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Shame 2020년 1월 16일 오후 12시 48분
DRM-free games
I think it's safe to say people are going to move over to buy games from GOG if they are available there more and more. They have high discounts just like Steam, if not even higher and more frequent, not to mention a higher product quality and customer-satisfaction ethic.

If Valve wants to compete and keep on top as a PC game distributor, they should allow you to actually own your games and get them DRM-free. Then where you buy your game from would be a case of which one has it first or which one can sell it to you for cheaper at a given time (depends entirely on what the customer is looking for and when).

Otherwise GOG always wins in the long-term. May be that's a good thing, but yeah, I probably won't be buying any more games through Steam if DRM is just going to stay here. But don't think about going the "exclusive" route, cause that's just gonna make things worse for you, Valve. I would love to get Mario Maker 2, but I am not getting a Switch just to play that, so unless your games become DRM-free in the future, I'm just getting games from GOG when they are available.
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Spawn of Totoro 2020년 1월 16일 오후 2시 03분 
Shame님이 먼저 게시:
Also an additional question; is it possible for a developer to change whether the game requires DRM or being DRM-free?

Yes, it is. They can simply update their game to be DRM free at any time.
Tony Ford 2020년 1월 16일 오후 2시 03분 
I could care less about DRM personally. I wish that all my games were on steam so that I could keep up with them better. Be nice is Fallout 76 would transfer to Steam so I could actually talk to friends without being forced to voice with everyone & no contact outside the game.
Shame 2020년 1월 16일 오후 2시 08분 
AWFordJr님이 먼저 게시:
I could care less about DRM personally. I wish that all my games were on steam so that I could keep up with them better. Be nice is Fallout 76 would transfer to Steam so I could actually talk to friends without being forced to voice with everyone & no contact outside the game.
GOG Galaxy may have you covered in the future, but only time will tell. There is no way Fallout 76 is coming to Steam after all the ♥♥♥♥ Bethesda went through with it.
MoonC A T 2020년 1월 16일 오후 2시 09분 
Shame님이 먼저 게시:
I then stand corrected concerning DRM on steam then; I simply figured that because so few games on steam have DRM-free versions, all games sold on steam require to have DRM
No, otherwise Family Share would not be a thing.
Spawn of Totoro 2020년 1월 16일 오후 2시 10분 
Shame님이 먼저 게시:
GOG Galaxy may have you covered in the future, but only time will tell. There is no way Fallout 76 is coming to Steam after all the ♥♥♥♥ Bethesda went through with it.

https://www.polygon.com/2019/3/25/18281063/doom-eternal-fallout-76-youngblood-pc-steam-version-release-date

They are actually planning on doing just that, though I doubt they will allow a transfer. More likely people will have to re-purchase.
Spawn of Totoro 님이 마지막으로 수정; 2020년 1월 16일 오후 2시 11분
RemyXIII® 2020년 1월 16일 오후 2시 12분 
Shame님이 먼저 게시:

@DA|Astelan you mentioned that Epic's model isn't sustainable, what did you mean by that?
Giving away free games...frequently
Shame 2020년 1월 16일 오후 2시 15분 
MoonCAT님이 먼저 게시:
Shame님이 먼저 게시:
I then stand corrected concerning DRM on steam then; I simply figured that because so few games on steam have DRM-free versions, all games sold on steam require to have DRM
No, otherwise Family Share would not be a thing.
How is that connected? Though I forgot to mention; if a game you bought on steam is set as DRM-free, then how can you launch it without requiring Steam? Any game examples? Is it some form of setting that you can change? I'm not quite sure.

Spawn of Totoro님이 먼저 게시:
Shame님이 먼저 게시:
GOG Galaxy may have you covered in the future, but only time will tell. There is no way Fallout 76 is coming to Steam after all the ♥♥♥♥ Bethesda went through with it.

https://www.polygon.com/2019/3/25/18281063/doom-eternal-fallout-76-youngblood-pc-steam-version-release-date

They are actually planning on doing just that.
Well, ♥♥♥♥. I figured if they continued doing the ♥♥♥♥ that they have been, if it got on Steam it would have been booted off soon after. Not sure why I thought that would be the case.

