Steam reviews need a five star rating scale.

[FOXDUDE69]

The simplistic thumbs up or thumbs down thing can be very misleading. Games aren't just good or bad, there's a gradient there and I know you can explain your rating in the text but when you go to a store page and you see an "overwhelmingly positive" rating of 98%, you might think it's the hottest thing since Jessica Alba, only to buy the game and realize it's just a 4 out of 5 game.

But that's not the biggest problem, the biggest problem is when you have a game that is overall good but has some serious issues. Or a game that's just "good enough" for the price. The reviewer is forced to pick from positive or negative rating and since the experience was overall positive, they pick positive which usually results in games having a "very positive" rating, sitting around 85% when in reality it's a 2.5 or 3 out of 5 game.

The absolute worst scenario is one like Fallout 3's which is left in an abysmal state because of steam's lack of standards and Bethesda's let-the-fans-fix-it attitude resulting in a game that doesn't even launch without being modded by the paying costumer and requires further work to run well. Every new player needs to go through this process but the game is real good after you you spend a good amount of time fixing it, so they leave positive reviews... on a game that doesn't even launch. And it's sitting right now with a "mostly positive" rank on steam.

A simple five star rating scale would help a lot and provide a much more honest and accurate average rating.

Thank you for reading.

[Nx Machina]

引用自 Foxdude：

Thought we should have a chat in private to cool things a bit and maybe understand each other a little better.

And didn't really think It was out of line to send you an invite given the amount of snooping you done on my profile. Hehehe.

You thought wrong. I do not like to be insulted. You assumed it was fine to send an invite. You assumed I was posting from a Level 0 throwaway account. Maybe you should try not been insulting and learn what Level 0 means - Private Profile for myself or Friends only for others.

Finally you chose to leave your profile public allowing others to view your reviews etc but hey why not throw a final insult in with snooping and yet claim you want to cool things.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

引用自 Start_Running：

引用自 Quint the Alligator Snapper：

The system does not actually care what text the reviewer puts, as demonstrated by your favorite example of a nonsensical review. The reviewer can put all sorts of glyphs and rating systems in there, but there's no way for the reader to find this other than by going to the review itself.

CTRL+F

lazy loading

引用自 Start_Running：

Not to mention that different reviewers might write them differently so even if there exists a text search you might search for ★︎ but miss those reviews that write this as "3/5".

Well yo and likeminded folks can work outa standardized format for you all to use. The more popular alternative formats will catch on. Eventually.. If it's actaully done. and if it isn't...well then you'll understand how few people actually follow your line of thinking.

Here you speak like it's a popularity contest, while if I use your reasoning from earlier, it's just going to be Valve doing whatever they want regardless of popularity anyway. Get your narrative straight.

引用自 Start_Running：

Thanks for confirming that the system ignores nuance.

The system values Information. And consiodering you can write a review in Haiku if you want I'd say there's plenty of nuance to be found You just don't have 'Press here for Nuance' button. You have to actually *be* nuanced.

"Nuance" provides more information, not less. You value shoehorning everyone's opinions into a literal one-bit choice, thus losing the extra information they might provide.

引用自 Start_Running：

If a person has a neutral opinion of a game, then forcing them to answer either positive or negative would be inaccurate compared to providing a neutral option.

And the fundamental misunderstanding is revealed again. Your opinion is not what is being asked...whether or not you recommend the game is what is being asked. These two things. they are not the same.

Actually, the system used to ask for recommendations, but now asks for reviews.

引用自 Start_Running：

Yoyu can state whether or not you recommend it, and then write your neutral opinion. Actions cannot be neeutral. We've covered this. You either step forward, or you do not step forward. You either recommend or not recommend. You either A, or !A. That which is not A is !A.

You can grandstand as much as you want, you can misrepresent what "information" means, but it's quite ironic that you bragged at me about your computer science knowledge yet don't know that two bits can present more information than one.

引用自 Start_Running：

- A Well written review makes a 5 star system superfluous.
- A five star system won't add nuance to a poorly written or lazy review.
- 2 Options with Clear meaning will communicate better than 5 options of nebulous interpretation.

