Native support for valve games on Apple arm processors - M1, M1 pro, M1 max, M1 ultra, m2, and the following chips

[ZcorpX]

A lot of topics have been discussed here, but I don't understand why the most popular counterargument for developers is 2% of Mac users. How valve and other users do not see the logical error that Mac users do not play on mac computers because games are not supported. How can mac users play if games are not supported?

I have a lot of friends who bought themselves new Macs, none of them play on the mac just for the reason that everything is very bad, even Steam itself is not optimized, which immediately pushes away from the idea of playing. How do developers not see the relationship between how many people use macs for games and the fact that 95% of games are not compatible with mac? I've read all the topics related to m1 chips and native support, it's a horror to what people are not logical. In general, if the Valve management thinks that the Mac is not a popular Computer for games, collecting statistics from the use of Steam, then, there is a direct dependence, it is not popular precisely because it is impossible to play on it, how it can be used for games, even if Steam itself has been working through for 2 years. Rosetta 2.

Mac computers are very popular, you can see the sales reports published by Apple. And if you can play on them, and it depends only on the developers (there are no problems with graphics and performance in the m series), then Apple's equipment would be considered for purchase as a gaming solution, which together would raise the mark from 2% of players on the mac to unimaginable limits. But unfortunately, no one sees the logical dependence that if there are no games on the mac, then you can't play on them, and those that are 2% of masochists who torment themselves with this rosetta 2 are just the audience of their survey.

My post is for developers, and for players with mac m series, so that they do not hesitate to write appeals to developers, thinking that they are a minority, we are a minority precisely for the reason that there are no games for mac and the idea of playing and installing Steam on mac m series does not seem very attractive. When developers are too lazy to simply update their built-in browser on arm / Write topics, letters, let everyone know that many people would like to play on Mac, given that processors allow. I have repeated myself many times, sorry if anything, just bombs, and I write the thoughts that come.

[ZcorpX]

İlk olarak gagnrad tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak ZcorpX tarafından gönderildi:

I took the data from their website, and you took the data for the US market, although I, for example, am not from the USA, and also a very large part is not from the USA. But again, it doesn't matter at all, because when you take a computer to play sometimes, you always keep one idea in your head, which has been developing for years - the MAc is not for games. And these 16% are the reason for the choice, because everyone chooses the most versatile device, even if they will not use the functions. So, the situation with games is completely different now, the mac is very good for games, (their processors are very good) it's just that developers don't support new processors. Yes, maybe I want changes too quickly, but there has been no progress in this direction for 2 years! Once again, Valve can't even update its Steam in 2 years. Which works terribly on mac m.

Because it's not a priority because mac has no market share. You're right, I did only use US stats instead of the rest of the 3rd world, cause legitimately, this is where the entire market is being driven from. While there may be large populations outside the US as a whole of gamers, the US is by far the largest single market and therefore determiner.

I repeat your verdict once again: "because Mac doesn't have a market share" Is just a consequence of the fact that when choosing a mac, people are faced with the situation that they can't play on them normally, so they prefer other windows devices/ Although apple has long been competing in price and quality with any windows device. It is strange that apple itself does not understand the situation with games, and does nothing to change it for the better. Although, perhaps they do not need to develop someone else's Steam market) Here you can speculate. Perhaps apple will develop its platform.

[Boblin the Goblin]

İlk olarak ZcorpX tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak KittenGrindr tarafından gönderildi:

Mac is overpriced and a closed ecosystem.

They are anything but friendly or a good solution for 'amateur gamers' because of those two points alone.

Please remind me when windows was an open system? You use popular cliches for reasoning that mislead others. Also, due to the fact that apple is not friendly to gaming companies, this is due only to the conditions of promotion in their store, (Examples from Epic Gmes) but no one forbids you to make separate applications and entire stores, everything is there for this.

Mac requires premium fees to even learn to code for their system.

Even after that, there are more fees to distribute software and games for their systems.

They are not friendly to developers for games.

[gagnrad]

İlk olarak ZcorpX tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak gagnrad tarafından gönderildi:

Because it's not a priority because mac has no market share. You're right, I did only use US stats instead of the rest of the 3rd world, cause legitimately, this is where the entire market is being driven from. While there may be large populations outside the US as a whole of gamers, the US is by far the largest single market and therefore determiner.

