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we already had that fact. Talking to our government isn't that easy. We already ruled that option out. Please don't recommend things that simply don't work here.
If you wanna know more search for an article in english about the german article 13 / article 17 debate. Then you know, what we are dealing with.
Kilesengati: Please stop spouting nonsense about: Germans don't wanna have rights. You don't know anything how it is to live here, you don't know much about our politics or what's going on. You can say that it 'seems' to you that way, but don't mark is a fact because in this case I just have to tell you as a German: you are wrong.
Simply as that. -.-
Also this gets way to political.
Brian: yes, you. Thanks for being way more polite. (I really mean it.)
And slowly I really hoping that more countries get into trouble and have strict laws. In that way they would react much faster. -.-
And yes, I know it's mean, but hoping for that would be much faster than the german government changing laws. Believe me...
I am German and I'm not oblivious to the problems. However, I'm an Easterner living in the East for my entire life, having almost exclusively Eastern peers with a sentiment towards government authority heavily influenced by the East's history and in this forum I refrain from digging out the stereotypes many Easterners have about Westerners.
Indeed.
But I still have to disagree with you about Germans don't wanna have rights. :) At least from my perspective.
I'm not sure if there is a misunderstanding, but I argued that the German people want to have rights, but are more passible than some of their neighbours when they get deprived of their rights.
We may or may not disagree, but that's fine. Bear up!
Anyway, I'd like to see this thread move back to topic.
People really need to understand that the issue of certain content not being available via Steam's German storefront (and of other distributors as well) is not being solved by handing over your personal information and giving companies and the government insight into your preferences, but rather looking for alternatives that let you consume these types of media anonymously. Even if the stuff you are into is legal and socially acceptable today, it may not be tomorrow. Everything you do on here and most places on the Internet is kept on permanent record. The Internet never forgets, hence anonymity is key to protect you from malicious actors gaining possible future kompromat on you. Less data of you out there means more freedom for you and your loved ones now and in the future.
Don‘t selling the game in the Steamstore is one side because they don’t have a proper age verification process but blocking keys is another. As adult you can legally buy any game it doesn’t matter if rated 18, unrated (also rated 18), indexed (adults only with commercial and sales restriction) or „banned“ for violence which isn‘t technically banned because import, buying and owning is also legal for adults. The paragraph even states this.
You also have to divide between buying physical games (on discs or gamekeys) and digital games (on digital stores like GOG, Steam and so on) as those are two separate youth protection laws.
It is also well known that Steam sets regionlocks to gamekeys even if not wanted by the devs as example Hatred, Dying Light Hellraid and a few others. You can buy Dying Light Hellraid in German online stores but Steam regionlocked the keys and didn’t removed the regionlock when the devs requested it. The funny part is there is an option to regionlock games for the store but not for keys which Valve used with their own games L4D and L4D2.
Besides that isn’t this a forum for suggestions and a age verification is a suggestion so there is nothing wrong with it. I also don’t understand why people from other countries always bring up the government or law stuff when it comes to this topic even when they don’t know much about it. A age verification from Steam is a suggestion demanded by many German players.
To stay on topic:
A age verification is the only legal way to sell most of those games digital in Germany and Valve could finance it with an extra fee like it is the case when you order adult only games or movies in physical form (costs are 5€ extra).
Why most and not all? Games banned by a court decision can‘t be sold digital as example Silent Hill Homecoming couldn’t be sold in a digital store. For this games you would need to buy them physical and activate them because that is legal.
Another option would be a separate client which would be the easiest. So you would need to to verify your age every time you login and would have access to the EU store within that client. People who wouldn’t want this could use the normal client and the normal website.
Not very often having a good time with you but even I completely agree with anything you said there.
I mean I am not a family type of person really. So I don't give a shoot about whether or not full nudity is publically viewable or not. But in general I see the itching that comes up for some people. However propper age-verification systems are nothing that is only applicable in Germany as well as it is not only about nudity and I don't see why people like that one have to go full deafened. I really think they are just doing so for being contra.
My bad, I think I got it wrong. So I apologize.
Geez are you blind?
It's not much but anything beyond that gets rather expensive and complicated. For some reason that's enough. Even for the Nanny state that is AUstralia.
So basically you germans can't or won't put pressure on your officials.
Did you forget at somepoint that the government serves the people., not rule them.
This isn't a Monarchy...you have elections don't you?