DA|Astelan님이 먼저 게시:
Shame님이 먼저 게시:

@DA|Astelan you mentioned that Epic's model isn't sustainable, what did you mean by that?
Giving away free games...frequently
As free as a DRM will allow it, but I can see now how that is not sustainable. It's like putting a cheese cuisine on a gigantic but clearly-visible mouse trap, how are people falling for this?
Shame 님이 마지막으로 수정; 2020년 1월 16일 오후 2시 18분
Start_Running 2020년 1월 16일 오후 2시 20분 
Shame님이 먼저 게시:
I think it's safe to say people are going to move over to buy games from GOG if they are available there more and more. They have high discounts just like Steam, if not even higher and more frequent, not to mention a higher product quality and customer-satisfaction ethic.
Which GoG are you looking it. Their Sale prices are (at least for me) no better than Steams (wghich makes sense because its fgenerallty the same publishers setting the prices on boths stores). Higher Product Quality....Again Which GoG you looking at. Never mind that there are very few games on GoG that you won't also find on Steam. You can also add the fact that they have a laughably smaller catalog which of course means fewer options for their customer's entertainment choices.


If Valve wants to compete and keep on top as a PC game distributor, they should allow you to actually own your games and get them DRM-free.
So you want Valve to bejust like GoG and not have publishers pyut their catalogs up.
Look. Valve and GGoG started more or less the same time. The differences in their standings is a direct result of the relations either have had with their business partners.

Why should Valve adopt the tactics and methods of the guy that consistently places a distant second.

Otherwise GOG always wins in the long-term.
GGoG has never won since they started so yeah.. thats a looooong-term.

I'm just getting games from GOG when they are available.
Good luck just realize there's many games you will never see on Gog..

And lets be frank here. DRM-Free is kinda a non-issue since the vase majority of people have no problem with steam's drm Offline mode works more or less when you need it to There are actyuaklly quiote a few games that are DRM-Free and do not require steam to launch.
Start_Running 님이 마지막으로 수정; 2020년 1월 16일 오후 2시 25분
MoonC A T 2020년 1월 16일 오후 2시 21분 
Shame님이 먼저 게시:
MoonCAT님이 먼저 게시:
No, otherwise Family Share would not be a thing.
How is that connected?
Games that use a 3rd part DRM are not shareable in Steam because of the additional license restrictions. If all Steam games were DRM this would make the Family Share function non existent.

i.e. Far Cry series

you can see your own list here at the bottom https://store.steampowered.com/account/managedevices/?showexcluded=1
MoonC A T 님이 마지막으로 수정; 2020년 1월 16일 오후 2시 24분
Shame 2020년 1월 16일 오후 3시 13분 
Start_Running님이 먼저 게시:
Which GoG are you looking it. Their Sale prices are (at least for me) no better than Steams (wghich makes sense because its fgenerallty the same publishers setting the prices on boths stores). Higher Product Quality....Again Which GoG you looking at. Never mind that there are very few games on GoG that you won't also find on Steam. You can also add the fact that they have a laughably smaller catalog which of course means fewer options for their customer's entertainment choices.
High product quality ethic, is what I was trying to say, simply because of the DRM-free game distribution, no strings attached. At least to me, if the game has no DRM, it is automatically a better product.

Start_Running님이 먼저 게시:
So you want Valve to bejust like GoG and not have publishers pyut their catalogs up.
Look. Valve and GGoG started more or less the same time. The differences in their standings is a direct result of the relations either have had with their business partners.

Why should Valve adopt the tactics and methods of the guy that consistently places a distant second.
Real annoying that, because games being DRM-free would encourage more sales; the developer gets their money, while the customer gets their game without DRM circumventing the use of a game. A lot of people just tend to resort to you-know-what because legitimate customers can get screwed over due to DRM.

Start_Running님이 먼저 게시:
GGoG has never won since they started so yeah.. thats a looooong-term.
If for whatever reason a platform like Steam has its servers shut down, disabling the use of pretty much any games you had on there, that would for sure make more people interested in getting games DRM-free. But I guess only time will tell.

Start_Running님이 먼저 게시:
I'm just getting games from GOG when they are available.
Good luck just realize there's many games you will never see on Gog..