A well-written review can't necessarily be found if the system for finding it is poorly designed. A review that isn't found by readers is useless.
A five star system can add nuance to a poorly-written or lazy review, if the review text doesn't mention it otherwise.
People have used a 5-star rating system for many, many years, across many, many stores and other contexts, applied to many, many products. People understand how to use 5-star rating systems; your apparent inability to understand them beyond "nebulous interpretation" is not their problem.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

引用自 Tito Christmas：

引用自 cinedine：

.
More and more reviewers are forfeiting scores in order to make the readers actually read their reviews.

That's why I pay little attention to review score and instead read them for the pieces of information I need to make a purchase decision.

Ironically I find more pieces of information leading to non-purchases in positive reviews than I do in negative ones.

Like you, I find the information in the review text more useful than the score.
Unlike you, I guess, I've found that the information I find useful tends to show up more often in mid-range reviews, as positive reviews tend to be full of praise with a lack of specification of faults, while negative reviews mix in both flaming and unique situations that aren't necessarily applicable to me.

引用自 Tito Christmas：

If the bulk of people keeps going to the extremes (which is foreseeable) a small ammount of in-between reviews won't become statistically significant. And that considering people give their ratings are evaluating all game aspects in the same way (4 Stars: 'Graphics are great but gameplay is dull' Vs 2 Stars: 'Graphics are great but gameplay is dull')

2, 3, and 4 star reviews are quite common on internet stores that allow for those choices.

They tend to be the minority, and it's probably most typical to find a product with mainly 5 star reviews, some 4 star reviews, fewer 3 stars, and even fewer 2 and 1 the fewest. But, they are definitely there, and for any product with more than a handful of reviews, they provide a pretty substantial amount of information -- especially considering that I wouldn't expect buyers to have the time to read through all the reviews in total anyway.

Also, if you simply look at a bar graph of the reviews distribution, you can get quite a good sense of where opinions stand. I've definitely seen products where the most common review is 4 or 3.

[Start_Running]

引用自 Foxdude：

引用自 Start_Running：

This is true, because what STeam is counting is recommendations. Here's the thing. If you think the game is too crappy for you to recommend.. then click No. and that will affec the review.
Your written review will be seen by anyone who comes across your review.

Yeah, but this creates an ethical issue for me for games that I right on the border between good and bad. Do I take the overall rating into account when I choose my answer?

There is no ethical issue. You eiher think its worth recommending, or you don' hink it's worh recommending. Ideally you shouldn't take anything into consideration but you experience with the game andyour evaluation thereof. If you can you can, if you can't you can't.

As said. You can like someothing without recommending it, and you can recommend something withoutt lliking it.

For example, I think a game is barely a 3 out of 5.

Which Amazon would categorize as a negative review.

But the overall rating is at 85% positive. Do I choose "not recommend" to push the score in the opposite direction? Is it ethical to do so? What would you do, mate?

Why are you thinking interms of score and the puushing of it?
Why are you bringing so many externalities ino things?
What would I do. if I considered the game not worhy of recommending I would click no. If I considered i worth a recommendation I'd click 'Yes'.Whatt would I base my decision on? My own internal evaluation of my play experience.

It's not that complicated.

[Sazzouu]

I did not read through everything in this thread or even the OP but given the title I must give a NO. And here is why...

Many different services tried that. Youtube, Netflix, Amazon, Google... you name it. And the result in the end was people that are more or less pleased with their product and willing to give a rating just threw in those 5 stars and people that had some complaints just did that 1 or 0 stars - depending on what the limits of the system are.

So basically You would not have any sort of actual mid-ranged products. They were either OUTSTANDING or just hot garbage. The overhead in storage was never worth the actual outcome of such a system so most services just reverted / changed to a thumbs up/down system becasue it is way cleaner and since it is so simple people tend to use it more often because in many cases you just have to click one button and thats it.

