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"So if you buy keys directly from the developer with a credit card which seems alright but the funds never actually get transferred to the developer (i.e. the payment just eventually fails or you revoke it) they aren't allowed to revoke those keys?"
if this happen, we will get our money back.
And beside it's been what, a year (based on OP statement)?
But in this case, the buyer won't. As i said if the developer has no idea why their keys could be sold in a grey sites its ok to revoke the keys (of course in an appropriate and professional manner)
but if the developer themselves trusted those site and got bamboozled, why the hell the player got punished for it? It's their fault trusting those site, they acknowledge that their product supposed to be able to be bought from those site 'legally' since they made the deal.
If ♥♥♥♥ happen why attack your own player base? attack those ♥♥♥♥♥♥ site instead. sue them or something. Why the hell you as the developer think that punishing your own player base for your own ♥♥♥♥♥♥ business decision is a good idea?
Can I also state AGAIN as nobody appears to be listening that I have never personally bought keys from otakubundle. Nothing actually personal but I'm not interested in those games. I believe I may have bought a GoGoBundle (which I think is the same site) of Greenlight games as I used to buy all the Greenlight bundles to support devs and also hopefully get some Steam keys in the future. In this case, again it was poor behaviour with the dev, whose games made it to Steam but then refused to give keys to the people who had bought his Greenlight bundles. The web site said there was nothing they could do, so poor behaviour at the very least seems to be going both ways with no protection for consumers who are caught in the middle. (I think the game was MechDefender but a quick search throws up plenty of others).
So I have never bought keys from these people, and no I have not been fine. I have had several games revoked now and I'm sick of it. This one was a game I won on SteamGifts, so I should also avoid that web site and free/gift games, which is a shame because it's fun. I like giving away stuff and winning stuff. A couple of others were games I swapped with other users - bundle extras for bundle extras, so I need to stop trading/swapping with people too as sometimes games are traded/swapped several times before they're redeemed and no one knows where they've come from to be sure. So what do I do with bundle extras now? Just not buy bundles if there's a single game I already have? Or let the keys rot? Great, not much point buying bundles either now. I also had one game revoked as it was apparently a 'beta' although that was NOT made clear and people were pretty angry that they didn't end up with full access. The dev said he'd give keys to people who had been 'active' but I had not been as I was waiting for the game to get out of Early Access to play it. So no key for me, and no blowback for the dev for changing his rules.
There have been many other times that keys have been revoked that have not involved 'grey sites'. Recently Humble Bundle made a 'mistake' and sent out a game for free when it had meant to send it for 30 per cent off. So they revoked the keys. That's not a GREY site. Sure you could argue that people knew they shouldn't have been getting it for free but we're still not arguing about 'grey sites' any more, the list of reasons is suddenly expanding. Googling brings up a whole bunch of stories about keys being revoked, none of them involving Otakumaster, so I do not feel 'fine' or 'safe'. It seems to me that people assume if they play by the rules (although there's no list of these rules so we're supposed to know them somehow) they'll be okay and so other people who perhaps aren't very computer savvy like myself are at fault for not knowing these arbitrary rules and inadvertantly breaking them (in this case, don't buy from otakubundle). My point is that the dev can clearly do it for any reason, it seems pretty easy to me if they can do it when they're drunk 'by mistake'. There's no way to be 'safe'. There's no real 'code of honour' that people are going by that means if you don't buy from dodgy places you're fine and if you do, well serves you right, you stupid consumer.
I'm posting in here because it actually says to do that in the Steam terms and conditions, if you are unhappy with something this is how they tell you to seek 'help' and contact them. In the terms and conditions. Rather than supplying a proper way of addressing concerns or contacting Valve. I didn't want to do it at all. Like I said, I have anxiety. And also, no offence to anyone but you have about as little idea as me about what is going on or the legal issues behind it. We can all speculate or offer our opinions but that's not what I want. So please, let me know how I can contact Valve and talk directly to them because there are legal issues with this policy. The only way I can see is through their PR but you have to be in the media. As this forum was headed 'suggestions' I have assumed (perhaps wrongly) that it was monitored by actual employees of Valve. If it's not, then what's the point of making suggestions? My head is hurting.
