Promises, Norms, Tags, Market Methods
Hey Steamers,

I have recognized that steam has a few really problematic tags which promises features which are often not included in the game and I dont mean early access productions for all.

- Full Controller Support -
I dont know what this Tag means for you, but for me as programmer means that, that this software uses an open Keymapper and is able to map any normed USB 10 Button & Cross or 2-12 Button & Axis Analog Controller also the PS3, Steam & XBox Controllers are full supported.
Xinput is not able to map Controllers which are not Microsoft Licensed! The question here is, would you buy a product which would not work with your devices?

So when a Developer uses XInput and the game is flagged as Full Controller Support then this is a cheat and steam can think they can contract what they want, but this is a illegal action like cracking & seeding games, because the given Feature is not and would not every be applied! Think about this! IT Fascism is not the way and will kill your customers.

- Norms -
Steam needs a Flag for the Engine which is used and if the Developer/s is/are an Indie, Studio or Publisher, why? The most Customers of Steam and other Plattforms often ask, why some Games has such a big amount of DLC Pakets or why some Games will raise their prices when Steam set them to Sale like GTA V and no one will do a thing against those marketing methods, because an Indie Developer would never be allowed to do such a poor action. Make fair play for all!

- Promises & Market Methods -

The Facit seems here that Steam allows Big Publishers like Rockstar Games and others Big Publishers a benefit. Did you mean this is fair? Steam must be recognize that famous Indie Development Titles have made Steam to the plattform which they is today!

Dont kill your customers and be more fair! Im not a game magazine or something like that which is prohibited to say what I see!

Addition:
Also a Tag for when the Game must be Customer hosted over Port Controll. I dont know if someone realize this, but when the Customer has a VDSL Connection then he is not able to controll every Port Number. So the Product also can here not be used with all features, because an information about the Product is not included.
Last edited by Spawn of Totoro; May 2, 2016 @ 9:42am
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Showing 1-12 of 12 comments
Brujeira May 2, 2016 @ 3:57am 
1. Full Controller Support means that it's got full support for all controllers that will work on your system. Here's the important bit: Sony stuff isn't supported by Windows as Sony won't write Windows drivers for their controllers. Pretty much everyone else seems to know this. If you want to use Sony controllers then you need to use a workaround because Sony say so. It's nothing to do with individual game devs nor should it be their responsibility to work around Sony's intransigence.

2. All prices and sales are set by the devs/publishers and not by Steam. This has been stated in the forums countless times. Quit holding Valve responsible for this stuff. And yes, an indie dev would be allowed to raise their base prices during a sale as they set the prices.

3. It's none of Valve's business what a dev or publisher does unless they break the terms of the agreements they signed up to when they agreed to sell games through Steam. It isn't. Really, it isn't. Valve take their 30% cut of the sale and that's the end of their involvement.

4. Whether a game uses servers or P2P multiplayer can easily be determined by asking in the game's forum before buying it or simply Googling for the info. You might also want to ask in the hardware forum for more specific advice on solutions for your port forwarding issue. If it bothers you that much then add the tag to games yourself.
Last edited by Brujeira; May 2, 2016 @ 3:57am
G4mm4g0bl1n May 2, 2016 @ 4:06am 
Ok, good my English has lags I know this and will try to explain it again:

I had a Hama Controller which is a USB Standard 2 Axis-Analog Controller (PSX Dualshock Layout) and this wouldnt work with XInput.DLL programmed Software. PS3 & 4 Controllers are Xinput Compatible when the Bluetooth Dongle is it....

1. So Full Controller Support means the Software has an Open Keymapper which can map any Controller and this is depended on the programming and which Libraries are used. I know that, Im a Software Engineer for my own.

2. I programmed a small News Crawler which fetches in a special amount of time all Sale prices for Software from Steam Market. I never recognized what you said about the sale and the indie devs. My Programm says: FALSE about your comment.

3. I know a special Organisation in Europe which is called "Customer Protection". I guess its time to write a few e-mails and bring up a small group back to life.

4. Is this a publishment and marketing plattform for games? Why I had to fish the Informations about the product from another source, when the source where I will buy the Game has all to collect the Informations which are important that the customers buys the product?
Brujeira May 2, 2016 @ 4:20am 
1. The PS3 and PS4 controllers don't use XInput - they use the older, outdated DirectInput. Does the software you write contain full backward compatibility for obsolete libraries? No, of course it doesn't - your boss would fire you if you wasted time putting that stuff into the company's programs. Why would a game dev waste time programming support for this when practically everyone who uses a Sony controller already has the workaround installed?

2. Please read posts throughly before you respond. I didn't say that indie devs had done that - I said that they could if they wanted to as they control the prices of their games. This has been stated in the forums countless times.

3. Good luck with that. As a rule, these 'organisations' tend to be either completely ineffective or downright corrupt.

4. So you still haven't figured out that all those tags are user generated? Valve doesn't add them - we do. So if it bothers you that much then add the tags yourself.
G4mm4g0bl1n May 2, 2016 @ 4:32am 
"PS3 & 4 Controllers are Xinput Compatible when the Bluetooth Dongle is it...."
If the Bluetooth Dongle supports XInput will the Controllers work. I hate when I must all the ♥♥♥♥ twice.