I repeat your verdict once again: "because Mac doesn't have a market share" Is just a consequence of the fact that when choosing a mac, people are faced with the situation that they can't play on them normally, so they prefer other windows devices/ Although apple has long been competing in price and quality with any windows device. It is strange that apple itself does not understand the situation with games, and does nothing to change it for the better. Although, perhaps they do not need to develop someone else's Steam market) Here you can speculate. Perhaps apple will develop its platform.

But they CAN play normally, I've already point that out, so your logic is flawed, go away.

[Mad Scientist]

From this thread It's very clear you very much seem to like Apple/Macs.

However, liking an OS does not justify suggesting native support to Valve; as this section is meant to suggest things to Valve for their client, service and site. There are over 60k games on Steam, and this section is almost never read by game developers as it's not their own suggestions section or feedback section in their own game hub for their game(s).

No matter what the survey shows, it's just the OS is insignificant in use to justify any Development, and the whole axing of 32-Bit support shows they are likely to make business decisions that would potentially be a complete loss for Developers, compared to the fact 32-Bit is supported in Windows even for x64 environments.

So a Developer doesn't want to take gambles on a company that could likely cause players to make additional demands, or refund demands, chargebacks etc because the OS company decides to do something without any input which could remove a lot of options for gaming on the OS itself. It's an overly proprietary OS, and often Developing for it has a high cost burden compared to Linux since it is used even less for gaming.

Now factor in the new chips, no one wants to natively target two overly specific conditions compared to environments with countless configurations all revolving around an OS that can handle almost anything installed into it; the focus is on the performance of the strongest operating system for the job or best suited for it. Since the market determines the used OS for gaming; it's currently Windows and the operating system version the Steam Deck uses which has the highest compatibility for games.

Processors are only 1 part, and even then, being of a limited lineup and basically no ability to change is not something sought in a gaming system or to focus on only a single part.

If 2% is MAC, but per-game basis is 0.0% mac users to 0.1% mac users, do you think a Developer sees that as a high profit potential? Because they know it's more of a burden at that point than something that will generate more income than spent on the burden.

Supporting a new CPU is also not likely to happen if the instruction-set is entirely different, again, for 0.0% to 0.1% of people even using the OS and CPU combo that want to play that game on their system is most likely never going to happen unless it's an indie dev and they're feeling generous.

Using standard CPUs and GPUs, having them able to be used in nearly any game as long as they're powerful enough to handle them, is the best solution especially when one OS reigns supreme for the task and is otherwise the most used which is the core paying players that fund development / generate the most income, make the most purchases etc. Thus, they're the core target for Development since they're the most important.


TL;DR. This section is meant to suggest things to Valve for their client, service, or site. Not to game devs that don't use the section.

[ZcorpX]

İlk olarak gagnrad tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak ZcorpX tarafından gönderildi:

I repeat your verdict once again: "because Mac doesn't have a market share" Is just a consequence of the fact that when choosing a mac, people are faced with the situation that they can't play on them normally, so they prefer other windows devices/ Although apple has long been competing in price and quality with any windows device. It is strange that apple itself does not understand the situation with games, and does nothing to change it for the better. Although, perhaps they do not need to develop someone else's Steam market) Here you can speculate. Perhaps apple will develop its platform.

But they CAN play normally, I've already point that out, so your logic is flawed, go away.

The fact that valve can significantly affect apple's sales makes you think about other reasons for everything that happens. Perhaps Valve demanded too much from apple)) There are a couple of ideas to think about. And this conclusion is quite logical.

[gagnrad]

İlk olarak ZcorpX tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak gagnrad tarafından gönderildi:

But they CAN play normally, I've already point that out, so your logic is flawed, go away.

The fact that valve can significantly affect apple's sales makes you think about other reasons for everything that happens. Perhaps Valve demanded too much from apple)) There are a couple of ideas to think about. And this conclusion is quite logical.

Not logical at all. Steam runs on mac. All you need to put your game on Steam is $100. Doesn't matter if it even runs well, Steam don't care and has nothing to do with compatibility with any particular OS.

[ZcorpX]

İlk olarak gagnrad tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak ZcorpX tarafından gönderildi:

The fact that valve can significantly affect apple's sales makes you think about other reasons for everything that happens. Perhaps Valve demanded too much from apple)) There are a couple of ideas to think about. And this conclusion is quite logical.

