Greater User Control over Workshop and Version Content.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Situation:
You guys have done awesome with the beta selection on most games and allowing people to select different versions for compatibility, but workshop content often continues to be updated after older versions people still play which can break existing save games and game play for those individuals, this is a common problem.

Task:
Develop a method of controlling not just the version of games, but the version of user uploaded content. Permit updates to be published with game version association and to minimize your memory usage on your servers only keep a record of altered file content between one version and the next permitting space savings while allowing the workshop content the same flexibility as core game titles. One idea might to have a section under workshop content to select a compatible version number. Leave mod publishers the responsibility of matching content to version. Then a player/user will be able to select a game version number, a workshop game version number, and hit an update button, prompting steam to match all that content allowing for a far less disruptive gameplay experience. Would allow the unification of workshop content that is normally published under multiple version numbers for some games into a coherent single item library for a single mod across multiple versions.

Result:
Much more satisfied platform users, making the world a better place for gamers, encouraging sales and trust in the platform over others that do not have the same capability and scalability as yours does for modding and workshop content distributors. A happier community.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Nx Machina eredeti hozzászólása:

Maelstrom Vortex eredeti hozzászólása:

You're making an assumption this data would be retrieved from the work shop. It comes from the available release rosters in the betas section which developers already make available without any special action from them in the work shop area.. in summary: Steam already has this data to act upon. No additional effort is required.

I am basing this on your suggestion and you wanting to search the workshop therefore the tools to simplify said search would be accessible directly in the workshop;

1) Drop box for game version would remove all mods not available with said version and that would be reliant on the developer supplying said information.

2) A second drop box for the mod version and tied it to game version chosen (compatible?) and that would be reliant on the modder to update the information.

3) A third dropbox having used (1) and (2) to then choose (example) does it function?, are there any known issues? does it function with other mods? is it compatible with a mod offering a similar function? etc.

Maelstrom Vortex eredeti hozzászólása:

No, they're not, not all of them. Some get destroyed when modders update. You aren't grasping the problem with clarity.

I very clearly understand how mods function hence why i am on this thread.

Maelstrom Vortex eredeti hozzászólása:

I've seen many developers use it so I'm skelptical of the claim that most do not.

From my library - no betas and or version choice.

Alien Isolation / Chrono Trigger / Dragon's Dogma Dark Arisen / Fell Seal: Arbiter's Mark. Divinity Original Sin Enhanced Edition / Frostpunk and the list goes on.

Some game that do have choice - Dead Cells, Hearts of Iron IV.

Maelstrom Vortex eredeti hozzászólása:

You are correct, it's not, but you still need to understand and actually be commenting correctly on the subject matter or you're talking about an apple instead of an orange.

Do develppers check the work shop each time they post a new branch? I doubt they do. NOr do they have to or are required to for this to work as you seem to be asserting, an existing list of those branches made available by developers already exist with no input from modders at all. Version and branch numbers are essentially synonymous, It's important to pay attention to context to understand when I am talking about a mod version number and a release version number, or as you call it, a branch number or things can easily get confused.

I am commenting based solely on the flaws i see in your suggestion and as pointed out you are making assumptions they all have branches which they do not as noted earlier.

And finally mods are available from other sources so exactly how do you resolve that issue if only 1 out of the 10 mods you have installed is directly from the workshop whilst the other 9 are from another source and the 1 from the workshop is not causing issues.

I think I gave enough explanation on where the version data came from.. and either you are not getting what I am saying and will never get it.. or are ignoring it and continuing to argue apples from oranges. Therefore, I give up attempting the explanation. This doesn't mean I'm incorrect, it means you haven't grasped what I am trying to convey, potentially due to willful ignorance. I can't read your mind so I won't accuse I just know you clearly aren't getting where the information is coming from and that it is already provided by many, not all, game companies and that it is a feature that would be intended only for developers who want to provide branch numbers to help their players. That said, thank you for your input to the suggestion and I hope others have a better grasp on what I am describing than you have. I did my best with words, I really wish I could use screenshots to show you how I'd model the UI as I believe ti's the only way I'd be able to demonstrate to you that there is absolutely no additional obligation or burden on the developer beyond what already exists.

You know how they function currently. You are NOT grasping what I am describing as the suggested change, which is why you are failing to be able to convince me of its lack of viability. If your statements had any impact on the actual proposed function I'd genuinely have to reconsider my proposal.. and probably would have never made it to begin with because those flaws would have been inherent to my proposal to begin with.

