Steam should have a "mixed" option on reviews.

[AdahnGorion]

As the title says, the positive/negative extremes often leave me to never do reviews on game, that I actually want to review.

A mixed review would give us an option to be rather neutral and showcase the positive/negative sides when they are both pretty even (for us in a subjective manner ofc)

I simply can´t understand, why it has to be either positive or negative.. It also ends up with a lot of people posting one of those two extremes, while saying "I want to give a mixed, but I gave it a or


Do other people agree with me on this? or are people happy enough with all the two extremes (negative/positive)

[AdahnGorion]

Origineel geplaatst door Nightlight:

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

Yup. Curators erve a duiscovery function. They basically just create lists of games. and here's the key difference. Curators can group games based on just about any factor which is why Informational exists. Because they aren't require to own or play they games they list.

After all you don't need to play a game to know it;'s an FPS that was releast in the year 200.

Pretty much my thoughts on why the "informational" category for curators exists.

Origineel geplaatst door Quint the Alligator Snapper:

First, Steam's original purpose for making a curation system was so that it would basically allow users to serve as the "curators" of Steam's vast and growing catalogue.

All being a "curator" really means is to be a keeper and organizer of a showcased/to be showcased collection, so I don't get your point here, the people who list the things I mentioned are acting as curators of Steam's catalogue. Plus Valve, as far as I know, has yet to disapprove of those ways of using the curator system. Using the system in those ways also still serves as a way to discover the existence of games (not really with the "censored content" I mentioned, but other "very specific things/content," curators do act as a way for people to tell others "hey, this game exists,) which is one of the intended functions of the curator system.

Origineel geplaatst door Quint the Alligator Snapper:

Consider why the curator system doesn't just have one (by default de facto "informational") status -- it's meant for people to present their opinions. There's even a place where curators can link reviews. And it makes perfect sense to have positive, negative, and neutral opinions -- it's for games people like, dislike, and feel neutral about.

I never said the curator system couldn't be used for giving opinions on games, I just said that it's not its only function. Again, not sure what your point is.

Origineel geplaatst door Quint the Alligator Snapper:

But individual users don't have to use their reviews to "share their experiences with a game" and such. Users can and have used their reviews to praise or criticize developers for doing certain things to games. They can turn themselves into "very specific things" reviewers just like they can with curator reviews. And they can and even do frequently post jokes and memes that say nothing about the game, as if those constitute reviews (even though they are basically useless as such).

I fail to see how the first thing you mentioned doesn't have to do with someone's experience (maybe I should have used the word "thoughts" instead?) with a game. So long as they keep the topic on the content that was change and don't just start calling the developers names, talking about changes made to the game that they thought were for better or worse is a perfectly valid thing for them to do and very likely factors into why they're recommending/not recommending the game (which I believe is the far more important thing to Valve. All Valve really wants is an answer to the "do you recommend this game" question and for people to hopefully at least put down why they're recommending/not recommending a game, while keeping things on topic and not breaking any rules.)

The last thing you mentioned is reportable, I think.

Actually Valve does not care about people writing oneliners, jokes or even discriminative stuff in the reviews. I have tried to report some reviews with wording such as

"Buy this or get killed" or "If you don´t own this you are braindead" or "Queue simulator" or whatever weird things people write.. (it can be a lot worse than that) some also just write "KK"

Valve does nothing.. they think that is a valid review.. That is one of my issues with calling this function a review.. becuase it is not.. that is an emotional reposnse, joke or award hunting meme... I would actually favour a system that had reviewing seperately and then just let people click "recommend or not" without any showcase of words..-


As for more weird issues.

Look at New World (thaat new mmo) before the game was even released, you begun to see pre lease copy owners (these are sponsored youtubers) get access to the review system, they made the game a 96% positive score.. most reviews was like this. "Take my money" "WoW killer" "Best game ever and no queue" "Wonderful" "I played 150 hours in beta, so my opinion is the best and this game is all you need" "You are braindead if you don´t buy this"


No where was it stated, these were "sponsored reviews" and can we again even call these reviews?


Now the userscore is 54% (initially there was 560 sponsored reviews, now ever 13k(
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1063730/New_World/#app_reviews_hash

The fun part here is, that if you go into reviews and look at the things people post negative/positive for, it has nothing to do with reviews in my eyes... its just people´s emotions and award hunting.

[Start_Running]

Origineel geplaatst door Darkie:

Actually Valve does not care about people writing oneliners, jokes or even discriminative stuff in the reviews. I have tried to report some reviews with wording such as

Because if you actually paid attention. There are many individual styles of review.