The 30 day thing is a legal rule. Mainly on web sites you can request a refund for something after 30 days so if I have bought from somewhere like Humble Bundle but then they key is revoked, if it's outside of 30 days consumers are screwed. Also with Paypal and credit cards, if you want to recover your initial payment or open a dispute, you need to do it in a fixed time period, between 30 and 90 days depending. This is reasonable as otherwise people can open disputes years later and the other party might not still have the records/proof. But devs can revoke keys for eternity. That's not right. If I can't go back and get a refund/cancel the purchase because the purchase is considered 'closed' then neither should they.
So I have learned a lot about digital keys versus the steam store that I did not know and that really I don't think people should be expected to know or punished if they don't. I think this should be made clearer to people when they open an account.
It also is part of a worrying trend with these digital companies, and I've had this with Paypal and ebay too, that instead of offering people actual support, they push people into 'forums' where other users do their job for them. Forums can also be very rude and upsetting for people like myself. This is a real issue and I can't even find a way to contact someone from the company I've given so much money to about it. I'm going to be looking to find another way to contact Valve now as it's been made clear to me that they don't actually monitor this forum so will not be responding again. Many thanks.
If you want a good list of trustworthy sites head over to isthereanydeal.com the sites on there have proven history of acting responsibly and in good faith.
I assume one of the following.
- leak keys by the devs, their fault for being irresponsible, but can't really blame them if keys get revoked.
- Someone within the group/company went and stole keys, and try to make a quick buck, behind the group/company back.
- Someone made a deal with the dev,, then got caught reselling keys they were given, as they were suppose to give them away for free.
- Someone bought a huge load of keys, then later did a charged back, which results all those keys bought by the person to revoke the keys.
- Someone made a deal with the dev, and that someone went back on their word in the partnership, and now all the keys are getting revoke.
- Devs just being jerks, and revoking keys. * Very unlikely *
Also I did some digging on can't say I'm for certain, and I might be wrong what I have been reading, as well purchasing from OtakuBundle, and GoGoBundle they're both run by the same person, apparently this person does get keys from other people, not just the indie devs. * I also assume this person is using a bots to search for all giveaways possible he can to restock as well for current or future bundles plan on selling. * <---- Can't confirm, and not sure about it either.
I also read there's problems for replays from him, such as submitting a ticket, and not getting a reply back at all. Give, or take.
In short contact the game devs, find their website if they have one, find their contact page, or email, ask them what the deal with the key getting revoke, explain where you got it from, also don't be rude, as really you want to find out why the keys got revoke.
Also if anyone hoping to get a refund from the devs, you're not going to get it from them, you bought a key from someone else, not the devs, devs can make as many keys as they want and they are free, and yes that's a fact, so if you bought something from someone that's not the devs you bought it from, in which they own you nothing, it's the person you got the key is who you have to take it up with if you truely want a refund, that means if you bought it from OtakuBundle, take it up with them.
Yeah you shouldn't piece your idea of how the world works from YA novels.
An oh lordy crazycatlady posted again.. let me get muy coffee.
[quyote]Basically I only have YOUR opinion on what is dodgy or not. You can't blame people for not knowing where is 'safe'.[/quote]
Common sense comes into play. If you see a key for game being sold well below what other retailers are selling it for, that should raise suspicions. At least enough for you to take a look at their refund /replacement policies. If you see a guy selling a porche for 5gs then that clearly should set of some warning bells. Assuming you aren't too busy jumping for joy at finding such a sweet deal. Greed clouds judgement.
Actually its not take g2a, Notice how that got censored., That's because there have been many reports of shennanigans associated with that site. But say humblebundle.com amazon.com gog.com, fanatical.com...did you notice .. none of those are censored.
They can but those sites are also hosted out of jurisdictions beyond the reach of conventional law enforcement. The most that can be done is that banks and payment providers shut them out but its rather easy to open accounts like that so.. yeah.
Well what can be shown is whether or not the ketys sold by those sites have any corresponding ledger entries on the developer's part. If they do not, shennanigans have been a foot.
Was the dev selling the bundles? because that's the important level of abstraction there. If there is not evidence of any contract on the devs part...well then. they are not obligated to honor the contract.
Likely because they know the promnise they put on the site was not legit iun the first place. They would actually be ina position to file a lawsuit against the developer if there was an actual legit contract between the two parties.
No that was correcting an error. Totally on the up and up. No money had changed hands so it falls under 'no harm no foul' it's like a waiter bringing the wrong order to your table and then taking it back. You still get the order you paid for later.