And lets be frank here. DRM-Free is kinda a non-issue since the vase majority of people have no problem with steam's drm Offline mode works more or less when you need it to There are actyuaklly quiote a few games that are DRM-Free and do not require steam to launch.
Offline only works with a single account, to my knowledge, and even then Steam has prevented me from going offline mode, in particular when I had Steam Guard turned off. Not as safe as it looks.
Crazy Tiger 2020년 1월 16일 오후 4시 15분 
Shame님이 먼저 게시:
Crazy Tiger님이 먼저 게시:
I've been using GoG for years and no, their catalog isn't substantial. Personally I merely use it for retro games as those versions often are better, which is logical considering the background of GoG. But other than that, no, not a big catalog.

They limit themselves with their DRM-free stance. They won't do better over time unless they make radical changes. The fact that they aren't doing well financially also shows that being DRM-free isn't enough of a unique selling point. Now with the Epic store buying themselves a place in the market, it'll only become harder for GoG to keep its place.
Why would Epic be doing well? Stupid exclusive crap? Well that's an instant no-thank-you from me. PC was standing out as something that had no exclusives, unlike any console in existence, but now Epic is bridging that gap?

@DA|Astelan you mentioned that Epic's model isn't sustainable, what did you mean by that?
Epic has much more money to throw around, so they can buy their place in the market. They use exclusives to get the people who can't wait a while for the newest games. They also focus more on adding bigger games to the catalog, something GoG is unable to do thanks to their own policies.
Lastly they give away free games, which is also a lure.

Shame님이 먼저 게시:
High product quality ethic, is what I was trying to say, simply because of the DRM-free game distribution, no strings attached. At least to me, if the game has no DRM, it is automatically a better product.
Keywords are "for you" and thusly what you deem quality. DRM or no DRM, it doesn't change the gameplay, story, etc, in that it's the same product.

Keep in mind that it's us minorites who are actually concerned with whether we want DRM or not in our games.

Shame님이 먼저 게시:
Real annoying that, because games being DRM-free would encourage more sales; the developer gets their money, while the customer gets their game without DRM circumventing the use of a game. A lot of people just tend to resort to you-know-what because legitimate customers can get screwed over due to DRM.
Big assumptions that it would encourage more sales. Seeing how GoG is doing, that assumption isn't correct, though.

Piracy generally has nothing to do with DRM. Piracy generally has to do with people unwilling to spend money.

While I can understand your fondness of DRM-free, I do get the feeling that you're trying to project your feelings about it on the industry and its customers. Generally speaking gamers don't care about DRM. Gamers go where the games are, no matter what. Subscriptions, lootboxes and microtransactions have shown that already.
Shame 2020년 1월 16일 오후 4시 38분 
Crazy Tiger님이 먼저 게시:
While I can understand your fondness of DRM-free, I do get the feeling that you're trying to project your feelings about it on the industry and its customers. Generally speaking gamers don't care about DRM. Gamers go where the games are, no matter what. Subscriptions, lootboxes and microtransactions have shown that already.
Perhaps, but it's objectively better long-term for the customer to have a DRM-free version, otherwise you can only keep the game for as long as the DRM the game has can stay active to let you play the game. The quicker more people realise this, the faster we will have more games being sold without DRM. DRM is inherently anti-consumer every way I look at it. People not caring is people not caring, not that it isn't an issue, or at least a potential one.
Shame 님이 마지막으로 수정; 2020년 1월 16일 오후 4시 38분
Start_Running 2020년 1월 16일 오후 4시 43분 
Shame님이 먼저 게시:
Start_Running님이 먼저 게시:
Which GoG are you looking it. Their Sale prices are (at least for me) no better than Steams (wghich makes sense because its fgenerallty the same publishers setting the prices on boths stores). Higher Product Quality....Again Which GoG you looking at. Never mind that there are very few games on GoG that you won't also find on Steam. You can also add the fact that they have a laughably smaller catalog which of course means fewer options for their customer's entertainment choices.
High product quality ethic, is what I was trying to say, simply because of the DRM-free game distribution, no strings attached. At least to me, if the game has no DRM, it is automatically a better product.