"Buy this or get killed" or "If you don´t own this you are braindead" or "Queue simulator" or whatever weird things people write.. (it can be a lot worse than that) some also just write "KK"

All of those are valid statements of opinion. The last one actually being somewhat informative.

Valve does nothing.. they think that is a valid review.. That is one of my issues with calling this function a review.. becuase it is not.. that is an emotional reposnse, joke or award hunting meme... I would actually favour a system that had reviewing seperately and then just let people click "recommend or not" without any showcase of words..-

Because lowering the standards even further would improve the problem of low standards?

Look at New World (thaat new mmo) before the game was even released, you begun to see pre lease copy owners (these are sponsored youtubers) get access to the review system, they made the game a 96% positive score.. most reviews was like this. "Take my money" "WoW killer" "Best game ever and no queue" "Wonderful" "I played 150 hours in beta, so my opinion is the best and this game is all you need" "You are braindead if you don´t buy this"

Again Valid statements of opinion.

No where was it stated, these were "sponsored reviews" and can we again even call these reviews?

Because theyare not in fact provably sponsored. That word has a very specific definition that's a bit narrower than the one in your head.

Now the userscore is 54% (initially there was 560 sponsored reviews, now ever 13k(
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1063730/New_World/#app_reviews_hash

The fun part here is, that if you go into reviews and look at the things people post negative/positive for, it has nothing to do with reviews in my eyes... its just people´s emotions and award hunting.

Then you don't seem to have been reading much. Did a quick read throuugh and the most common complaint is the server queues. And the fact that the game just feels grindy...which I dunno what they were expecting. That's pretty much every MMO ever.

I suspect in a few weeks the queue complaints will be eased out and the game will drift back into positive territory.


Your interpretations and expectations of how you think others whould write reviews are just that..your expectations and opinions. Other people can and will feel differently.

A review is just people opining on their subjective exoperiences with a product of a subjective nature.

[AdahnGorion]

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

Origineel geplaatst door Darkie:

Actually Valve does not care about people writing oneliners, jokes or even discriminative stuff in the reviews. I have tried to report some reviews with wording such as

Because if you actually paid attention. There are many individual styles of review.

"Buy this or get killed" or "If you don´t own this you are braindead" or "Queue simulator" or whatever weird things people write.. (it can be a lot worse than that) some also just write "KK"

All of those are valid statements of opinion. The last one actually being somewhat informative.

Valve does nothing.. they think that is a valid review.. That is one of my issues with calling this function a review.. becuase it is not.. that is an emotional reposnse, joke or award hunting meme... I would actually favour a system that had reviewing seperately and then just let people click "recommend or not" without any showcase of words..-

Because lowering the standards even further would improve the problem of low standards?

Look at New World (thaat new mmo) before the game was even released, you begun to see pre lease copy owners (these are sponsored youtubers) get access to the review system, they made the game a 96% positive score.. most reviews was like this. "Take my money" "WoW killer" "Best game ever and no queue" "Wonderful" "I played 150 hours in beta, so my opinion is the best and this game is all you need" "You are braindead if you don´t buy this"

Again Valid statements of opinion.

No where was it stated, these were "sponsored reviews" and can we again even call these reviews?

Because theyare not in fact provably sponsored. That word has a very specific definition that's a bit narrower than the one in your head.

Now the userscore is 54% (initially there was 560 sponsored reviews, now ever 13k(
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1063730/New_World/#app_reviews_hash

The fun part here is, that if you go into reviews and look at the things people post negative/positive for, it has nothing to do with reviews in my eyes... its just people´s emotions and award hunting.

Then you don't seem to have been reading much. Did a quick read throuugh and the most common complaint is the server queues. And the fact that the game just feels grindy...which I dunno what they were expecting. That's pretty much every MMO ever.

I suspect in a few weeks the queue complaints will be eased out and the game will drift back into positive territory.


Your interpretations and expectations of how you think others whould write reviews are just that..your expectations and opinions. Other people can and will feel differently.

A review is just people opining on their subjective exoperiences with a product of a subjective nature.

You think a valid review is "You are braindead if you don´t buy this game" or "WoW killer" are you serious?..

I think we should just accept, we can agree on disagreeing.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

"Buy this or get killed" or "If you don´t own this you are braindead" or "Queue simulator" or whatever weird things people write.. (it can be a lot worse than that) some also just write "KK"

All of those are valid statements of opinion. The last one actually being somewhat informative.

I was going to point out that you've defended memes as reviews before, and even came up with your own meme review example which you kept touting as a legit review (i.e. "I am COmmander Shepard" [sic]). But you went ahead and did it for me anyway. Thanks.