[cinedine]

引用自 Quint the Alligator Snapper：

People have used a 5-star rating system for many, many years, across many, many stores and other contexts, applied to many, many products. People understand how to use 5-star rating systems; your apparent inability to understand them beyond "nebulous interpretation" is not their problem.

And in large people are moving away from it.
Your point?
And evidentally people do not know how to use a five-star rating if they mainly use 1s and 5s. Hell, I have no trouble finding absurd reviews for their ratings.
- Average food, high prices, therefore a thumb in the middle - 1/5
- food took two hours and wasn't tasty, but the waitress was cute -5/5
That are two real reviews I've encountered once.

Hell, if people go after the literal lives of reviewers because they gave a good review of a game but mentioned they almsot got a seizure from a problematic scene, how can you expect them to rate anything reasonable?

A scale is wasted on a system where every review exists in a bubble. You cannot rate Doom Eternal Vs Dirt 5 Vs Street Fighter V Vs Dwarf Fortress. The audiences that leave reviews are widely different.
This only works for small groups of reviewers and only as long as they have a consistent rating scheme.

Even magazines had and have problems with it. And I'm not even talking about 7/10 being "average".
I remember GameStar once introduced a decay for their graphics subcategory because their top lists were filled with old games that still held up. After a while they removed it because their top lists didn't include old games that still held up anymore.
Or when they arbitrarily took five points off Dragon Age 2 because with their system the sequel couldn't beat it but they felt it was the better game.

People by large start to disregard metacritic and similar aggregators. They are a cancer on the industry. Big publishers are already developing checklist style for sales numbers. No need to have them tick boxes soley for ratings. And we especially don't need another New Vegas story where the developer was denied a bonus because they were one point off although making the best game in the series.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

引用自 Start_Running：

For example, I think a game is barely a 3 out of 5.

Which Amazon would categorize as a negative review.

You keep using Amazon as your example, saying that stuff is "categorized" as positive and negative, yet...what do they actually do?

They provide a 5-star rating system, for both customers looking to buy products and customers looking to review them.

And what does Amazon show on each product page? A product score on a 5 point scale, which you can mouse over to see the distribution of ratings for each rating number.

You keep claiming this "categorization" but Amazon clearly does things very differently from what you describe. What Amazon does actually contradicts your argument.

[Drab]

Are you all done arguing a moot point yet?

[FOXDUDE69]

引用自 Shogun Blade：

You thought wrong. I do not like to be insulted. You assumed it was fine to send an invite. You assumed I was posting from a Level 0 throwaway account.

Well, Kusa-chan, If we are honest, your very first post on this thread was accusatory in nature. Accusation that never ceased and only escalated. The fact that I kept my cool before showing you as little respect as you were showing me is a testament to my benevolent nature, which is also why, unsurprisingly, it was me that thought of extending an olive branch to you and not the other way around.

I see now that it was foolish of me to try to patch things up and start fresh, I'm ashamed that I didn't foresee the outcome based on the never ending torrent of unprovoked and unpleasant accusations you are so fond of hurling at me.

Do have a pleasant evening and sorry for bothering you.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

引用自 cinedine：

And in large people are moving away from it.

YouTube did and that's it.

引用自 cinedine：

And evidentally people do not know how to use a five-star rating if they mainly use 1s and 5s.

https://www.amazon.com/Git-up-Diabetic-Slippers-Arthritis-Adjustable/dp/B07B6QFH52/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=open+toed+shoes&qid=1609359292&sr=8-1
5 star: 56%
4 star: 16%
3 star: 11%
2 star: 7%
1 star: 9%

Also, even if people "mainly use 1s and 5s", that doesn't mean those people never use the other ratings in between, and you're also ignoring all those people who do use the ratings in between.

引用自 cinedine：

A scale is wasted on a system where every review exists in a bubble. You cannot rate Doom Eternal Vs Dirt 5 Vs Street Fighter V Vs Dwarf Fortress. The audiences that leave reviews are widely different.

But we're talking about reviews on the Steam store -- these reviews aren't used to market games to general audiences; these reviews are used to provide prospective buyers (the ones who've bothered to scroll down to the bottom of the page) information about the game, to inform their purchase decision.