They have Messiah, and Daikatana on their store...Yeah They have no claim to Quality, but there are plenty of quality games that aren't on GoG. This is because when you say 'quality' it means very little when considering ENtertainment products. Different people are entertained by different things. What GoGG uis doing is taking the "Safe Bets'.


Start_Running님이 먼저 게시:
So you want Valve to bejust like GoG and not have publishers pyut their catalogs up.
Look. Valve and GGoG started more or less the same time. The differences in their standings is a direct result of the relations either have had with their business partners.

Why should Valve adopt the tactics and methods of the guy that consistently places a distant second.
Real annoying that, because games being DRM-free would encourage more sales; the developer gets their money, while the customer gets their game without DRM circumventing the use of a game. A lot of people just tend to resort to you-know-what because legitimate customers can get screwed over due to DRM
Nah . Thats just the excuse they like to use for doing something they were going to do anyway. WIth the exception of a few issues with Securom (which have generally been quickly dealt with), ggamers arfe seldom negatively impacted by DRM. People just like to scaremonger. Its like the Doomsday preppers.
Mean while there are issues with GoGG games being abandoned by developers I.e not getting patches or updates, p because the devs see very little benefit in doing so.

Start_Running님이 먼저 게시:
GGoG has never won since they started so yeah.. thats a looooong-term.
If for whatever reason a platform like Steam has its servers shut down, disabling the use of pretty much any games you had on there, that would for sure make more people interested in getting games DRM-free. But I guess only time will tell.
Yeah and that won't really help goG because at this stage that'd probably mean an atmospgheric high yield EMP burst which means the power grid and most of the electronics are fired anyway. You'll have much bigger things to worry about than the games on the magwiped drive in your system.

COmpanies the size of Valve don't just poof and Valve themselves have stated there is a contingency plan for such an occasion.

Offline only works with a single account, to my knowledge, and even then Steam has prevented me from going offline mode, in particular when I had Steam Guard turned off. Not as safe as it looks.
And you'd turn-off steam guard why?
And yeah of course it only works for a single account. Only one account can own a game.
Look ghere's the skivy. If what GoG was doing was so great and impactful...they wouldn't be a distant second place (though EPic might very well edge them iinto 3rd).
Dr.Shadowds 🐉 2020년 1월 16일 오후 5시 06분 
Shame님이 먼저 게시:
I think it's safe to say people are going to move over to buy games from GOG if they are available there more and more. They have high discounts just like Steam, if not even higher and more frequent, not to mention a higher product quality and customer-satisfaction ethic.

If Valve wants to compete and keep on top as a PC game distributor, they should allow you to actually own your games and get them DRM-free. Then where you buy your game from would be a case of which one has it first or which one can sell it to you for cheaper at a given time (depends entirely on what the customer is looking for and when).

Otherwise GOG always wins in the long-term. May be that's a good thing, but yeah, I probably won't be buying any more games through Steam if DRM is just going to stay here. But don't think about going the "exclusive" route, cause that's just gonna make things worse for you, Valve. I would love to get Mario Maker 2, but I am not getting a Switch just to play that, so unless your games become DRM-free in the future, I'm just getting games from GOG when they are available.
OP GoG, and Steam along side each other for years, in fact it has been over a decade if you haven't notice. People from GoG came to Steam, and people form Steam came to GoG, this hasn't changed in the past decade, that you have to understand.

GoG has pros, and cons, so does Steam. GoG will lack the things Devs needs, or wants, and policy of mandatory DRM free that they don't agree with, while Steam provides pretty much a whole lot of things, as well making the DRM optional to add into their game files, which they can choose to make their game DRM free on Steam if they wanted, or code that calls to the DLL to call for the client if they wanted, it's optional, not a mandatory, when compare to GoG where it must be what GoG wants for DRM free. The draw back of not doing the call for Steam client is not to be able to use the features such achievements calling, steam workshop, and leaderboard, but screenshots, streaming, etc are not tied to the client to be called for as it's related to Steam overlay as overlay can be used on anything it hooks onto, but of course need client to be active to use the Steam overlay as it's part of the client, not the games themselves.

