Letting users re sell their video games

[Quake Nukem]

For example let's say you have a game in your library you bought off steam then you could put it up for sale so allows the user to get rid of games they don't play or want while letting other users get to scoop up used games at lower price and of course Valve gets their cut for transaction services and Steam. Of course not every game could be eligible I presume cause some keys work different but, a lot of keys could.

[FFL2and3rocks]

Nebsun a écrit :

What if a difference WAS added - like, for example, a note attached to the game that it was owned before and the name / identity of the previous owners - resulting in new games coming with a "clean" record, and second hand games coming with a history of prior owners that cannot be removed. It would create a difference in value between factory new games and games that have been previously owned - some second hand games might even go up in value depending on the prior owner, but most would decrease in value (compared to factory new) due to having a non-removable history. Result would be that factory new games are more valued and more likely to sell at higher price.

The number of previous owners should increase the chance of the game bugging out and crashing, similar to all of the previous owners of a physical game scratching the disc.

[Pocahawtness]

The closest you can get to this is a monthly subscription.

[Hamsterpeek]

I would like it. I'm an old dude who grew up with NES, SNES, N64, PS1 etc. and back then you could easily sell your games too. And people even do this nowadays. I kinda miss the old days. I still have physical CDs, DVDs and cassettes of those consoles on my shelf and currently even look on ebay for some games I never owned myself.

[Pscht]

Even an "old dude" should be able to tell the difference between NES cartridges and a Steam download.

In case you can't: Besides the fact that data can be copied as often as you want (whereas I doubt you have the means to build cartridges), on Steam you buy a LICENCE. To compare that to something tangible, that's like permanent access (NOT ownership) to an arcade cabinet. You can't sell that either.

[Quake Nukem]

If user gets 60% and then Valve 15% and publisher/devs 25% I don't see no reason why that wouldn't work or be something of interest by them because it would just be new passive income. People will still be buying new copies mostly but, there def. would be a whole new side revenue market and everybody eats. Your buying and selling on the same store/market platform so it is isn't third party or some grey market it is exactly the same as buying and selling skins or trading items from inventories.

[Nx Machina]

MiScuzzi a écrit :

If user gets 60% and then Valve 15% and publisher/devs 25% I don't see no reason why that wouldn't work or be something of interest by them because it would just be new passive income. People will still be buying new copies mostly but, there def. would be a whole new side revenue market and everybody eats. Your buying and selling on the same store/market platform so it is isn't third party or some grey market it is exactly the same as buying and selling skins or trading items from inventories.

You do not own any games on any PC platform. You own a licence only which is not transferable.

[VaLiuM]

Nebsun a écrit :

Yujah a écrit :

It can't, given that there's quite literally no difference between a first-hand and a second-hand digital copy of something.

What if a difference WAS added - like, for example, a note attached to the game that it was owned before and the name / identity of the previous owners - resulting in new games coming with a "clean" record, and second hand games coming with a history of prior owners that cannot be removed. It would create a difference in value between factory new games and games that have been previously owned - some second hand games might even go up in value depending on the prior owner, but most would decrease in value (compared to factory new) due to having a non-removable history. Result would be that factory new games are more valued and more likely to sell at higher price.

Digital games are "as is", the assumption that a game that has been sold 100 times is less valuable than a copy sold once is not logical, essentially they are the SAME. Also such a record wouldn't go well when it comes to privacy, i mean it's not a car or something else that would require it, it's just digital data, a download. And as pointed out, "second hand" for data can't exist.

[Quake Nukem]

Nx Machina a écrit :

MiScuzzi a écrit :

If user gets 60% and then Valve 15% and publisher/devs 25% I don't see no reason why that wouldn't work or be something of interest by them because it would just be new passive income. People will still be buying new copies mostly but, there def. would be a whole new side revenue market and everybody eats. Your buying and selling on the same store/market platform so it is isn't third party or some grey market it is exactly the same as buying and selling skins or trading items from inventories.

You do not own any games on any PC platform. You own a licence only which is not transferable.

Okay but, I should be able to sell my license if what I bought is a license. If you buy Ableton DAW you buying a license and can re sell or just plainly trade the license key to someone else. Let's be honest it is video game industry and the greed cause if they allow buying and trading cosmetics for thousands of dollars on steam market then you should be allowed to buy/sell/trade 2nd hand video game license keys.

[VaLiuM]

MiScuzzi a écrit :

Okay but, I should be able to sell my license if what I bought is a license.

