Please implement an (optional) age verification system

[Tomandandy]

My issue is that I live in Germany and the local laws make it impossible for me to purchase any game tagged as adult-only or let alone see the store page for said games.
Unfortunately the current method of verifying your age in steam, simply selecting your date of birth, is not considered sufficient to officially verify your age by German laws.
So what I would propose is the option for users to upload a photo of their ID to verify their age in an official way. That way users from Germany could once again access the whole steam store and steam would gain more customers as well. If this function stayed completely optional, it wouldn't cause harm to anybody.

I have also contacted steam support about this issue and was told I should make a thread about it in here, so here we are. Please consider my request.

[Nx Machina]

cinedine の投稿を引用：

And you'd be mistaken ...

There is not even a requirement to have something 100 % verified. There is a little phrase that is applicable: "beyond reasonable doubt".
As said, plenty of solutions out there. Ranging from PostIdent to a simple checksum verification.

"Beyond reasonable doubt" literally means proven, 100% proven, no doubt as to the outcome.

[cinedine]

Nx Machina の投稿を引用：

cinedine の投稿を引用：

And you'd be mistaken ...

There is not even a requirement to have something 100 % verified. There is a little phrase that is applicable: "beyond reasonable doubt".
As said, plenty of solutions out there. Ranging from PostIdent to a simple checksum verification.

"Beyond reasonable doubt" literally means proven, 100% proven, no doubt as to the outcome.

No, it means what it says on the tin. That there is no other reasonable explanation given the evidence. Because even the most backwards legal system knows that there can't be 100 % certainty.
And that's for criminal convictions, not for a bloody age verification system. You make up problems where there are none.

[Start_Running]

Tito Shivan の投稿を引用：

Snakub Plissken の投稿を引用：

Valve is aware Germany exists and is currently complying with German law by blocking those games. They have been for a while now.

So I think it's just a question of high how a priority your request is, versus the cost to implement against the value of the revenue that would be gained. There's probably also questions about how they would have to store that data and how accountable to even more laws they would have to be.

If it was cheap and easy and valuable, Valve would have done it I'm sure. Seeing as they haven't, there might be some issues that "optional" doesn't address.

TLDR: it's a cost/benefit issue.

Probably the cost of implementing whatever goverment-supported age verification system (And they can be a PITA to adopt) outweights the revenue they were getting from selling the now 'forbidden' games.

Not much different than when a developer decides not to sell on a certain region o translate their game to a certain language(s).

And Valve has had a full fiscal year's worth of data to weigh on that matter..
I

[Count_Dandyman]

cinedine の投稿を引用：

Nx Machina の投稿を引用：

"Beyond reasonable doubt" literally means proven, 100% proven, no doubt as to the outcome.

No, it means what it says on the tin. That there is no other reasonable explanation given the evidence. Because even the most backwards legal system knows that there can't be 100 % certainty.
And that's for criminal convictions, not for a bloody age verification system. You make up problems where there are none.

Someone underage is using their relatives/friends/fake ID to access what they shouldn't is always a reasonable doubt and the reality is the cut off point to remove that doubt is a lot higher than what you want it to be especially when dealing with a case where you never physically meet or see that person.

[Nx Machina]

cinedine の投稿を引用：

No, it means what it says on the tin. That there is no other reasonable explanation given the evidence. Because even the most backwards legal system knows that there can't be 100 % certainty.
And that's for criminal convictions, not for a bloody age verification system. You make up problems where there are none.

It was you who chose to bring beyond reasonable doubt into the conversation.

"Beyond reasonable doubt" - The evidence is fully satisfied, all the facts are proven.

While you ignore Germany's very strict pornography laws which is why Valve stance is what it is. Been anti Valve, Steam as you are does not alter that fact.

You also brought the EU into the conversation yet the restriction does not apply to other EU member states.

[Start_Running]

Nx Machina の投稿を引用：

cinedine の投稿を引用：

No, it means what it says on the tin. That there is no other reasonable explanation given the evidence. Because even the most backwards legal system knows that there can't be 100 % certainty.
And that's for criminal convictions, not for a bloody age verification system. You make up problems where there are none.

It was you who chose to bring beyond reasonable doubt into the conversation.