There a problems where devs, and publishers don't exactly feel comfortable with GoG because of their policy, which in some cases you will see games lack DLC's, or even some content from the game, or DLC as well, such as online features, or expansions, or could even be licensing issues conflicting with GoG which can be a problem, such as rock star needing to remove songs due to licensing, which GoG may fight them on, and be could be problem to them if they couldn't remove, which option will lead to removing from sale, and everyone else that didn't buy will miss out, but of course there can be other problems, when comes to Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Steam, Origin, or etc, for digital copies, as they can make changes, patches, and so on, while GoG not sure with their case, or why companines that does licsensing like Rockstar does skips out on GoG. But there can be more than meets the eye whatever the case may be.

Shame님이 먼저 게시:
Crazy Tiger님이 먼저 게시:
The issue with GoG is that it has a much smaller catalog due to their DRM policy. People won't go over, people will use GoG next to Steam just as people have been doing for years.

Question though, OP. Are you aware that GoG isn't doing that well financially?
They catalogue is substantial, they even have Rain World, a game I wish I had known I could have got DRM-free.

I wasn't aware of them not doing well financially, but they ought to do better over time given larger library of game availability going forward, and clearly there are plenty of people interested in DRM-free games.
Yea they haven't been hot, due to being a niche market, hence DRM free, they don't offer anything really, their client barely used for anything, as when they try to do GoG 2.0 client, it's basically a clone of early Xfire before it has community screenshots, and videos, which isn't idea people wanted, as when people saw about possible cross chat, and etc, which isn't happening as of yet, or may not even happen at all, it's nice, but not idea as we all had hope, which we hope that may change in the future, but that's only a hope.

Shame님이 먼저 게시:
Tito Shivan님이 먼저 게시:
Most people don't really care that much about DRM. And because of their hard stance on DRM free titles GOG will always lack a series of best sellers to drive people to the store.
Developers are also free to release their games DRM free in Steam (there's lots of Steam games that don't require the client at all)

And DRM or not, the game ownership is in either case ruled by the same license terms. DRM only gives devs a way to enforce the license terms and avoid abuse.

DRM free doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want with the game.
It means you don't lose your games if the platform you got it for/from shuts down. That's the risk of the vast majority of steam games, the one only exception that I know of and own being Don't Starve and 2/3 of its DLCs.

I don't see what the issue is with the licence, of course making copies of a game you have bought and sold is still illegal, but you are free to install the game for personal use, even save it on a disk for keeping a hard copy for yourself, and none has the right to stop you, no?

DRM inherently encourages piracy. Without DRM pirating a game would hold less and less ground and probably become less frequent as a result. Not that it won't go, but it is something to consider when requiring DRM for your game.
This is where the Niche comes in, which is nice, you can back up your games on storage to use any other time later on, but here the biggest problem which won't go away no matter what, which is the licensing, now despite policy saying you own what you buy, that may not hold well, when you have a copy that you don't have a license / proof of purchase for which people can assume you pirated it, but can't prove it either, because it's DRM free, now when GoG goes down, everything gone from it, but you remain to keep your stuff if you kept it back up on a storage, but problem is you lost all your proof of purchase if you never recorded any of it, and that be the down fall of it, people can think either way how you got a copy. Now anyone can just say they bought a copy of Cyberpunk 2077, but you can figure out the problem not everyone going to buy it if all they had to do was bud a copy from a friend, or family member, and don't have to buy their own copy, or even just pirate it off torrent sites, because that how bad DRM free really are which cause Devs, and publishers concerns with GoG, some will be ok with GoG, and some won't be ok with GoG, can't expect everything to go their way.

Shame님이 먼저 게시:
MoonCAT님이 먼저 게시:
This.

It sounds worse than it is because the only ones that talk about it are the ones that it bothers.

S H ▲ N D O R님이 먼저 게시:
I have yet to see a game which gave me any problems with it's DRM.