[Start_Running]

引用自 Quint the Alligator Snapper：

引用自 Start_Running：

- A Well written review makes a 5 star system superfluous.
- A five star system won't add nuance to a poorly written or lazy review.
- 2 Options with Clear meaning will communicate better than 5 options of nebulous interpretation.

A well-written review can't necessarily be found if the system for finding it is poorly designed. A review that isn't found by readers is useless.

I've never had a problem finding well written informative reviews. But then I don' go into review searches with any biases.

A five star system can add nuance to a poorly-written or lazy review, if the review text doesn't mention it otherwise.

If its mentioned...its not exactly nuance. Its just a statement. Nuance in writing comes not from what is said, but how it is said. The word choice, sentence structure, and sylistic use of idioms.

Then again remembering what you called neutral reviews sometime ago this doesn't surprise tha youu'd have such confusion.

People have used a 5-star rating system for many, many years, across many, many stores and other contexts, applied to many, many products.

And jus as many have opted not to. SO what's your point?

People understand how to use 5-star rating systems; your apparent inability to understand them beyond "nebulous interpretation" is not their problem.

Yes everyone can understand out to use it...but no two peoplle seem to agree on when one should use any specific number on that scale. Thusly the numbers have vastly different meanings to the people reading and writing. Yes and No on the otherhand... are very clear and universal.

[Tito Shivan]

引用自 Quint the Alligator Snapper：

Unlike you, I guess, I've found that the information I find useful tends to show up more often in mid-range reviews, as positive reviews tend to be full of praise with a lack of specification of faults, while negative reviews mix in both flaming and unique situations that aren't necessarily applicable to me.

In my experience the positive reviews tend to have more information than negative ones. I'm usually not looking into faults when reading those reviews.
The positive ones usually drive deeper into mechanics and game aspects than negative ones.

[cinedine]

引用自 Quint the Alligator Snapper：

引用自 cinedine：

And in large people are moving away from it.

YouTube did and that's it.

引用自 cinedine：

And evidentally people do not know how to use a five-star rating if they mainly use 1s and 5s.

https://www.amazon.com/Git-up-Diabetic-Slippers-Arthritis-Adjustable/dp/B07B6QFH52/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=open+toed+shoes&qid=1609359292&sr=8-1
5 star: 56%
4 star: 16%
3 star: 11%
2 star: 7%
1 star: 9%

Also, even if people "mainly use 1s and 5s", that doesn't mean those people never use the other ratings in between, and you're also ignoring all those people who do use the ratings in between.

引用自 cinedine：

A scale is wasted on a system where every review exists in a bubble. You cannot rate Doom Eternal Vs Dirt 5 Vs Street Fighter V Vs Dwarf Fortress. The audiences that leave reviews are widely different.

But we're talking about reviews on the Steam store -- these reviews aren't used to market games to general audiences; these reviews are used to provide prospective buyers (the ones who've bothered to scroll down to the bottom of the page) information about the game, to inform their purchase decision.

Not only Youtube. Survey institutes do (or often exclude anything neutral), Netflix replaced their rating, Rotten Tomatoes has a binary scale, even stuff you might not think of as a rating like Tinder. Or support system asking you whether it the article or agent was helpful.
In short: companies who actually work with the data.

Great, you've found a review where "only" tow thirds used the extremes. Is this supposed to mean something? I worked in online stores. I've seen how users rate first hand. Do you want me to give you a cool hundred products where the J-distribution is more extreme?
Also, who is ignoring anyone? By using a five point you are not ignoring all the people who use a ten-point scale, or a 300 point scale. This one third in your example will surely be hard pressed to choose just between two options if needed.
That's the reason binary scales are better: they reduce noise.

