Change or clarify the rules regarding single / multiplayer 'cheats'

[MB]

"post any content on Steam containing ... Cheating" - This post contains no cheats or cheating, it is discussing the history and rule surrounding cheating, there is no 'cheating content' in this post.

1st off, let me point out I am not in any way discussing here any particular cheat, I am discussing the rule about cheats.

PC gaming has a long history of 'cheats' and back in the 8 and 16bit days these cheats were for single player games and were put in to games by the developers themselves. Magazines etc would publish these cheats which typically involved pressing keys in the right order to unlock
said cheat. I can't give any examples because of the forum rules, but I can say that Valves games obviously have cheats built in to them which can freely be used by players.

So, to have a rule which doesn't allow any discussions surrounding this is very sad and overly draconian.

The rule was likely put in place not because of 'cheats' but because of 'hacks' - hacks to multi-player games.

And it's super-ironic that Valve has this rule and then blatantly ignores it every time there is a summer sale, it introduces a game and obviously not only allows but encourages it by the way of never doing anything to stop cheats and making it very easy to cheat. Valve does not make attempts to stop people from cheating en masse during the summer sale. Either Valve should follow it's own rules or it should change the rules. It is very poor to have a rule and only then use that rule in a discriminatory manner, that has a high risk of leading to abuse.

'cheating' in single player games should not be demonized, this cheating has a rich history, and allows fun and creative ways to play games.

Note I have not talked about multi-player games, I have nothing against stopping people from cheating in multi-player games. I think the rule should only include cheating in multi-player games.

The rule should be clarified so as not to cover single player game 'cheats', cheat codes, console commands, glitches etc.

DO NOT discuss any actual cheats here, that is against the rules.

[Crazy Tiger]

Początkowo opublikowane przez MontyB:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Crazy Tiger:

There is no reason to talk about cheats in the Steam-forums and I can imagine that Valve doesn't want talk about cheats in their Valve-gamehubs.

As devs/publishers can set their own rules regarding this subject, why exactly should the overall rules be changed?

So you wouldn't be against the rule being dropped then.

That's not what I said. I'm merely saying that the place to talk about cheats is in gamehubs and not the Steam-forums (cheats have nothing to do with Steam). Valve won't allow talk about cheats in their own gamehubs and devs/publishers can set their own rules.

So I don't see the point of changing the rule.

[MB]

Gaming has gone to the dogs, that fact that that a gaming company that put lots of console commands into it's games to allow gamers to enjoy to then turn around and ban all discussion of those very same commands and to be backed up by fanboy gamers who were in nappies when those commands first starting appearing is really sad and lame.

You're all behaving like I'm asking to be able to cheat and discuss multi-player cheating and then trying to side-step the issue with this strawman rubbish about other peoples gamehubs when that has nothing to do with what I'm asking for - I was not asking for those game hubs to change their rules, I was asking for a rule clarification because there is no good reason why people shouldn't be able to do whateber they want in single player games and I'm not talking about hacking anything here.

[cSg|mc-Hotsauce]

Początkowo opublikowane przez MontyB:

Gaming has gone to the dogs, that fact that that a gaming company that put lots of console commands into it's games to allow gamers to enjoy to then turn around and ban all discussion of those very same commands and to be backed up by fanboy gamers who were in nappies when those commands first starting appearing is really sad and lame.

You're all behaving like I'm asking to be able to cheat and discuss multi-player cheating and then trying to side-step the issue with this strawman rubbish about other peoples gamehubs when that has nothing to do with what I'm asking for - I was not asking for those game hubs to change their rules, I was asking for a rule clarification because there is no good reason why people shouldn't be able to do whateber they want in single player games and I'm not talking about hacking anything here.

Console commands are one thing, you are talking about scripts and other stuff here.

Początkowo opublikowane przez MontyB:

So what about a group that posts Auto-hot-key scripts for use in any game rather than 1 specific game, that's not covered by game-devs, that's covered by Valve. I personally think it should be allowed, often what constitutes a cheat is a grey area in single games.

Remove the pointless ambiguity and just allow discussion of single player game tinkering / cheating - one persons tinkering is another persons cheating and some people are absurdly anti-cheating these days because they don't understand the history of it and because they only know of cheating in multi-player games, cheats like wall-hacks.

Cheats can be non advantageous like make all NPC heads big, or console-fly in a walking simulator. Or cheats can be used to get past sections of game which are either too hard to complete for the player or simply too monotonous and the player would likely quit otherwise. If a person buys a game it should be up to them how they play that game (single-player) and there shouldn't be a ban-hammer hanging over anyone wanting to discuss that. Technically, there is a section on every game for cheats called guides. So really it is silly to on one hand solicit cheats whilst on the other hand threatening to ban anyone for discussing them.

[Crazy Tiger]

Początkowo opublikowane przez MontyB:

Gaming has gone to the dogs, that fact that that a gaming company that put lots of console commands into it's games to allow gamers to enjoy to then turn around and ban all discussion of those very same commands and to be backed up by fanboy gamers who were in nappies when those commands first starting appearing is really sad and lame.

You're making assumptions there regarding the age of people.

Początkowo opublikowane przez MontyB:

You're all behaving like I'm asking to be able to cheat and discuss multi-player cheating and then trying to side-step the issue with this strawman rubbish about other peoples gamehubs when that has nothing to do with what I'm asking for - I was not asking for those game hubs to change their rules, I was asking for a rule clarification because there is no good reason why people shouldn't be able to do whateber they want in single player games and I'm not talking about hacking anything here.