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

Valve does nothing.. they think that is a valid review.. That is one of my issues with calling this function a review.. becuase it is not.. that is an emotional reposnse, joke or award hunting meme... I would actually favour a system that had reviewing seperately and then just let people click "recommend or not" without any showcase of words..-

Because lowering the standards even further would improve the problem of low standards?

Somehow memes and jokes are just fine as "reviews" according to you, but the moment someone wants to register a neutral opinion suddenly they're not worthy anymore in your eyes.

Your contradictions are strange.

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

Your interpretations and expectations of how you think others whould write reviews are just that..your expectations and opinions. Other people can and will feel differently.

Read what you wrote and apply that to yourself.

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

A review is just people opining on their subjective exoperiences with a product of a subjective nature.

And it makes sense that their opinion may be neutral.

[Start_Running]

Origineel geplaatst door Darkie:

You think a valid review is "You are braindead if you don´t buy this game" or "WoW killer" are you serious?..

They are statements iof opinion based on the writer's subjective experience and evaluation. They are Valid.

Are they Good?
That's an entirely different question.

I mean the sentence:
"Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo." is a valid, grammatically and sytatically correct english sentence. Is it a good sentence? That's up to the person reading/hearing it.

I think we should just accept, we can agree on disagreeing.

Yep and what we seem to disagree on is whether or not your opinions are what should be held as defacto truth. People have varying degrees and competency in expression, and this is confounded by stylistic choices. I've seen reviews written in the form of limrick, and Haiku.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

I think we should just accept, we can agree on disagreeing.

Yep and what we seem to disagree on is whether or not your opinions are what should be held as defacto truth. People have varying degrees and competency in expression, and this is confounded by stylistic choices. I've seen reviews written in the form of limrick, and Haiku.

You are continuing to find ways to defend wonderposts as legit reviews.

Yet, like I noted, the moment someone wants to post a neutral opinion, somehow they're not longer a legit review in your eyes. It's almost like you don't actually care about what they say, but just care to force them not to express neutral opinions.

[AdahnGorion]

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

Origineel geplaatst door Darkie:

You think a valid review is "You are braindead if you don´t buy this game" or "WoW killer" are you serious?..

They are statements iof opinion based on the writer's subjective experience and evaluation. They are Valid.

Are they Good?
That's an entirely different question.

I mean the sentence:
"Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo." is a valid, grammatically and sytatically correct english sentence. Is it a good sentence? That's up to the person reading/hearing it.

I think we should just accept, we can agree on disagreeing.

Yep and what we seem to disagree on is whether or not your opinions are what should be held as defacto truth. People have varying degrees and competency in expression, and this is confounded by stylistic choices. I've seen reviews written in the form of limrick, and Haiku.

By that argument, we should just remove moderation from steam and just let people write just about anything on reviews, post, threads and whatnot.. Since then its just opinions after all..

I just think this is crazy and problematic.. you can call these things reviews, but some of us will never accept that termology.. memes, jokes and emotional wizwas.. sure.. but reviews.. no.

[Start_Running]

Origineel geplaatst door Darkie:

By that argument, we should just remove moderation from steam and just let people write just about anything on reviews, post, threads and whatnot.. Since then its just opinions after all..

That's basically taking the 'If I can't have cake then cake should not exist' logic.

I just think this is crazy and problematic.. you can call these things reviews, but some of us will never accept that termology.. memes, jokes and emotional wizwas.. sure.. but reviews.. no.

So basically your disagreement is with the dictionary.
That's like someone claiming Pugs aren't dogs because they are so small and silly looking.
A painting you find ungly, is still art.
A song you find detestable is still music.
A dish you think tastes horrid is still food.

You're free to then say they are poor, inadequate, or lacking as reviews, but they are still reviews.

[crunchyfrog]

Origineel geplaatst door Darkie:

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

Because if you actually paid attention. There are many individual styles of review.


All of those are valid statements of opinion. The last one actually being somewhat informative.


Because lowering the standards even further would improve the problem of low standards?




Again Valid statements of opinion.


Because theyare not in fact provably sponsored. That word has a very specific definition that's a bit narrower than the one in your head.


Then you don't seem to have been reading much. Did a quick read throuugh and the most common complaint is the server queues. And the fact that the game just feels grindy...which I dunno what they were expecting. That's pretty much every MMO ever.

I suspect in a few weeks the queue complaints will be eased out and the game will drift back into positive territory.