Not logical at all. Steam runs on mac. All you need to put your game on Steam is $100. Doesn't matter if it even runs well, Steam don't care and has nothing to do with compatibility with any particular OS.

Not logical? Maybe it's not logical that even the Steam launcher itself is not optimized and works worse than in windows under parallels on the same mac? What are you talking about? It seems that Valve specifically makes the very concept of "mac games" a bad idea. And this moment can be traced. Regarding the fact that I wrote the wrong thing, I have a suggestion first of all for Valve to optimize their launcher at least for a start. I am not committed to one system, I have a windows solution, but damn it, I understand perfectly well that new macs are capable of a lot. Even in parallels I can play GTA 5 with 60fps, what can I say about native?

[gagnrad]

İlk olarak ZcorpX tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak gagnrad tarafından gönderildi:

Not logical at all. Steam runs on mac. All you need to put your game on Steam is $100. Doesn't matter if it even runs well, Steam don't care and has nothing to do with compatibility with any particular OS.

Not logical? Maybe it's not logical that even the Steam launcher itself is not optimized and works worse than in windows under parallels on the same mac? What are you talking about? It seems that Valve specifically makes the very concept of "mac games" a bad idea. And this moment can be traced. Regarding the fact that I wrote the wrong thing, I have a suggestion first of all for Valve to optimize their launcher at least for a start. I am not committed to one system, I have a windows solution, but damn it, I understand perfectly well that new macs are capable of a lot. Even in parallels I can play GTA 5 with 60fps, what can I say about native?

That it must have more NATIVELY to do with how restrictive the apple OS software makes writing games and programs that run properly more difficult versus windows, as has been mentioned in prior posts and you continue to ignore.

[ZcorpX]

İlk olarak gagnrad tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak ZcorpX tarafından gönderildi:

Not logical? Maybe it's not logical that even the Steam launcher itself is not optimized and works worse than in windows under parallels on the same mac? What are you talking about? It seems that Valve specifically makes the very concept of "mac games" a bad idea. And this moment can be traced. Regarding the fact that I wrote the wrong thing, I have a suggestion first of all for Valve to optimize their launcher at least for a start. I am not committed to one system, I have a windows solution, but damn it, I understand perfectly well that new macs are capable of a lot. Even in parallels I can play GTA 5 with 60fps, what can I say about native?

That it must have more NATIVELY to do with how restrictive the apple OS software makes writing games and programs that run properly more difficult versus windows, as has been mentioned in prior posts and you continue to ignore.

Because it has nothing to do with reality, I can quote every sentence of the post above and refute it. It's just that these stamps are already boring. For example, the assumption "So a Developer doesn't want to take gambles on a company that could likely cause players to make additional demands, or refund demands, chargebacks etc because the OS company decides to do something without any input which could remove a lot of options for gaming on the OS itself. It's an overly proprietary OS, and often Developing for it has a high cost burden compared to Linux since it is used even less for gaming." It's even worth commenting on every paragraph of the message above, it's not even worth commenting on, these are all myths and speculation. A link to a case where apple tried to influence apps from outside their store?

In general, it doesn't matter, I see that there are no developers here, and even those who had experience in developing on apple / even more so. I am an application developer myself, and I have never encountered any of the above limitations, and I have not met anyone who has. This is all a myth supported by the crowd. Apple recently updated metal from the second to the 3rd version, there are a lot of interesting things for GAME developers. But it doesn't matter to you, you just think that the mac is not

[gagnrad]

İlk olarak ZcorpX tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak gagnrad tarafından gönderildi:

That it must have more NATIVELY to do with how restrictive the apple OS software makes writing games and programs that run properly more difficult versus windows, as has been mentioned in prior posts and you continue to ignore.

Because it has nothing to do with reality, I can quote every sentence of the post above and refute it. It's just that these stamps are already boring. For example, the assumption "So a Developer doesn't want to take gambles on a company that could likely cause players to make additional demands, or refund demands, chargebacks etc because the OS company decides to do something without any input which could remove a lot of options for gaming on the OS itself. It's an overly proprietary OS, and often Developing for it has a high cost burden compared to Linux since it is used even less for gaming." It's even worth commenting on every paragraph of the message above, it's not even worth commenting on, these are all myths and speculation. A link to a case where apple tried to influence apps from outside their store?