YOU get licensed, not Joe from around the corner. Maybe the dev/publisher doesn't want for licenses to be transferable or maybe they don't want to license Joe because of his name or nose. After all, devs and publishers make the rules under which terms licenses are being granted and i don't see this changing in the coming years.

[Nx Machina]

MiScuzzi a écrit :

Okay but, I should be able to sell my license if what I bought is a license. If you buy Ableton DAW you buying a license and can re sell or just plainly trade the license key to someone else. Let's be honest it is video game industry and the greed cause if they allow buying and trading cosmetics for thousands of dollars on steam market then you should be allowed to buy/sell/trade 2nd hand video game license keys.

Nope because the licence allows you play the game and is tied to your account.

Examples:

The Witcher 3 (also applicable to the GOG and Epic version)

https://store.steampowered.com/eula/292030_eula_0

2. WHAT YOU GET WITH THE GAME

We (meaning CD PROJEKT RED) give you the personal right (called a 'licence' legally) to download, install and play The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt on your personal computer as long as you follow these Rules. This licence is for your personal use only (so you can't give a sublicense to someone else) and >>> DOESN'T GIVE YOU OWNERSHIP RIGHTS.<<<

At all times we continue to own all of The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, all in-game content, any updates or additional content for them, manuals or other materials about them and the intellectual property rights in them, including all copyright, trademarks, patents and legal things like that (all of this together we call the ‘Game’).


Assassins Creed Valhalla (also applicable to the Epic and Ubisoft version)

https://store.steampowered.com/eula/2208920_eula_0

1. GRANT OF LICENSE.

1.1 UBISOFT (or its licensors) grants You a non-exclusive, non-transferable, non-sublicensed, non-commercial and personal license to install and/or use the Product (in whole or in part) and any Product (the “License”), for such time until either You or UBISOFT terminates this EULA. You must in no event use, nor allow others to use,the Product or this License for commercial purposes without obtaining a licence to do so from UBISOFT. Updates, upgrades, patches and modifications may be necessary in order to be able to continue to use the Product on certain hardware. >>> THIS PRODUCT IS LICENSED TO YOU, NOT SOLD.<<<


If end users where allowed to re-sell games the following would happen:

1) New games would cost triple the price.

2) No more discounted products, as discounts are not mandatory under law.


Secondly a French Court ruled (a ruling is not law) that games could be re-sold. A second court ruled they could not be because unlike productivity software, games are considered art.

And finally:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/UseTerms/Retail/Windows/11/UseTerms_Retail_Windows_11_English.htm

2. Installation and Use Rights.

a. License.

>>> The software is licensed, not sold.<<< Under this agreement, we grant you the right to install and run one instance of the software on your device (the licensed device), for use by one person at a time, so long as you comply with the terms and restrictions contained in this agreement. Updating or upgrading from non-genuine software with software from Microsoft or authorized sources does not make your original version or the updated/upgraded version genuine, and in that situation, you do not have a license to use the software.

[Mad Scientist]

MiScuzzi a écrit :

Nx Machina a écrit :

You do not own any games on any PC platform. You own a licence only which is not transferable.

Okay but, I should be able to sell my license if what I bought is a license. If you buy Ableton DAW you buying a license and can re sell or just plainly trade the license key to someone else. Let's be honest it is video game industry and the greed cause if they allow buying and trading cosmetics for thousands of dollars on steam market then you should be allowed to buy/sell/trade 2nd hand video game license keys.

Let's not advocate for things that would destabilize the market, in addition to making a gigantic wave of scammers/phishers that would sell peoples entire libraries since too many users give away their logins to shady 3rd party sites.

People always seem to attribute it to greed, well companies are here to make money, not have just a circle of people selling games nonstop without buying a new highly profitable copy to pay all the bills, make more games in the future, make content updates/DLC etc. So in addition to seeking profit as most want to do when selling something; it's the fact that you can't resell which allows high discount sales when a Developer is content with how much they've made, whereas if you had 3rd party sales, say goodbye to high discount sales & a higher initial product cost to act as a buffer in order to try reaching a level of profit to get back everything they put into making a game.

Also, you could basically say goodbye to most content updates, and hello to more expensive DLC packages. While we're at it, more games would likely be sold at a smaller base game with more DLC since DLC would unlikely ever give a transferable status, else if it did then it's another way to generate more profit because direct sales would be much lower.


All in all, I personally believe as usual from a consumer & business perspective, that it's a terrible idea to allow digital re-sale.