And yes, some devleopers do it, some do not.. on the branching. Thus why would you deny the capability to the ones that do? The discussion of branching tells me that you understand where the data would be coming from for branch versioning in the first paragraph, but implies you aren't opposing this suggestion in good faith because of that fact. You pick a problem that doesn't exist and argue against it as if it does.

I have never made or stated an assumption that all games have branches. You are putting words in my mouth now. I simply described a feature that would be useful on games that do.

Deploying this feature may also encourage developers who have not done it before to consider offer versioning for the modding community by adding additional stability to modded versions of the game by allowing the community to natively police its mod to base game/branch versioning in a easier manner.

[Nx Machina]

Maelstrom Vortex eredeti hozzászólása:

I think I gave enough explanation on where the version data came from.. and either you are not getting what I am saying and will never get it.. or are ignoring it and continuing to argue apples from oranges. Therefore, I give up attempting the explanation. This doesn't mean I'm incorrect, it means you haven't grasped what I am trying to convey, potentially due to willful ignorance. I can't read your mind so I won't accuse I just know you clearly aren't getting where the information is coming from and that it is already provided by many, not all, game companies and that it is a feature that would be intended only for developers who want to provide branch numbers to help their players. That said, thank you for your input to the suggestion and I hope others have a better grasp on what I am describing than you have. I did my best with words, I really wish I could use screenshots to show you how I'd model the UI as I believe ti's the only way I'd be able to demonstrate to you that there is absolutely no additional obligation or burden on the developer beyond what already exists.

You know how they function currently. You are NOT grasping what I am describing as the suggested change, which is why you are failing to be able to convince me of its lack of viability. If your statements had any impact on the actual proposed function I'd genuinely have to reconsider my proposal.. and probably would have never made it to begin with because those flaws would have been inherent to my proposal to begin with.

And yes, some devleopers do it, some do not.. on the branching. Thus why would you deny the capability to the ones that do? The discussion of branching tells me that you understand where the data would be coming from for branch versioning in the first paragraph, but implies you aren't opposing this suggestion in good faith because of that fact. You pick a problem that doesn't exist and argue against it as if it does.

I have never made or stated an assumption that all games have branches. You are putting words in my mouth now. I simply described a feature that would be useful on games that do.

Deploying this feature may also encourage developers who have not done it before to consider offer versioning for the modding community by adding additional stability to modded versions of the game by allowing the community to natively police its mod to base game/branch versioning in a easier manner.

I have fully explained my position regarding your suggestion and pointed out its flaws whereas you seem to be focusing on requiring affirmation and disregarding anything else not in line with it, so to finalise.

Do i think it is workable and worth doing? No.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Nx Machina eredeti hozzászólása:

Maelstrom Vortex eredeti hozzászólása:

I think I gave enough explanation on where the version data came from.. and either you are not getting what I am saying and will never get it.. or are ignoring it and continuing to argue apples from oranges. Therefore, I give up attempting the explanation. This doesn't mean I'm incorrect, it means you haven't grasped what I am trying to convey, potentially due to willful ignorance. I can't read your mind so I won't accuse I just know you clearly aren't getting where the information is coming from and that it is already provided by many, not all, game companies and that it is a feature that would be intended only for developers who want to provide branch numbers to help their players. That said, thank you for your input to the suggestion and I hope others have a better grasp on what I am describing than you have. I did my best with words, I really wish I could use screenshots to show you how I'd model the UI as I believe ti's the only way I'd be able to demonstrate to you that there is absolutely no additional obligation or burden on the developer beyond what already exists.

You know how they function currently. You are NOT grasping what I am describing as the suggested change, which is why you are failing to be able to convince me of its lack of viability. If your statements had any impact on the actual proposed function I'd genuinely have to reconsider my proposal.. and probably would have never made it to begin with because those flaws would have been inherent to my proposal to begin with.

And yes, some devleopers do it, some do not.. on the branching. Thus why would you deny the capability to the ones that do? The discussion of branching tells me that you understand where the data would be coming from for branch versioning in the first paragraph, but implies you aren't opposing this suggestion in good faith because of that fact. You pick a problem that doesn't exist and argue against it as if it does.

I have never made or stated an assumption that all games have branches. You are putting words in my mouth now. I simply described a feature that would be useful on games that do.

Deploying this feature may also encourage developers who have not done it before to consider offer versioning for the modding community by adding additional stability to modded versions of the game by allowing the community to natively police its mod to base game/branch versioning in a easier manner.

