't have the sense of community but I don't feel targeted from them.
Many don't have the social interaction features that Steam does, and I rarely meet any person that feels targeted by a program that is hogging resources. So when one feels targeted, perhaps one should do some inner reflection to figure out why.

Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
My suggest was meant to just improve Steam. Remember they aren't a social media company.
The funny thing about suggestions is that, when analyzed through an objective lens, one tends to find that the improvements tend to only refer to the one making the suggestion. Ways of "reforming" moderation have been made many times before, and almost invariably end up with the most amount of benefit to the bad actors making the suggestions with little to no benefit to Steam or the normal users who are able to interact on the forums with no trouble or worries about being targeted.

Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
I found Twitter "X" to be much more freedom orientated in relation to speech. I'm a medical professional and I can say things on X directly related to my professional degree without fear of censorship. But I doubt I'll get the same gamer community but that's okay.
Well I guess that's a plus for the Gamer Community then. Despite the bad rep we get, which is only exacerbated by the toxicity and trolls, which comprise only a small portion of the overall community, the Gaming Community has shown a remarkable propensity for rational, free thought, and inclusiveness of all people. Just look at the good that we as a community can, and have done through things like Extra Life. So it's good to note that despite the trolls' best efforts to bring this community down, we can shove them aside and continue to progress towards a more positive future.
Última edição por BJWyler; 18/mar./2024 às 4:15
Yasahi 18/mar./2024 às 4:16 
Escrito originalmente por Tonepoet:
Escrito originalmente por Gwarsbane:
No, people should not get a "clean slate" after being banned. If they keep breaking the rules, they should end up perma banned.

Sadly that hasn't been happening since Valve switched to paid only moderation.

If people want to "turn over a new leaf" then they can do so, on their own... and not get banned by not breaking the rules.

This proposal is does not regard people who keep on breaking the rules though. It regards past infractions prior to the most recent ban.

Imagine incurring somebody's ire or mischeviousness to the extent wherein they are motivated to go through your post history with a fine tooth comb and report something you did which might plausibly be conceived as an infraction of the rules, even years after the fact, despite it not causing a problem at the time it was first posted, and being buried too deep within the forum history to for anybody without a personal grudge against you to genuinely pay it any mind.

Imagine someone going on multiple subforums, posting insults and other rule breaking content in dozens if not hundreds of threads.

Now one moderator acts on the first report and hands out a 24h ban for one of the posts. A hundred other infractions go unpunished because the "slate is wiped clean".

Depending on the subforum activity and moderator queues some of the reported content could be waiting to be actioned upon. The moderators haven't just gotten to them yet. If anything, the moderators should collect all those and go up the ban escalator right away. Not forgive them because a ban was already issued.

Valve should do away with the current system and switch to properly escalating bans that nip the problem in the bud. Something like 24 hours -> 1 month -> 3 months -> 6 months -> permanent with no chance of appeal before three years have passed.
Tito Shivan 18/mar./2024 às 4:26 
Escrito originalmente por Tonepoet:
Escrito originalmente por Gwarsbane:
No, people should not get a "clean slate" after being banned. If they keep breaking the rules, they should end up perma banned.

Sadly that hasn't been happening since Valve switched to paid only moderation.

If people want to "turn over a new leaf" then they can do so, on their own... and not get banned by not breaking the rules.

This proposal is does not regard people who keep on breaking the rules though. It regards past infractions prior to the most recent ban.

This is more likely than you think and usually happens for reasons way more common than 'having someone on you post history digging for things to report.

There's always new people reading the forums. A month old post can be new for someone who just stumbled upon the thread. Posts can be moderated by different teams with different timeframes... It's usually not someone going after you.

Of course context is of relevance, and taking a second look at issuing a ban at someone who just got banned for something in the same thread with a posterior date may not necessarily grant an additional ban. But that's the playbook Steam has decided to play by with their actual moderators.
Tanoomba 18/mar./2024 às 4:28 
Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
I found Twitter "X" to be much more freedom orientated in relation to speech. I'm a medical professional and I can say things on X directly related to my professional degree without fear of censorship. But I doubt I'll get the same gamer community but that's okay.
Ah, there it is.
Yes, you can get away with bigotry and transphobia on Twitter because Twitter is owned by a bigoted transphobe. Steam won't (and absolutely shouldn't) allow such rhetoric here.
Pipe 18/mar./2024 às 4:49 
Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
Reason I have this idea is I was recently banned for a week for something I viewed as unfair. After time served I was very careful in my posts but banned for a post that was a month old that "could have" started an argument.
man, the moderation here is very exploitable

so, moral of the story: be sure to delete your whole ass comment history from existence
Brian9824 18/mar./2024 às 5:23 
Escrito originalmente por Pipe:
Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
Reason I have this idea is I was recently banned for a week for something I viewed as unfair. After time served I was very careful in my posts but banned for a post that was a month old that "could have" started an argument.
man, the moderation here is very exploitable

so, moral of the story: be sure to delete your whole ass comment history from existence

Nah moral of the story is stop breaking rules.

I mean what the OP suggests is a serial killer could kill 10,000 people, then smoke a joint in front of a cop and get arrested for the joint and have his slate wiped clean and they just ignore the 10,000 people he killed.

its nonsensical.
Start_Running 18/mar./2024 às 5:31 
Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
I'm not suggesting that Valve will be hurt from losing myself as a customer. And as I said in the previous post I'm open to giving Steam a chance of redemption.
Because it's Steam that needs change and remption..not the guy who can't behave.

Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
After a certain amount of time has passed I might start looking at the Steam Store again.
Until then I close Steam and treat it as a program that is hogging resources.
mmm-Hmmm. Sure you will.

Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
But this isn't about my purchasing habits.
No it's about your bad behaviour and inability to follow the basic guidelines for constructive discourse. Something most people can manage purely from habit and vibes.

Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
And I'm not here to quibble about my ban. They said one thing, I think another...it's their platform, and I'm just the customer. If they want to send me a certain message...well message received.
Yeah you're the customer, and the message is, behave or be barred from the premises. There's a point like that for every business out there m8. Where they will simply say 'Get out'.

Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
Other gaming platforms don't have the sense of community but I don't feel targeted from them.
With the exception of EGS all the other platforms have their own communities and forums. Gog does. Battle.net does. Microsoft does. Ea does.

Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
My suggest was meant to just improve Steam. Remember they aren't a social media company.
Improving it? by letting people who habitually engage in bad behaviour get a free pass?
You have an odd definition of 'improvement'

Escrito originalmente por Chunk Norris ☯:
I found Twitter "X" to be much more freedom orientated in relation to speech.
Yes, and look at it. IT is an active blight on human civilization.
But hey. You like it, go there.
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