Nobody is saying people shouldn't do in singleplayer whatever they want. Nobody is stopping them either. We're just saying why it's highly unlikely that there will be a change (or clarification how you name it) in the rules.

You were also talking about scripts, though. Which is external and quite different from console commands a dev put in the game.

And the gamehubs have everything to do with it, as those forums are the forums where talk about cheats could be relevant.

[Crashed]

How about this?
For the purpose of the rules, "Cheats" shall mean any software, scripts, modifications, or other means intended to create an unfair advantage during online matchmaking. "Cheats" shall not include any such means when they only affect single-player gameplay.

[Brujeira]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Crashed:

How about this?
For the purpose of the rules, "Cheats" shall mean any software, scripts, modifications, or other means intended to create an unfair advantage during online matchmaking. "Cheats" shall not include any such means when they only affect single-player gameplay.

The SSA says that it covers everything (including single player gameplay) and you agreed to it. Any questions?

[Crashed]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Brujeira:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Crashed:

How about this?
For the purpose of the rules, "Cheats" shall mean any software, scripts, modifications, or other means intended to create an unfair advantage during online matchmaking. "Cheats" shall not include any such means when they only affect single-player gameplay.

The SSA says that it covers everything (including single player gameplay) and you agreed to it. Any questions?

This is the Suggestions forum.

[Brujeira]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Crashed:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Brujeira:

The SSA says that it covers everything (including single player gameplay) and you agreed to it. Any questions?

This is the Suggestions forum.

And if you want the terms of a legally binding contract (like the SSA) to change then you'd better come up with a pretty good reason why. To be honest, this reason just doesn't cut it.

[Crashed]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Brujeira:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Crashed:

This is the Suggestions forum.

And if you want the terms of a legally binding contract (like the SSA) to change then you'd better come up with a pretty good reason why. To be honest, this reason just doesn't cut it.

I don't see a green username and Valve logo on the post, so your reply is non-binding.

[Brujeira]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Crashed:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Brujeira:

And if you want the terms of a legally binding contract (like the SSA) to change then you'd better come up with a pretty good reason why. To be honest, this reason just doesn't cut it.

I don't see a green username and Valve logo on the post, so your reply is non-binding.

Ah, but my opinion doesn't count. Yours does though... and you agreed to the SSA earlier today when you activated your latest bundle. I guess that means you're OK with it, right?

Well, not necessarily but that's how contract law tends to work. You want free rein to discuss external programs/modifications that don't affect multiplayer? The SSA needs to be changed then. Only two reasons for that to happen:

1. You give Valve a damned good business reason to change it voluntarily, or...
2. You prove that part of the SSA is actually illegal rendering the whole thing null and void unless it's changed.

Take your pick.

[76561198407601200]

Początkowo opublikowane przez MontyB:

Gaming has gone to the dogs, that fact that that a gaming company that put lots of console commands into it's games to allow gamers to enjoy to then turn around and ban all discussion of those very same commands and to be backed up by fanboy gamers who were in nappies when those commands first starting appearing is really sad and lame.

You're all behaving like I'm asking to be able to cheat and discuss multi-player cheating and then trying to side-step the issue with this strawman rubbish about other peoples gamehubs when that has nothing to do with what I'm asking for - I was not asking for those game hubs to change their rules, I was asking for a rule clarification because there is no good reason why people shouldn't be able to do whateber they want in single player games and I'm not talking about hacking anything here.

Gaming itself has nothing to do with the forums. They could shun cheats on the forum, but if the game allows console cheats (ie: sv_cheats 1), then I'll use them when I please. It is clear that steam forums isn't meant for what you're wanting to discuss, so find a different forum that does.

[NS Plover]

I have to admit that I find the rules for "cheating" not clear when I look at what happened with the saliens game during the summer sale. Was this considered a single player game or a multi player game? People were running scripts (and scripts are software) that let them win battles without them actually having to play the game. Wasn't this cheating? Was it OK with Steam?

I don't play multiplayer games but when I see something like this - I'm left feeling confused about the rules...

[cSg|mc-Hotsauce]

Salien cheaters were branded in the code as cheaters on their accounts.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/8w4vpi/valve_knows_you_cheated_in_saliens/

[NS Plover]

Początkowo opublikowane przez cSg|mc-Hotsauce:

Salien cheaters were branded in the code as cheaters on their accounts.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/8w4vpi/valve_knows_you_cheated_in_saliens/

:qr:

not sure what "branded in the code" means? Anyway - I remember at the time many people on the forums were saying that it was ok. So were people actually VAC banned - it's not clear from the reddit post...

[The Giving One]

The SSA says :

https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#4

4. ONLINE CONDUCT, CHEATING AND ILLEGAL BEHAVIOR ⏶

You acknowledge and agree that either Valve or any online multiplayer host may refuse to allow you to participate in certain online multiplayer games if you use Cheats in connection with Steam or the Content and Services.

Seems very clear to me. Did one use cheats with the Steam content and services ?

Note that sentence at the end said nothing about single player or multiplayer.

It simply said you can be banned in multiplayer games by the host (developer) IF you use cheats with any Steam content and/or services (games).

Bots, cats, dogs, single player, multiplayer, co-op.......

All totally irrelevant. No cheating, whatsoever.

Period.