I have fully explained my position regarding your suggestion and pointed out its flaws whereas you seem to be focusing on requiring affirmation and disregarding anything else not in line with it, so to finalise. Do i think it is workable and worth doing? No.

You are entitled to that belief, pity it comes out of misunderstanding (willful or not unkown). Your objection is noted. Please move on and allow others who can describe an actual problem with the suggestion (and not an imagined one for a suggestion that has not been made) to post.

[Nx Machina]

Maelstrom Vortex eredeti hozzászólása:

You are entitled to that belief, pity it comes out of misunderstanding (willful or not unkown). Your objection is noted. Please move on and allow others who can describe an actual problem with the suggestion to post.

There is no misunderstanding on my part .

If developers cannot be bothered to offer version choice via branches now, and modders cannot be bothered to update mods, nor provide version choice, then it has nowhere to go especially when the ONLY solution is version choice via branches from developers to keep you on your desired version, but if a game has an update then the developers are the ones who want you on that version and Steam is only the tool not the master.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Nx Machina eredeti hozzászólása:

Maelstrom Vortex eredeti hozzászólása:

You are entitled to that belief, pity it comes out of misunderstanding (willful or not unkown). Your objection is noted. Please move on and allow others who can describe an actual problem with the suggestion to post.

There is no misunderstanding on my part .

If developers cannot be bothered to offer version choice via branches now, and modders cannot be bothered to update mods, nor provide version choice, then it has nowhere to go especially when the ONLY solution is version choice via branches from developers to keep you on your desired version, but if a game has an update then the developers are the ones who want you on that version and Steam is only the tool not the master.

So you are basically a clone of the guy who proceeded you.. both on private accounts. I'm going to guess I'm arguing with the same dude who couldn't comprehend how this works the first time around.

We vehemently disagree.. both on the fact this in any way impacts developers.. and on what we assume the community is and is not willing to do. My experiences have proven otherwise. It's sad to hear you have only apparently had experiences where people would not work with you or simply didn't have options they needed. You also cannot speak for all developers, or all modders.. only for yourself.. and that is perhaps the most arrogant of your assumptions. You speak like you know they all want it a certain way.

And if modders don't udpate mods, their mods simply fade into antiquity, there IS NO BURDEN ON A DEVELOPER AT ALL BY MY PROPOSAL. You cannot just repeat something and make it true. They CHOOSE whether or not they provide the branches.. they CHOOSE whether or not they let prior versions they use and they ALREADY DO THIS AS PART OF THEIR NORMAL INTERACTION WITH STEAM.

i would prefer we discuss the actual suggestion, rather than speculate on what developers are and are not willing to do.. since.. you know.. they already do this many of them.

Therefore all of your arguments COMPLETELY MISS THE TARGET. I'll let you have last word then I will reply to your posts no more, I believe you are a troll, sir.

If you want to discuss whether or not developers should only release one verison of a game at a time.. that's a completely other thread.. please go create it and we will debate that there. I don't expect it to be popular.

[Mad Scientist]

Maelstrom Vortex eredeti hozzászólása:

both on private accounts.

That has no bearing on the subject nor would you find anything that could possibly invalidate their opinions by seeing their profile.

Mine was friends-only, now it's private. That is also meaningless to the discussion

Would I magically possibly be one of them? No. You can disagree without getting personal, we've only seen a few actual alt accounts or people blatantly parroting each other; and it is not them.

Maelstrom Vortex eredeti hozzászólása:

And if modders don't udpate mods, their mods simply fade into antiquity, there IS NO BURDEN ON A DEVELOPER AT ALL BY MY PROPOSAL.

Except workshop stuff etc, the modders can already list the version, write update notes, etc. This basically already exists. Other modders use sites that as well, list the version of the game the current version of the mod supports.

Much like the other thread about modding, each party has the tools at their disposal, but they often refuse to utilize it.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

What you are saying about him not being the same person.. may or may not be true. I only know that the argument is essentially identical and already made and has not been convincing to me as much of it is based on the same apparent lack of knowledge on how versioning would be handled under the proposal. (Despite multiple explanations being provided to both). They even use same syntax, terminology, and sentence structure and to some degree reasoning.. but.. yeah.. they could be different people.

If they were convincing me a completely different proposal that was like mine, but required developers to do something they don't already do was not a good idea, I'm convinced! No further convincing required!

Maelstrom Vortex eredeti hozzászólása:

And if modders don't udpate mods, their mods simply fade into antiquity, there IS NO BURDEN ON A DEVELOPER AT ALL BY MY PROPOSAL.