He doesnt waste his time, because a full open licensed Keymapper like "Simple Direct Layer Keymapper" and so many many many other libraries which are free, well documented and can be used with EVERY Controller. Did you understand, EVERY also my Gamecube, N64 or ATARI 5200 Controller! Backward Compatibilty... Guys like you doesnt understand anything. To support ALL means backward compatibility? I sit on a computer! Did you recognize this, not a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ over expensive console which is not able to type a letter on it!

They cant do that. Read the Reglements about Indie Devs, they alot different.

They are so ineffective that a MMORPG Developer which is called "Bethesda" has be punished for they marketing method about Elder Scrolls Online from the european Customer Protection Service and has to change the payment methods. When one guy screams its not a problem, but when the right guys screaming then change this a lot of things in an instant.

When you add them, then is this a good sign for that the customers of the today are really stupid, when they cant see a difference between facts. Poor blind people. :)
Brujeira May 2, 2016 @ 5:06am 
Repeat it as often as you like - if your Sony DirectInput controller suddenly (miraculously) became an XInput controller simply because you're using a particular dongle then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Including that library still requires extra programming and testing work for no additional gain for the dev as most people already use the workarounds and therefore won't even notice the dev has done the work for them. Not cost effective - ask your boss for an opinion and he'll explain why you're wrong.

Got a link for those regulations? What you're saying about Indie devs seems to disagree with everything that's been stated in every single forum post, blog post and news story that I've readon the subject.
G4mm4g0bl1n May 2, 2016 @ 5:47am 
Xinput is also an extra librarie, what does would you saying me?

Do me a favor and inform you about API & Interface Standards with Keymapping. You dont imagine how much nonsense you type.

My Boss is a Boss of a Security System Development Company. Did you think my Boss needs unsolved or half done work from me? ;) Think about this, he pays really good for this and is happy about a thing which needs 10minutes more to work, but is 1000 times more effective.

Now you got the right question. Where are this regulations? They must exist otherwise the indie devs would handle on steam like big publisher, but they dont, because they cant! Its a sort of Logic. ;)

The Price for an indie development seems to be bounded to the sold copies, but why has Electronic Arts and Co.KG not those regulations? They are not gods, they are really bad, when they need 1mio $ for an AAA title which gaves 3mio$ back and the indie developer releases a work with 100$ start and makes 200.000$ who was more effective and which game has more popularity?

The Question here is:
Why can a big Publisher get for an untested software about +50$ per Copy and Games like Arc, Space Engineers and so on, not? Explain me this Marketing Method. Its far away from reality and marketing calculations and trust me, I know a lot about those things. ;)
Last edited by G4mm4g0bl1n; May 2, 2016 @ 6:09am
Fox May 2, 2016 @ 6:29am 
Originally posted by ¢ÒÓ£ $p0†:
Now you got the right question. Where are this regulations? They must exist otherwise the indie devs would handle on steam like big publisher, but they dont, because they cant! Its a sort of Logic. ;)
Or simply, should one apply Occam's razor, they don't exist, and indie companies choose not to go the morally wrong route while bigger companies do, as they can afford the temporary loss of PR.

Big studios who at one point dabbled into unethical actions (EA, Rockstar, even Valve although they are technically indie...) are still thriving today. Indies trying to do the same thing like Digital Homicide or Code Avarice, however, went through a darker path.

The lower money in reserve you have, the less likely you want to annoy your major source of income.

However, if you happen to put your hands over those regulations, you're free to share it sooner rather than later. I'd be very interested in its findings.

Originally posted by ¢ÒÓ£ $p0†:
The Question here is:
Why can a big Publisher get for an untested software about +50$ per Copy and Games like Arc, Space Engineers and so on, not? Explain me this Markting Method. Its far away from reality and markting calculations and trust me, I know a lot about those things. ;)
I'd guess that's because somewhere in the path of indie games, the standard indie price was viewed as roughly 20$, inferior to the 60$ an AAA game is viewed as worth.

It affects big ones's vision too : when Ubisoft released an indie-themed game, it went for 15$, a quarter of what one could expect.
Last edited by Fox; May 2, 2016 @ 6:30am
Brujeira May 2, 2016 @ 6:55am 
Originally posted by ¢ÒÓ£ $p0†:
snip

I was programming when you were an ovum.

Your boss puts business first - you don't. Turn to your boss and say "The software doesn't support this really old stuff and it should even though practically no-one needs it to. We should include that support." Your boss will rightly say no. And by the way, if a game dev's working under Windows then they'll be using DirectX because it's the standard technique for programming under Windows and you stick to programming standards. DirectX currently relies on XInput for receiving data from fully compatible controllers because Microsoft says so.

No link to the regs? Yeah, I couldn't find them either. Maybe you're wrong on that.