What might be more honest to say is. TYou know there aren't enough of you on that side of the debate to make any impact which is yah problem, Not Valve's, not anyone else's. I mean if there aren't enough of ye to make even a low level politician sweat then there aren't enough of you to make the investment of time and resources on Valve's part worth it.
Not likely See some countries have very active citizens that will throw a tire festival if you mess with their porn, booze, or trty to get them to take life saving vaccines.
You guys elected your government and you can unelect them if there are really that many of you who are aggainst this. If there aren't well then. You are a minority of a minority.and not a particularly significantcontributor to the bottom line.
Yeah and that's kinda where parents come in.
Yeah because the dev did not supply sufficient ratings credentials for those regions.
How are you so sure about that M8?
The discussion of suggestions. Not the Agree with every suggestion a person brain-farts out. There's a difference and the simple issue here is the problem isn't Valve. It's systems work well enough for every other country...even China...It's Germany that's being the hold out. and in the case of Germany it's basically more cost effective to just not sell the games.
And those players should demand it of their government.
And Valve already has a system in place for that, SImply put what Valve would likely spend to enact such a system for the sake of a minority of german gamers (who themselves are a rather small percentage of steam's revenue stream) isn't worth it. When a merchant decides its more cost effective NBot to sell to a particular group...that's just it.
I mean In my country, ever since regulations got put in place regarding the sale of cigs, many supermarkets, stores, and pharmacies just opted to not sell them. Because it wasn't finnancially worth it to go through tthe hoops for something that was a very small part of their revenue.
Still costs money and time (which is more money). NOw CValve did that foir China because China, that's a helluva market with lots of revenue to come in. Germany.. is not China.
ANd how would that be anymore effective than the current age gate?
Reduced to the interesting bits.
A "discussion" involves at least two parties actually talking with each other. If you choose to completely ignore anything anyone said and keep repeating the same pointless sentences you neither discuss anything nor add anything of worth.
I don't care whether Americans, French, Chinese, or Martians chime in on here. But drivel like that is simply unneeded.
That's not how it works m8.
Oh hello Mr. Pot. I didn't see you there.
Look let me break it down.
- Valve clearly does not see it as something worth investing in. Valve is a business. their actions and inactions are dictated by the almighty dollar. If they did, they would. As evidenced by what they've done with China.
- There aren't enough of you in your own country to even make one of your politicians or party want to take it up apparently.
- So you basically lack the spending power to make it worth while to Valve at the moment. And you lack the political leverage to stir change or even meaningful action in your own political system.
Explain again why Valve should invest in the tiome and money to jump through your government's mandated 'hoops' again?Because it sounds like you're doing the equivalent of trying to pay Jeff Bezos $20 to mow your lawn.
I mean I suppose Valve could just copy and paste their plans for CHina over to Germany. Facial recognition systems, and all, but again, Germany isn't spending China levels of money. It boils down to cold hard Marks. And uin the time since they made the change they haven'ts een enough of a change in their revenue from your region to make them reconsider...apparently.
sorry for the delay.
Which is also the case in Germany as the paragraphs 131 (Depictions of violence) and 184 (Dissemination of pornography) of the German criminal code have exceptions not only for adults but also for parents who could also let their children play such games.
You don't need a rating in Germany have a look at the official German Rating Board for Videogames USK. Unrated means rated 18.
Offical quote from the rating board
Regarding the index
I have private information from developers as I was admin of a group which demanded an age verification for Germany and was in contact with a few devs. I can't show you these because those were private chats but have a look here
https://de.gamesplanet.com/community/dying-light-enhanced-edition-steam-key--2670-5/discussions/239487-dying-light-hellraid-key-laesst-sich-bei-steam-nicht
This is a official German store which gets gamekeys from publishers and sells them. The discussion is about Dying Light: Hellraid.
The quote
The staff says that they are in contact with Techland to remove the regionlock but Techland says that Valve doesn't really react to it (the regionlock is still in place).
I will look for the other public examples from Hatred and a few others and post them later.
Edit here from Hatred. The guy was a developer at the time of the post.
From a Steam Moderator regarding this matter
China has it's own limited store and Valve has a branch in Hamburg (Germany). If you want to sell stuff in a country you have to obey the laws and since children can buy even rated 18 games as you pointed out because the Steamgift cards have no age rating (unlike PSN which are rated 18 in Germany) atm it doesn't follow the laws (or follows them half to be correct).
Germany is the biggest market in the EU and of course part of the EU. Regionlock gamekeys because of a paragraph which doesn't exist as you can read above is a no-go. And Steam was already fined once for violating EU law.