In general, it doesn't matter, I see that there are no developers here, and even those who had experience in developing on apple / even more so. I am an application developer myself, and I have never encountered any of the above limitations, and I have not met anyone who has. This is all a myth supported by the crowd. Apple recently updated metal from the second to the 3rd version, there are a lot of interesting things for GAME developers. But it doesn't matter to you, you just think that the mac is not

Right. But the reason I believe that is because I've used both to game for almost 3 decades now and from my personal experience, they just suck at it... but sometimes you take what you can get. Beyond that, the capabilities you describe have likely been available to PC developers for a dozen years now.

[gagnrad]

And probably the best game I played on Mac...

https://store.steampowered.com/app/730820/The_Curse_of_Monkey_Island/

[Mad Scientist]

İlk olarak ZcorpX tarafından gönderildi:

Not logical? Maybe it's not logical that even the Steam launcher itself is not optimized and works worse than in windows under parallels on the same mac? What are you talking about? It seems that Valve specifically makes the very concept of "mac games" a bad idea.

That seems like projecting the dislike of Statistics and real world scenarios to what Valve is doing. Valve doesn't make games not made by Valve, the Developers ultimately choose what Operating System(s) to develop for, Period.

The client works incredibly well unless you have a very old/weak processor that's not capable of handling more than a few browser tabs, social media, and a single youtube video playing.

İlk olarak ZcorpX tarafından gönderildi:

And this moment can be traced. Regarding the fact that I wrote the wrong thing, I have a suggestion first of all for Valve to optimize their launcher at least for a start.

There's frequent fixes and updates. It's as optimized as it's going to be until the next major release.

İlk olarak ZcorpX tarafından gönderildi:

I am not committed to one system, I have a windows solution, but damn it, I understand perfectly well that new macs are capable of a lot. Even in parallels I can play GTA 5 with 60fps, what can I say about native?

Here's a good way to look at it.
You own a VW Bug, and a Semi Tractor. You need to have serious power to haul a load with your trailer in another region. Do you try hauling the Semi Trailer with the VW Bug, or the Semi Tractor which is literally designed for semi trailers?
If you have a known working solution, use it, Windows is designed to work as well as the combination of hardware and software installed onto the machine.

İlk olarak ZcorpX tarafından gönderildi:

I can quote every sentence of the post above and refute it.

Doubt.

İlk olarak ZcorpX tarafından gönderildi:

It's even worth commenting on every paragraph of the message above, it's not even worth commenting on, these are all myths and speculation. A link to a case where apple tried to influence apps from outside their store?

Except it comes from first hand experience let alone general knowledge, so I believe it's more of what you personally desire and less to do with the reality of the subject.

I worked in a place that decided to try getting the MAC market. However, due to the Development costs they had to increase the price of one product by $200 for the product itself as the OS is so proprietary you have to get & do more just to give it a fraction of the functional abilities. Now, especially for a much less chance per game I would have to ask;

Would you be willing to pay $260-450 for a $60 game just to have a mac version?

Because Linux Development is far easier and more likely to happen, especially given the huge success of Valves own Steam Deck which will if anything, massively increase the popularity of Linux in total. Considering the chance for future development of a Steam Machine (not like the old ones), this could as well have very desirable outcomes for Valve and Developers.

İlk olarak ZcorpX tarafından gönderildi:

In general, it doesn't matter, I see that there are no developers here

Which is why if you want to suggest something to a particular Game Developer, you need to Contact the Game Developer themselves since they do not read suggestions to Valve themselves.

There are software Developers here, that use this section, and they are not interested in the thoughts of game development for the mac/m1 combination.

People don't like developing games for proprietary systems especially when the company makes poor decisions in regard to gaming.


I have to ask what your intentions here are, as your only post history is solely about the M1 mac use, there is no other history whatsoever on the forums other than this from the account.