The price is whatever the dev says it is. The sales discount is whatever the dev says it is. Whether it goes on sale at all is down to the dev. For example, an indie dev is well within their rights to increase their game's price when their game comes out of Early Access. Why? Because they can. This has been discussed endlessly here in the forums along with endless complaints about AAA games costing far more on Steam than via retail - the reasons for that have also been endlessly discussed here, so I'd suggest you use Google to read up on it.

This is my last post on this as I doubt you can be dissuaded from your viewpoint no matter how much people discuss it with you.
G4mm4g0bl1n May 2, 2016 @ 8:06am 
You never programm a single Line my friend. You also cant discuss existin Laws in different countries.

And hey, from my Boss: If you plan to start a Business, plan it to perfection or let do the Business anyone other who knows what they do!"

OpenGL is standard and works for ALL Systems. From where did you got those idiotic informations and you will be what, a programmer? DirectX is for Microsoft Devices and nothing else.

Show me your link, if its the greenlight Steam FAQ thingy then read correctly like a business man and you will see what the problem on this garbage is.

It also no matters the actually laws of the country in which I buyed the software? Be carefull I guess you know a lot less as you think at the moment. ;)

EA, Rockstar and Valve are technically what? Indie... Hey Guys, I guess you start to clean your googles to see more clear. It seems you dont realize how much difference between both exist.
Last edited by G4mm4g0bl1n; May 2, 2016 @ 8:07am
Spawn of Totoro May 2, 2016 @ 9:39am 
Originally posted by ¢ÒÓ£ $p0†:
- Full Controller Support -

This is a controller's ability to play the game.

Partial controller support means the controller can only be used in the game and not the menus.

Full controller support means it can be used in both the game and the menus.

The developer chooses what one they want for the game. It is not flagged in any way.

The Logitech F310 is not a licensed X-Input controller. You do not have to have a license to use XInput, just as you did not need it for DirectInput. I can also remap the controller if the game's developer has allowed for the function to do so. This had been true of both AAA and Indi games.

Originally posted by ¢ÒÓ£ $p0†:
-- Norms -

No, they do not need such a flag. There is no purpose or reason for it. GTAV never raised their price either. Some Indi developers have been cought do so though.

Doesn't matter if you flag them as it is each developer who makes their own decisions.

Doesn't matter what game engine a game uses either, as long as the game works. The engine is only as good as the programing the games developer does to it. That is what makes a game work or not work. The engine is a very minor factor.

Many developers also use custom engines, so there would be no flag available for such games.

Originally posted by ¢ÒÓ£ $p0†:
- Promises & Market Methods -

They get no benefits beyond any other developer on Steam. Anything the AAA developers can do, the Indi developers can also do.

What benefits do you think they are getting?

Originally posted by ¢ÒÓ£ $p0†:
Addition:

I have yet to see that happen.

VDSL is not diffrent form any other internet connection, nor does it have anyting to do with ports on it's own. Ports are for your firewall and router.

Originally posted by ¢ÒÓ£ $p0†:
EA, Rockstar and Valve are technically what? Indie...

If by EA you mean Early Access, then that is independent of being AAA or Indi as both have used Early Access. Such as Tom Clancy’s Ghost Recon Online[www.polygon.com].

Rockstar[en.wikipedia.org] is owned by Take-Two Interactive[en.wikipedia.org] and is not an Indi developer.

-----

On a side note, I'll move this to Suggestions/Ideas. I suggest posting in the correct forum next time.

I also suggest not bringing up piracy in your posts as that is a permanent ban.

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=4045-USHJ-3810&l=english

Off-Limit Topics/Replies

Do not post any topics/replies containing the following:

Any discussion of piracy will result in a permanent ban from the Steam Community including, but not limited to:
  • Cracks
  • Key generators
  • Console emulators
Last edited by Spawn of Totoro; May 2, 2016 @ 9:48am
Fox May 2, 2016 @ 10:21am 
Originally posted by ¢ÒÓ£ $p0†:
EA, Rockstar and Valve are technically what? Indie... Hey Guys, I guess you start to clean your googles to see more clear. It seems you dont realize how much difference between both exist.
Valve is technically indie, as they do publish their own games, but as I said, I tend more to consider it as a big studio. I don't recall calling the other two indies, unless it was a communication mistake ?

I can't really reply to the rest, as I'm unable to determine which part concerns me or the other poster. You may wish to quote the concerned post (hover over it then hit the arrow appearing on the top right) to make it more clear.
G4mm4g0bl1n May 2, 2016 @ 11:30am 
Spawn of Totoro

Seems I have to discuss this in another form which is more effective in reality ways, but thanks for your reaction its like I minded, like I want to discuss about and you confirms what I try to say.

Sorry, for starting the topic into the wrong board. The overview of the boards is not as easy as you think, but dont worry it wouldnt never happen again, because I never would use the community boards on steam again. Have a Nice day.
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Date Posted: May 2, 2016 @ 3:30am
Posts: 12