The current age verification is only for USK rated and unrated games (Valve also removed the unrated adult only games). Indexed games can only be sold in a digital store via a closed usergroup.
Closed usergroup means verify your age when you log in or verify it once.
But to be clear I can live with a limited store like it is today as I don't buy most of my games digital. But if I buy a game physical in a store within Germany or within the EU there is no need to regionlock that key for Germany (which Steam does on its own in most cases) as the law clearly states I'am allowed to buy such games.
For SRun:
So, what's your suggestion for us?
That we should just stop to try making suggestions and just do - nothing?
That we just keep quiet about everything and don't say what we don't like anymore about Valve?
Besides what you wrote about: So basically you germans can't or won't put pressure... and so on.
The mass won't unelect the government because of one rule they don't like while the others are fine as they are. Electing and unelecting someone is not as easy as you think it is.
But this is far too complicated, far too political and faaar too off topic to discuss in this thread.
Cinedine also stated it again: Repeating the same option over and over that we've already ruled out as possible isn't going to help.
So please. Tell us what to do besides talking to our government. I'm really interested to hear your new suggestions.
And NO! We don't feel like talking to us is only by agreeing to us.
We are here to get opinions and options. If you say: An age gate won't work, it's fine. But then maybe you could make another suggestion that will actually work for us.
But basically you are telling us to shut up, take it, or whatever.
That we won't accept something like that so easy should be understandable.
Up until now we don't had any 'really good' reasons to give up on the age verification system.
...
It may take a while so be patient - okay, accepted.
They don't have the money. - Sorry, can't believe that until Valve states it themselves and what they would use the money for instead. (Like implementing something for the whole world and afterwards care for Germany)
They simply don't care about us. - Whaaat? Okay, this is unreasonable and therefore unacceptable.
Valve saying: We just don't want to do anything. - Okay, as long as you are adamant to do nothing, I can be adamant in asking and there is no rule that keeps me from doing so.
If we aren't matter now constantly asking 'can' (not have to) make it matter by some time.
And I could write much more but I already stated all of this before so I'm tired to do it again and this is - again - much too long.
Oh, and by the way - as I understand it you are against an age verification system. Is that correct? Well in that case I have to wonder why?
My suggestion... pressure your Government. Last I checked Germany had an elected government. Withhold your support and votes from the party/officials that do not heed you, and give it to the one that does.
You can also boycott steam by not purchasing any game from steam or steam keys for a year or two. All Steam games because apparently the revenue loss of not selling porn to Germany for the last year or so has not had enough of an impact on regional revenue to stir Valve to action.
Assuming Valve isn't already working on something. One of those methods should yield either results or a revelation.
Then you are left with Boycotting Steam, for a year or so.
If you can't affect your government and you can affect the bottom line of the company ion any meaningful way.. then you will have a rather clear understanding of why things are the way they are.
If you have no ability to do either then you might understand why it just might not be worth the time and money on their end. Reality of the world. And you can use that reality to work towards something.
China is a big enough market to make it worth their while to jump through as many hoops as the government requires. Other countries have enough control and sway over their own government to curb and encourage compromise. Some countries have both factors in their favour.
Remember Valve is a business. Businesses boil down to money. SHow that they will either lose money by not doing this (which apparently you've done terribly at this last year), or that they stand to make more money than they'll spend developing a verification platform that works to your government's satsifaction. (whichpretty much implies doing the first thing so again you've done a rather bad job of that this year).
You can make your presence felt in ranting and pleading on a forum they don't have to look at, in a thread they can igniore, OR you can endeavour to make your presence felt on their balance sheet which they have to look at and they can't ignore.
Or you can do both. So get to it and Best of luck to ye.
There's also the idea that a solution is already in the works but 'valve Time'. So yeah maybe in the next couple years.
Seriously, I liked what you wrote. And I hope SR will still answer you since you put a lot of effort in this post with lots of information. I'm really impressed of people who know what they are doing.
And until he answers, take it from Big Bangs Sheldon: Na Naaa. *Schulter patt*
*drop*
Me to SR: Offer something besides asking government.
SR: Ask your government.
Me: *drop*
SRun: Oookay reading all your great ideas I think I'm going with: I'm continuing to ask Valve about a solution.
Or do you have a solution that 'really' helps?
Philco: I'm too tired to answer that. I don't know if I should laugh or cry reading your posts or if I should just smash my head on the desk or at the wall.