MoonCAT님이 먼저 게시:
I think it's more about laziness than problems

Not so, and DRM should bother people more, and it bothers me a lot, but of course people are not going to care until ♥♥♥♥ hits the fan, like Steam being shut down. Or, for instance, games that have additional DRMs and if that DRM shuts down, like was the case with that one Tron game that sparked a bit more discussion concerning DRM:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yUmR6eQNrY
You need to think why Devs / Publishers wanted DRM in their games in the 1st place. But also it's expected if they add too many DRM's such as assassin creed origins which Ubisoft thought it be great idea to add extra DRMS, which use Steam, Uplay, and more which cause game perforamnce, before they added the extra DRM's, it was just Steam, and Uplay which perforamnce were good, and barely affected, they learn not to repeat the same mistake with their other titles. Now games such as Tron, and etc, from that video were using SecuRom, which existed on disks for standalone games, and so on, but these games most likely never got onto GoG because again must be DRM free, so either they choose not to remove it, or just too lazy to do so. SecuRom is a problem far soooo long, and they were not the only company that were a problem either. Believe it, or not, CDProjectRed owner of GOG added SecuRom to Witcher 2 for retail version for certain regions, go fig right?
Shame 2020년 1월 16일 오후 5시 06분 
Start_Running님이 먼저 게시:
Nah . Thats just the excuse they like to use for doing something they were going to do anyway. WIth the exception of a few issues with Securom (which have generally been quickly dealt with), ggamers arfe seldom negatively impacted by DRM. People just like to scaremonger. Its like the Doomsday preppers.
Mean while there are issues with GoGG games being abandoned by developers I.e not getting patches or updates, p because the devs see very little benefit in doing so.
Not saying plenty people would do it anyway, but I'm just gonna say X to doubt on it overall and leave it at that.

What do you mean by "GoG games being abandoned"? If GoG ships out the same games available elsewhere but DRM-free, do you not get to have updates in some form anyway, since these games are updated on Steam and whatnot?

Start_Running님이 먼저 게시:
If for whatever reason a platform like Steam has its servers shut down, disabling the use of pretty much any games you had on there, that would for sure make more people interested in getting games DRM-free. But I guess only time will tell.
Yeah and that won't really help goG because at this stage that'd probably mean an atmospgheric high yield EMP burst which means the power grid and most of the electronics are fired anyway. You'll have much bigger things to worry about than the games on the magwiped drive in your system.

COmpanies the size of Valve don't just poof and Valve themselves have stated there is a contingency plan for such an occasion.
[/quote]
I'm not talking about EMPs lol, I'm talking about if the system is just shut down, for whatever reason, or you lose access to your account.

I don't see why you are eager to defend DRM, when it is inherently anti-consumer. It's annoying and it means you don't get to truly own the copy of the game you paid money for. Only the access.

But what is this contingency plan?

Start_Running님이 먼저 게시:
And you'd turn-off steam guard why?
And yeah of course it only works for a single account. Only one account can own a game.
Look ghere's the skivy. If what GoG was doing was so great and impactful...they wouldn't be a distant second place (though EPic might very well edge them iinto 3rd).
If you live in a household where multiple people have different Steam accounts and share a computer, constantly logging in and out, then you have a problem. Only one of you gets to play your games while offline at best, and at worst none gets access. Steam Guard is an annoying little ♥♥♥♥ if I'm honest, because it means unless I set Steam to log me in automatically I have to use it for verification.

Dr.Shadowds 🐉님이 먼저 게시:
This is where the Niche comes in, which is nice, you can back up your games on storage to use any other time later on, but here the biggest problem which won't go away no matter what, which is the licensing, now despite policy saying you own what you buy, that may not hold well, when you have a copy that you don't have a license / proof of purchase for which people can assume you pirated it, but can't prove it either, because it's DRM free, now when GoG goes down, everything gone from it, but you remain to keep your stuff if you kept it back up on a storage, but problem is you lost all your proof of purchase if you never recorded any of it, and that be the down fall of it, people can think either way how you got a copy.
I don't have much to say on your other points, except for this. You do realise that purchases are recorded on your banking statement, or Paypal, or whatever you may use to purchase a game, right? But if it isn't enough, I guess it is good to keep a paper/digital copy as a "proof-of-purchase" just in case. If I could, I would take all the games I have paid for, dedicate a disc for each, and have proof-of-purchase for each game saved somewhere. This way we can have a non-DRM way of purchasing game copies digitally while keeping hard copies like it has been so far for consoles.
Shame 님이 마지막으로 수정; 2020년 1월 16일 오후 5시 23분
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게시된 날짜: 2020년 1월 16일 오후 12시 48분
게시글: 33