[Black Blade]

Your assumption is wrong from its very base
When I hear people thinking about buying a new PC and considering between a windows/Linux/mac honestly last thing I hear them normally taking to there point is "can it play games"
Thinking that if games where supported on Mac suddenly its market share will boom is completely off

Windows has been the top for Commercial and Home use for a very, very long time, and apply honestly don't have all that much change on there market
Linux did take a nice amount lately. and is growing

Mac is just not going to make it worth it to make games for it, and its not going to grow all that much if there are games for it, because most users just don't care, see it as over priced, don't understand apples system and so on

Your just saying that everyone is wrong and you are right, but where have you pointed to anything? share some info to show it from links and real data

I don't think if developers made games for mac it make it a bigger market all that much, windows PC's are still going to be cheaper over all for what you get
Anyway if Mac wants it, they need to work to make more tools and ability for developers to easily port there games and so on
Valve made Steam Client with the ability to run on mac so beyond that its up to Apple and they game developers to care

[ZcorpX]

İlk olarak Black Blade tarafından gönderildi:

Your assumption is wrong from its very base
When I hear people thinking about buying a new PC and considering between a windows/Linux/mac honestly last thing I hear them normally taking to there point is "can it play games"
Thinking that if games where supported on Mac suddenly its market share will boom is completely off

Windows has been the top for Commercial and Home use for a very, very long time, and apply honestly don't have all that much change on there market
Linux did take a nice amount lately. and is growing

Mac is just not going to make it worth it to make games for it, and its not going to grow all that much if there are games for it, because most users just don't care, see it as over priced, don't understand apples system and so on

Your just saying that everyone is wrong and you are right, but where have you pointed to anything? share some info to show it from links and real data

I don't think if developers made games for mac it make it a bigger market all that much, windows PC's are still going to be cheaper over all for what you get
Anyway if Mac wants it, they need to work to make more tools and ability for developers to easily port there games and so on
Valve made Steam Client with the ability to run on mac so beyond that its up to Apple and they game developers to care

Your opinion in every paragraph is wrong. And the reality is exactly the opposite of your opinion. Look at the surveys, if any, which is important for most people when buying a computer. I didn't mean to offend you in any way, I just think otherwise, according to the information I have, things are the opposite of what you think. About links to information? What kind of information is it that apple does not forbid you to build your application infrastructure in any way, and does not get into payments in any way? That Windows is also a closed system like apple? What links do you want?

[ZcorpX]

İlk olarak gagnrad tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak ZcorpX tarafından gönderildi:

Because it has nothing to do with reality, I can quote every sentence of the post above and refute it. It's just that these stamps are already boring. For example, the assumption "So a Developer doesn't want to take gambles on a company that could likely cause players to make additional demands, or refund demands, chargebacks etc because the OS company decides to do something without any input which could remove a lot of options for gaming on the OS itself. It's an overly proprietary OS, and often Developing for it has a high cost burden compared to Linux since it is used even less for gaming." It's even worth commenting on every paragraph of the message above, it's not even worth commenting on, these are all myths and speculation. A link to a case where apple tried to influence apps from outside their store?

In general, it doesn't matter, I see that there are no developers here, and even those who had experience in developing on apple / even more so. I am an application developer myself, and I have never encountered any of the above limitations, and I have not met anyone who has. This is all a myth supported by the crowd. Apple recently updated metal from the second to the 3rd version, there are a lot of interesting things for GAME developers. But it doesn't matter to you, you just think that the mac is not

Right. But the reason I believe that is because I've used both to game for almost 3 decades now and from my personal experience, they just suck at it... but sometimes you take what you can get. Beyond that, the capabilities you describe have likely been available to PC developers for a dozen years now.

It doesn't matter at all what happened 10-20 years ago. The only important thing is what happened in the very near future, and the technologies that apple presents can make a very big competition for windows / Once again, when everyone compares the performance of the mac on the m series with the performance of windows, do they not take into account that games via rosetta? or parallels windows/ That it is impossible to compare at all. Also, the games do not use the native Metal api from aplle / but are implemented through emulated technologies. And even considering all this, the results are amazing. Yet again. I'm just drawing one conclusion from our dialogue. 2 huge corporations, giants, just haven't agreed yet. Because we cannot deny the fact that Valve can have a huge impact on the number of sales of new macs with new chips. Of course, they would not like to stay on the sidelines and provide such a great service completely free of charge, they would like to be in the share, this is logical. Any more or less successful business should understand what advantages it offers for another business and always ask for a price for it) There are no benefactors here, some predators who are ready not to earn extra money themselves and even lose, but not to let their neighbor develop.