Your interpretations and expectations of how you think others whould write reviews are just that..your expectations and opinions. Other people can and will feel differently.

A review is just people opining on their subjective exoperiences with a product of a subjective nature.

You think a valid review is "You are braindead if you don´t buy this game" or "WoW killer" are you serious?..

I think we should just accept, we can agree on disagreeing.

Yup, they absolutely are. As they clearly offer SOME information.

You think Son'y press launch of the PS1 wasn't a press launch because all they said was "299"/ That was it - you might not like it, but that does not mean it's wrong or conveys no information. It does.

Now, I agree that I personally prefer as full reviews as possible, but it ain't about me or you. It's about EVERYONE. Some people get what they want out of these. Some people like certain types of humour. That's just how it goes - basic empathy and all that.

And don't make the mitake of thinking that a lack of action to your satisafaction equals "don't care". That's not how reality works.

[AdahnGorion]

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

Origineel geplaatst door Darkie:

By that argument, we should just remove moderation from steam and just let people write just about anything on reviews, post, threads and whatnot.. Since then its just opinions after all..

That's basically taking the 'If I can't have cake then cake should not exist' logic.

I just think this is crazy and problematic.. you can call these things reviews, but some of us will never accept that termology.. memes, jokes and emotional wizwas.. sure.. but reviews.. no.

So basically your disagreement is with the dictionary.
That's like someone claiming Pugs aren't dogs because they are so small and silly looking.
A painting you find ungly, is still art.
A song you find detestable is still music.
A dish you think tastes horrid is still food.

You're free to then say they are poor, inadequate, or lacking as reviews, but they are still reviews.

No if we have to use silly real life anologies (that are not valid arguments) then it is like claiming that pork bacon is fruit.

[Start_Running]

Origineel geplaatst door Darkie:

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

That's basically taking the 'If I can't have cake then cake should not exist' logic.


So basically your disagreement is with the dictionary.
That's like someone claiming Pugs aren't dogs because they are so small and silly looking.
A painting you find ungly, is still art.
A song you find detestable is still music.
A dish you think tastes horrid is still food.

You're free to then say they are poor, inadequate, or lacking as reviews, but they are still reviews.

No if we have to use silly real life anologies (that are not valid arguments) then it is like claiming that pork bacon is fruit.

That could probably be a thing. I mean Veggie-Meat is a thing. So what's preventing Meat-Fruit?

Of course the real issue here stems from you trying to pass your personal opinions as some objective fact. Which is a little dishonest I must say.

A review of any thing is a statement of opinion based upon one's personal experience and evaluation of that thing.

There are no stipulations as to length. And the quality of the review is a matter for the audience to determine.

[AdahnGorion]

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

Origineel geplaatst door Darkie:

No if we have to use silly real life anologies (that are not valid arguments) then it is like claiming that pork bacon is fruit.

That could probably be a thing. I mean Veggie-Meat is a thing. So what's preventing Meat-Fruit?

Of course the real issue here stems from you trying to pass your personal opinions as some objective fact. Which is a little dishonest I must say.

A review of any thing is a statement of opinion based upon one's personal experience and evaluation of that thing.

There are no stipulations as to length. And the quality of the review is a matter for the audience to determine.

No.. the problem is you have turned our thread about having mixed/neutral reviews, into being about how memes, jokes and recommendations are fine and even thinking that the data it converts to on other platforms and sites are fine...

The difference between us is that we see the world differently and I want a black and white world.. I want a green with envy option.
But lets not prolong the derail, let us instead go back to what matter at hand, the mixed review option.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

Origineel geplaatst door Darkie:

By that argument, we should just remove moderation from steam and just let people write just about anything on reviews, post, threads and whatnot.. Since then its just opinions after all..

That's basically taking the 'If I can't have cake then cake should not exist' logic.

Well, I guess you just described your own logic...

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

I just think this is crazy and problematic.. you can call these things reviews, but some of us will never accept that termology.. memes, jokes and emotional wizwas.. sure.. but reviews.. no.

So basically your disagreement is with the dictionary.
That's like someone claiming Pugs aren't dogs because they are so small and silly looking.
A painting you find ungly, is still art.
A song you find detestable is still music.
A dish you think tastes horrid is still food.

You're free to then say they are poor, inadequate, or lacking as reviews, but they are still reviews.

Then why does Steam remove some reviews? They are still reviews too.

Game reviews aren't for any information. They're for information about the game.

And that includes reviews that express a neutral opinion of the game. Because they're actually about the game. Rather than some irrelevant bullhonkey meme.

Origineel geplaatst door crunchyfrog:

Yup, they absolutely are. As they clearly offer SOME information.