Except workshop stuff etc, the modders can already list the version, write update notes, etc. This basically already exists. Other modders use sites that as well, list the version of the game the current version of the mod supports.

Much like the other thread about modding, each party has the tools at their disposal, but they often refuse to utilize it.

The tool as I am descirbing it does not exist and is better than the existing tools (which is likely why current tools aren't used).

Sometimes people won't use a feature because they do not like the feature, it can be better. This is likely the case with this suggestion as it radically simplifies mod management and roll-out. How many modders have to contend with telling people where to find the right version of their content for a particular release? They'd not have to hunt around anymore. And modders would not be as burdened with that task, Steam's interface/code would handle most of that connecting version to version 1.0 to 1.0, 2.0 to 2.0 etc. The proposal is more about organizing than it is just about anything else, making the tools better so more people will WANT to use them.

Key concerns for developers about modding and modders it that if they allow modding then users will get frustrated from bad mods, the mod hunt, and then also load up their support with things not related to their original game content. This tool actually helps mitigate that so developers would actually see a boon out of this proposal and those that currently do not use branch versioning might even decide to start doing it if they could see they could get some user managed stability out of such a system.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Nx Machina eredeti hozzászólása:

Firstly you are betting on and placing a reliance on developers to actually visit the workshop and post information.

Secondly 3rd party mods are not (in general) officially supported by developers and therefore are by definition not compatible with a game version after creation unless said mod is a framework for other mods to build on or hook into.

Thirdly if the modder long ago abandoned the mod, you are relying on them to come back and either update the information and or update the mod or provide version choice which links to the developer providing version choice for functionality of your suggestion, after all without said input from both parties, there would be no point in the suggestion been implemented.

And these are all reasons why users should be able to control what versions they have and run.

Nx Machina eredeti hozzászólása:

And finally this is a discussion forums where other users can post and express opinions in favour of a suggestion and or point out flaws in a suggestion and relevance is not reliant on affirmation of a suggestion.

And here you go again with your mantra about your opposing affirmation.

Nx Machina eredeti hozzászólása:

And finally mods are available from other sources so exactly how do you resolve that issue if only 1 out of the 10 mods you have installed is directly from the workshop whilst the other 9 are from another source and the 1 from the workshop is not causing issues.

Easy: Let people maintain their own installed version of the game and don't disrupt it with updates if people don't want them.

Nx Machina eredeti hozzászólása:

I have fully explained my position regarding your suggestion and pointed out its flaws whereas you seem to be focusing on requiring affirmation and disregarding anything else not in line with it, so to finalise.

What is with your apparent need to oppose affirmation?

Nx Machina eredeti hozzászólása:

Maelstrom Vortex eredeti hozzászólása:

You are entitled to that belief, pity it comes out of misunderstanding (willful or not unkown). Your objection is noted. Please move on and allow others who can describe an actual problem with the suggestion to post.

There is no misunderstanding on my part .

If developers cannot be bothered to offer version choice via branches now, and modders cannot be bothered to update mods, nor provide version choice, then it has nowhere to go especially when the ONLY solution is version choice via branches from developers to keep you on your desired version, but if a game has an update then the developers are the ones who want you on that version and Steam is only the tool not the master.

That is NOT the "ONLY solution", by any means.

There are various paths by which users can maintain installed versions of games. These include running the game outside of Steam and changing/backing up files manually.

Users do not, and should not, need to depend on developers and/or Steam to provide them the choice.

You are continuing to state a falsehood.

You are also continuing to state a second falsehood, which is that Steam does whatever the developers want. This is not true at all; Steam provides the framework which developers have to adapt their projects to. Steam is the ultimate decider since it is the infrastructure itself.

Maelstrom Vortex eredeti hozzászólása:

So you are basically a clone of the guy who proceeded you.. both on private accounts. I'm going to guess I'm arguing with the same dude who couldn't comprehend how this works the first time around.

They're not clones; they're just both people who frequently oppose suggestions and also argue really badly.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Maelstrom Vortex eredeti hozzászólása:

So you are basically a clone of the guy who proceeded you.. both on private accounts. I'm going to guess I'm arguing with the same dude who couldn't comprehend how this works the first time around.

They're not clones; they're just both people who frequently oppose suggestions and also argue really badly.