[Spawn of Totoro]

MiScuzzi a écrit :

Nx Machina a écrit :

You do not own any games on any PC platform. You own a licence only which is not transferable.

Okay but, I should be able to sell my license if what I bought is a license. If you buy Ableton DAW you buying a license and can re sell or just plainly trade the license key to someone else. Let's be honest it is video game industry and the greed cause if they allow buying and trading cosmetics for thousands of dollars on steam market then you should be allowed to buy/sell/trade 2nd hand video game license keys.

https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

The Content and Services are licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Content and Services. To make use of the Content and Services, you must have a Steam Account and you may be required to be running the Steam client and maintaining a connection to the Internet.

You also understand and acknowledge that Subscriptions traded, sold or ordered in any Subscription Marketplace are license rights, that you have no ownership interest in such Subscriptions, and that Valve does not recognize any transfers of Subscriptions (including transfers by operation of law) that are made outside of Steam.

Can't sell what you do not own.

MiScuzzi a écrit :

If user gets 60% and then Valve 15% and publisher/devs 25% I don't see no reason why that wouldn't work or be something of interest by them because it would just be new passive income. People will still be buying new copies mostly but, there def. would be a whole new side revenue market and everybody eats. Your buying and selling on the same store/market platform so it is isn't third party or some grey market it is exactly the same as buying and selling skins or trading items from inventories.

More like 10% for the user, 60% for the developer and 30% for Valve.

Developers get 70-80% of a sale already and are unlikely to give that up. If Valve had a used market, then they would pull out of Steam and fine another platform or create their own.

[VaLiuM]

Mad Scientist a écrit :

All in all, I personally believe as usual from a consumer & business perspective, that it's a terrible idea to allow digital re-sale.

Yup and another factor would be that games would pretty much stay a lot more expensive in the future, instead of getting heavy discounts after x years. That due to not selling enough copies and games not being sold on higher prices at all.

[Yujah]

Nebsun a écrit :

Yujah a écrit :

It can't, given that there's quite literally no difference between a first-hand and a second-hand digital copy of something.

What if a difference WAS added - like, for example, a note attached to the game that it was owned before (...)

Many thanks to FFL2and3rocks for nicely formulating already what I'd feel wrong with that: this rather than to anything real now even explicitly latching on only to the merely psychological New & Shiny aspect that I argued some are not (too) susceptible to in the first place. And by the way more generally that even if enough would/could be, that a difference would need to concern the product and/or its price itself rather than some explicitly for the purpose tacked-on non-intrinsic aspect -- come to think of it likely even actually in fact as a matter of legally allowed and/or protected product differentiation, i.e., in a way in which a buyer would not immediately have the legal right to remove the difference.

In any case this for me leaves "product-intrinsic" and "price" as possible differences and with in the digital domain former unavailable therefore latter. One could think of some scheme, but to make this be a thing in the first place first-sale doctrine would need to be declared applicable at which point nothing as to resale can be legally restricted/enforced anymore.

So we collectively set out changing the entire legal intellectual property rights framework so as to allow for a second-hand market for digital goods -- and then run into Haruspex' point of not just non-deterioration but infinite, non-deteriorating duplication and therefore a saturated market before we've even a first draft regulating it ready.

As mentioned I payed on average less than the price of a (commercially obtained; I'll admit that ones I make at home are in fact cheaper...) cup of coffee for my Steam games. I have for that price obtained the right and possibility to consume the product and in fact to do so as many times as I care to. What I have not obtained is the right or possibility to resale -- and I'm fine with that seeing as how I do not believe a healthy market for these products can exist should I have that right.

[Hamsterpeek]

Pscht a écrit :

Even an "old dude" should be able to tell the difference between NES cartridges and a Steam download.

In case you can't: Besides the fact that data can be copied as often as you want (whereas I doubt you have the means to build cartridges), on Steam you buy a LICENCE. To compare that to something tangible, that's like permanent access (NOT ownership) to an arcade cabinet. You can't sell that either.

I work in IT. I'm not stupid. I just said I like the idea what we could sell it. Also technically this would be possible since you can only play the game if you've a steam acc with that game. I've multiple accounts and can't play a game I've installed as long I'm not on the account which owns that game.

And the strict thought process that it is only a license and not something physical is as outdated as thinking virtual things like EFT's, CS skins etc. have no value. They've. And as EFT's, CS Skins etc. valve could have a market where people can sell their game licences.