Like I pointed out, game reviews aren't for just any information -- they're for information about the game.

And again, that includes reviews about the game that indicate neither positive nor negative opinion of it.

[Start_Running]

Origineel geplaatst door Darkie:

No.. the problem is you have turned our thread about having mixed/neutral reviews, into being about how memes, jokes and recommendations are fine and even thinking that the data it converts to on other platforms and sites are fine...

I'm sorry. Last I checked this was a Public forum M8. This thread is no more yours than it is mine.
And you will note at no point did I say Meme reviews were 'Good' or 'FIne' Merely that they are still reviews. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't count m8.

What's interesting is that it is the point that you find most vexing, that your definition isn't the only definition. Again. Says a lot. Me I don't consider meme reviews a prioblem personally because.. I don't read them.

Also you're the one who made this about meme reviews and I already point out where your examples actually qualify as statements of opinion relating to the writer's experience and the evaluation thereof relating to the game in question.. Then you started insisting they aren't because they simply aren't what *YOU* personally look for in a review.
s said. It's like insisting a pug isn't a dog because it's not a german shepard or Golden Retriever.

The difference between us is that we see the world differently and I want a black and white world.. I want a green with envy option.

ANd if you want such an option that's fine but a superfluous colour, is still a superfluous colour. There is nothing you can say in a MIxed, Neutral, whatever review that can't be said in a yes or no recommendation.. Well except:

- I can't be bothered to make up my own mind,.
- I want to hide my opinion.

Valve has pretty much by the very design of the system, stated that one prerequisite or standard is being able to put enough effort into the evaluation of your experience to be able to say whether or not you can or can't recommendthe game to others.

If you want to say Mixed. Just give the honest answer of No. Because all mixed is is a second No option. We don't Need No and No-Lite.

But lets not prolong the derail, let us instead go back to what matter at hand, the mixed review option.

It has never been about anything but the option m8. Ascertaining teh fact that you have a somewhat different definition of certain terms goes a long way to explaining why you perceive the need for such an option.

YOu view things in a surprisingly narrow and compartmentalized band. Others do not. Which is why the yes no is seen as a gradient., and if you actually read the more substantial reviews you find that the majority of the people who write such reviews treat it as such.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

Origineel geplaatst door Darkie:

No.. the problem is you have turned our thread about having mixed/neutral reviews, into being about how memes, jokes and recommendations are fine and even thinking that the data it converts to on other platforms and sites are fine...

I'm sorry. Last I checked this was a Public forum M8. This thread is no more yours than it is mine.
And you will note at no point did I say Meme reviews were 'Good' or 'FIne' Merely that they are still reviews. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't count m8.

But for some reason you don't want neutral reviews to count.

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

s said. It's like insisting a pug isn't a dog because it's not a german shepard or Golden Retriever.

It's like insisting that a review isn't a review because it's not got a positive or negative recommendation attached to it.

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

ANd if you want such an option that's fine but a superfluous colour, is still a superfluous colour.

If you want to force everything to display in black and white, all colors are superfluous colors.

Even though they exist in real life, despite your desire to deny their existence.

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

There is nothing you can say in a MIxed, Neutral, whatever review that can't be said in a yes or no recommendation.. Well except:

- I can't be bothered to make up my own mind,.
- I want to hide my opinion.

You forgot "My opinion of this game is neither positive nor negative."

Please try to understand that world doesn't always work the way you think it does.

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

Valve has pretty much by the very design of the system, stated that one prerequisite or standard is being able to put enough effort into the evaluation of your experience to be able to say whether or not you can or can't recommendthe game to others.

This is not a standard. This is just a requirement of clicking either of two buttons.

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

If you want to say Mixed. Just give the honest answer of No. Because all mixed is is a second No option. We don't Need No and No-Lite.

But if the reviewer's opinion of the game isn't negative, clicking "No" causes their review to be counted as a negative review, which would misrepresent their review.

Just because you can't see the difference between Neutral and Negative doesn't mean that other people can't.

Origineel geplaatst door Start_Running:

Ascertaining teh fact that you have a somewhat different definition of certain terms goes a long way to explaining why you perceive the need for such an option.

YOu view things in a surprisingly narrow and compartmentalized band. Others do not. Which is why the yes no is seen as a gradient., and if you actually read the more substantial reviews you find that the majority of the people who write such reviews treat it as such.

Here you are, demanding that people force their opinions into a black-and-white system, while also hurling the claim that someone else "view[s] things in a surprisingly narrow and compartmentalized band"...what irony.