And ALL reviews are a marketing instrument. User reviews just as well. They are not meant to inform products but to increase confidence in prospective buyers and move them towards a purchase. Most reviews will end up positive because people who feel indifferent will usually not engage further by reviewing a product. There is also the psychological component of time/money investement. You spend ten hours of your life with a game. Wouldn't you feel guilty for giving it a negative review? (And I'm not asking you, btw. Don't take stuff I write personally coined at you. I get it, you are different. You are not part of the general populace. )
On Steam and Netflix they have another purpose by fueling the recommendation engine. Especially the later uses reviews to find people with similar taste.

[Nx Machina]

引用自 Foxdude：

Well, Kusa-chan, If we are honest, your very first post on this thread was accusatory in nature. Accusation that never ceased and only escalated. The fact that I kept my cool before showing you as little respect as you were showing me is a testament to my benevolent nature, which is also why, unsurprisingly, it was me that thought of extending an olive branch to you and not the other way around.

I see now that it was foolish of me to try to patch things up and start fresh, I'm ashamed that I didn't foresee the outcome based on the never ending torrent of unprovoked and unpleasant accusations you are so fond of hurling at me.

Do have a pleasant evening and sorry for bothering you.

Kept your cool? You were banned. Please stop with the "I am innocent, oh woo is me stance". Your wording on this thread after your ban was up.

引用自 Foxdude：

Either that or you suffer from extremely poor reading comprehension.

引用自 Foxdude：

Read post #147 again. Maybe if you try really hard this time, you might understand it!

引用自 Foxdude：

or fail to comprehend, Kusa.

That's right. A few people around here sent me messages saying your name used to be Kusa and that you are usually this... Special. The name still doesn't ring a bell but it doesn't surprise me that a person with you "argumentative skills" needs a change of name once in a while! Hahaha!

引用自 Foxdude：

You assume I was banned because of you? Hahaha. What an Inflated sense of self importance!

引用自 Foxdude：

Which is explained clearly and in plain English in post #147. Which you really should read one more time because you failed to understand it the first few times, Kusa-chan.

引用自 Foxdude：

If you just calm your mind and read #147. I know you'll be able to comprehend. I have faith in you Kusa.
But if you don't want to, then please stop posting trash that's already been addressed on post #147.

Like I stated you were not banned because of me. I did not report you, maybe someone else did or a moderator did when reading the thread and found your posts disrespectful. Oddly you continue with been disrespectful and yet expect a conversation.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

引用自 Start_Running：

引用自 Quint the Alligator Snapper：

A well-written review can't necessarily be found if the system for finding it is poorly designed. A review that isn't found by readers is useless.

I've never had a problem finding well written informative reviews. But then I don' go into review searches with any biases.

Well-written informative reviews were available on Steam even before Steam changed from having no choice for recommendation status to having two options on reviews. But the system was improved since then.

This suggestion proposes another improvement.

引用自 Start_Running：

A five star system can add nuance to a poorly-written or lazy review, if the review text doesn't mention it otherwise.

If its mentioned...its not exactly nuance. Its just a statement. Nuance in writing comes not from what is said, but how it is said. The word choice, sentence structure, and sylistic use of idioms.

We're not talking about review writing as an artistic medium. Nuance comes from being able to give more information about an opinion.

引用自 Start_Running：

Then again remembering what you called neutral reviews sometime ago this doesn't surprise tha youu'd have such confusion.

I've used various terms for neutral reviews, including neutral, informational, mixed, null-recommendation. None of them support what you're trying to argue here.

引用自 Start_Running：

People have used a 5-star rating system for many, many years, across many, many stores and other contexts, applied to many, many products.

And jus as many have opted not to. SO what's your point?

YouTube has opted for a 2-choice system, and it barely has any video purchases.
Steam has a 2-choice system.
That's about it.

引用自 Start_Running：

People understand how to use 5-star rating systems; your apparent inability to understand them beyond "nebulous interpretation" is not their problem.

Yes everyone can understand out to use it...but no two peoplle seem to agree on when one should use any specific number on that scale. Thusly the numbers have vastly different meanings to the people reading and writing. Yes and No on the otherhand... are very clear and universal.

And people also disagree on whether a game should or shoudn't be recommended either. By your reasoning, we shouldn't even have the 2-choice recommendation system.