So yeah recovering human error is also a thing. But that case isn't so much a revocation as it was a refund.due to error. Ie The transaction was reverse . The consumers were given back their money and the store took back their stuff. except since it was a free item there's no money to give back which means there's no actual loss for the consumer. Had money actually changed hands then the refund would have to be iussued or they be allowed to keep the game and the company would have to eat the cost. Whichever was cheaper.
ytes they do and they will in response point you in the direction you need to go if its not something within their power.
You acquired the key from an outside source. Ergo there is no contract with Valve. ergo Valve can do nothing but tell you to take it up with the source you acquired the key from., they are the ones you had a contract with.
[quoteThe 30 day thing is a legal rule. Mainly on web sites you can request a refund for something after 30 days so if I have bought from somewhere like Humble Bundle but then they key is revoked, if it's outside of 30 days consumers are screwed.[/quote]
All refunds at humblebundle are discretionary. and for most every site there's a 2 week rule.. Assuming you never activated or downloaded the game. Again if a key you purchased in good faith was revoked without just cause then that's something to take up with the retailer or the developer themselves but one of them owes you money and the retailer can provide evidence that you did indeed legally acquire a key they had license to sell. At which point the only reasons for the developer to revoke would be EULA violation or expiration. I.e the key was not activated for too long and the developer just wiped all unactivated keys from a batch. It such cases the developer will typically oblige you with a replacement key once you provide proof of purchase. nasmely the invoce the retailer sent you in confirmation of the order.
In the case of a EULA violation you get nothing.
Yes they can because of the EULA , If you violate the EULA the pub/dev is no longer bligated to allow you trhe use of the software A contract in this case lasts quite a long time, as in, really for as long as you retain ownership or use of the product.
Not knowing is not the crime... but lets be frank this is rare, and generally only happens in connection to some shaddy practices on the part of the customer or the reseller or even the reseller's supplier. There have been cases of former employees of a developer runninng raxckets of generating and selling keys on the sideline, which is of course illegal.
The answers are usually to be found in the forums or the knowledge base. Human time is valuable . Cant waste it having someone listening to another person rant about things that are irrelevant to the matter. Especially when said person keep recontacting because they didn't like the answer they were given the first five times...
Oy vey. Look I've been buy buying software that requires online activation for well over a decade now. I';ve never once had a license/key revoked. most people go through their entire lives without this happening soi when it happens it's either 'human error, illegal acquisition, or the EULA was violated in some form.
Where the matter is cause by human error it is an easy fix. Where the matter is illegal or EULA violation, the revocation is the apporoved and agreed upon fix. In the latter case the consumer did something they shouldn't have, in the former, its a matter between you and the retailer you actually paid.
Any legit retailer will look into the matter with the publisher to determine the reason for revocation.
a simpel yes or no will suffice and the respond, feel free to paste their respond in the full entirety here, you got from them because the wall of text is getting annoying.
It's not something that it would make sense to lie about since. accountuing records are one thing businesses are very firm on keeping. It doesn't make sense saying you didn't get the money when the bank can confirm the transaction as being completed. Also you're assuming that the bundle sites bought the key block from the devs themselves. It's sorta why you can get a general idea of how legit the site is from the price...Humble bundle is as low as those sorts of things will legitimately get. Anywhere else the question should be how much did they pay for those keys that allow them to sell it at such a low price?
3. BILLING, PAYMENT AND OTHER SUBSCRIPTIONS ⏶
F. Steam Authorized Resellers
You may purchase a Subscription through an authorized reseller of Valve. The "Product Key" accompanying such purchase will be used to activate your Subscription. If you purchase a Subscription from an authorized reseller of Valve, you agree to direct all questions regarding the Product Key to that reseller.
When you activate a product on Steam, you have to click "I agree" to that.
EDIT...And also :
H. Third Party Sites
Steam may provide links to other third party sites. Some of these sites may charge separate fees, which are not included in and are in addition to any Subscription or other fees that you may pay to Valve. Steam may also provide access to third-party vendors, who provide content, goods and/or services on Steam or the Internet. Any separate charges or obligations you incur in your dealings with these third parties are your responsibility. Valve makes no representations or warranties, either express or implied, regarding any third party site. In particular, Valve makes no representation or warranty that any service or subscription offered via third-party vendors will not change or be suspended or terminated.
That last part...."In particular....". That means this part is very important.
1. Your CC info gets stolen
2. Someone buys ton of keys using your CC and pushes them to giveaway sites
3. You find that out and successfully dispute transactions
4. Seller gets ripped off by his CC company/bank
5. Key gets revoked.