I am actually very skeptical because of both just how nearly identical their contents and objections are down to their use of certain phrases, words, and sentence structure. I think there's a high probability there is a troll bouncing across alt accounts here. They also share identical misunderstandings on how the proposal works despite function being outlined.

One also began immediately after I stopped interactions with the other as if a continuity of prior conversation.

I put the odds of NX_Machina and Start_Running being the same entity at >66%.

[Aachen]

Maelstrom Vortex eredeti hozzászólása:

.... I put the odds of NX_Machina and Start_Running being the same entity at >66%.

They aren’t.

[Spawn of Totoro]

Maelstrom Vortex eredeti hozzászólása:

They're not clones; they're just both people who frequently oppose suggestions and also argue really badly.

I am actually very skeptical because of both just how nearly identical their contents and objections are down to their use of certain phrases, words, and sentence structure. I think there's a high probability there is a troll bouncing across alt accounts here. They also share identical misunderstandings on how the proposal works despite function being outlined.

One also began immediately after I stopped interactions with the other as if a continuity of prior conversation.

I put the odds of NX_Machina and Start_Running being the same entity at >66%.

I put it at 0%.

Now, lets stay on topic please. You don't have to reply or interact with people you don't want to, but lets not call people out for things. If you feel there is an issue, please just report the post.

Thank you.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Spawn of Totoro eredeti hozzászólása:

Maelstrom Vortex eredeti hozzászólása:

I am actually very skeptical because of both just how nearly identical their contents and objections are down to their use of certain phrases, words, and sentence structure. I think there's a high probability there is a troll bouncing across alt accounts here. They also share identical misunderstandings on how the proposal works despite function being outlined.

One also began immediately after I stopped interactions with the other as if a continuity of prior conversation.

I put the odds of NX_Machina and Start_Running being the same entity at >66%.

I put it at 0%.

Now, lets stay on topic please. You don't have to reply or interact with people you don't want to, but lets not call people out for things. If you feel there is an issue, please just report the post.

Thank you.

Will do. Thank you for affirming they are just two people with similar opinions. You never know these days.

I will reiterate a point that has been commonly made among prior posters that simply isn't true so as we can continue discussion in clarity:

The proposal I have put forward puts 0 pressure on developers to do anything other than what hey already do. They provide a game version to steam. Some developers let those versions and branches be cataloged so players do NOT have to disrupt their current game content and allow them to play prolonged campagins. This is a positive, good feature for the community, particularly in the grand strartegy and simulation categories.

The proposal I have put forward ENABLES mod creators to tag their content versions based on a drop down or checkbox system making it easy for them to specify which branch version a particular install of their mod belongs to a specific base game, reducing the confusion of users of their mod and the game both and allowing the modder to address mod concerns across versions from the same page and to update at will WITHOUT destroying user's existing game content if they do not wish to update their games yet. This is done by a library of mod versions being available across the piror version of the game.

This DOES requrie mod creator buy in and active use.. as any version management system will. However, it will be easier in that it allows the modder to organize all their content in one area and not have to point users in a dozen different directions to other links and handle questions about the wrong mod or the wrong version of the mod on the wrong mod page.

By having versions consolidated and using the forum to create bug diagnostic titles for specific versions, a mod creator can address all concerns across all versions in one area.. rather than having to hunt down different versions of their own mod, thus reducing work load, thus assisting in helping to encourage mod makers to support their mods longer potentially.

Keep in mind, once a new version of a game comes out, usually the old versions of the mods just sit there as they are complete, there's no reason to update, so this doesn't burden mod creators in any way, it simply helps players manage their content versions and have a much more fluid, uninterrupted game experience by allowing choices on mod version and mod version control over what is on their systems.

[Bowi]

I just want to say to I think suggestions are appreciated. I'm tired of people dropping responsabilities on developers as if Steam/Valve was just a black box which can't evolve.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Bowi eredeti hozzászólása:

I just want to say to I think suggestions are appreciated. I'm tired of people dropping responsabilities on developers as if Steam/Valve was just a black box which can't evolve.

Yup, no developer input is required at all for this suggestion thankfully. It just requires updating how Steam funcctions with its existing data as provided by developers and mod creators already, just proposes a shift on how that information is organized, sorted, and most importantly creates a reference library for mods by version.

[Start_Running]

Bowi eredeti hozzászólása:

I just want to say to I think suggestions are appreciated. I'm tired of people dropping responsabilities on developers as if Steam/Valve was just a black box which can't evolve.

The devs create the product Valve simply grants them the choice as opposed to imposing their own preferences upon the developers.