"Beyond reasonable doubt" -The evidence is fully satisfied, all the facts are proven.

While you ignore Germany's very strict pornography laws which is why Valve stance is what it is. Been as you are anti Valve, Steam does not alter that fact.

You also brought the EU into the conversation yet the restriction does not apply to other EU member states.

Worth noting that the word 'reasonable' is a particularly slippery word and any situation that it is used requires extremely precise definition.

WHat one person considers reasonable is going to be unreasonable to another. And not surprisingly the threshold for reasonable varies depends heavily on which side the person aligns to.

Most countries realuize in the case of Id you either require a web cam and facial verification to along with everything else, maybe with another biometric methiod. and thusly this becomes a great headache.

HEnce why most leave it at a statement of age from the user.

[Brian9824]

In this case it would be whatever Germany's laws seem reasonable, but any integration to meet their standards or to integrate with an already approved vendor has costs.

So again as repeatedly stated the valid solution might be to do nothing.

In that case people need to express their unhappiness with germanies draconic laws

[Count_Dandyman]

brian9824 の投稿を引用：

In this case it would be whatever Germany's laws seem reasonable, but any integration to meet their standards or to integrate with an already approved vendor has costs.

So again as repeatedly stated the valid solution might be to do nothing.

In that case people need to express their unhappiness with germanies draconic laws

And its not just monetary costs of complying with that one section of law that need considering you have to thread the needle between the strict and high requirements for verification on that law and the restrictions on the GDPR side about how much you can, request, store and use from the user and how much information you can get from other sources to verify that information especially if you are a company based outside the EU.

[Start_Running]

brian9824 の投稿を引用：

In this case it would be whatever Germany's laws seem reasonable, but any integration to meet their standards or to integrate with an already approved vendor has costs.

So again as repeatedly stated the valid solution might be to do nothing.

In that case people need to express their unhappiness with germanies draconic laws

But such people complain that they can't do anything because they are a minority of a minority. Which unsurprisingly answers why Valve is more apt to leave it as it stands.
They've had a year to see how the change has impacted their regional revenue and apparently it's impact has not been enough to be considered statistically noteworthy.

[DC-GS]

Start_Running の投稿を引用：

They've had a year to see how the change has impacted their regional revenue and apparently it's impact has not been enough to be considered statistically noteworthy.

It honestly doesnt affect the users as much as some might think.
I still see a lot of adults games on Steam. Cant name a single major game missing.

My guess is, it only impact really extreme adult games. So the lost sales are negligible.

[Brian9824]

DC-GS の投稿を引用：

Start_Running の投稿を引用：

They've had a year to see how the change has impacted their regional revenue and apparently it's impact has not been enough to be considered statistically noteworthy.

It honestly doesnt affect the users as much as some might think.
I still see a lot of adults games on Steam. Cant name a single major game missing.

My guess is, it only impact really extreme adult games. So the lost sales are negligible.

I think someone pointed out a few games were included (possibly dying light 1) as well, but yeah 99% of the games are excluded from it.

[Mad Scientist]

As that other huge thread about germany and adult-only or other mature games;

They told a user they are working on it, which means in Valve Time.

[Start_Running]

Mr. Gentlebot の投稿を引用：

As that other huge thread about germany and adult-only or other mature games;

They told a user they are working on it, which means in Valve Time.

Working on it...
Doesn't necessarily mean working towards the user's preferred solution.

[Mad Scientist]

Start_Running の投稿を引用：

Mr. Gentlebot の投稿を引用：

As that other huge thread about germany and adult-only or other mature games;

They told a user they are working on it, which means in Valve Time.

Working on it...
Doesn't necessarily mean working towards the user's preferred solution.

Which is irrelevant since they're making a solution that, legally, applies to users from that country.

[Brian9824]

Mr. Gentlebot の投稿を引用：

Start_Running の投稿を引用：

Working on it...
Doesn't necessarily mean working towards the user's preferred solution.

Which is irrelevant since they're making a solution that, legally, applies to users from that country.

I think what was meant is the final solution might very well be just not selling those games in Germany.

It's an entirely plausible scenario. Sometimes the costs to sell certain items outweigh the benefits. Now its just one possibility, only time will tell what the exact solution is.