TheCrazyCatLady 2018 年 11 月 11 日 上午 1:06
PLEASE stop devs from being able to revoke keys for any reason at all
Recently I had a game someone had given me (Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet) on Steam Gifts revoked. Whereas I'd had the game slightly over a month and not got round to even playing it, other people are reporting having had it in their accounts for almost a YEAR with no problems to suddenly find last week that the dev had decided to revoke the keys.

There's been no official word on the Steam forum for the game as to why the dev has done this but people have reported that elsewhere he's claiming that OtakuBundle, is a 'grey site and you shouldn't buy from there as they're illegal' and that he hasn't been paid for the keys he supplied. Since his game has been in several of this site's bundles I'm not sure why HE is dealing with them if he thinks that they are a 'grey reseller' site. Since he has not revoked all the keys he generated for them I can assume that he WAS paid for the other bundles? Regardless, I don't appreciate games on my account being revoked with no explanation when I personally have never stolen, hacked or not paid for something or paid via 'dodgy' means like a stolen credit card. I'm square with everyone on everything but still I'm the one who is getting stuff taken away because of a business issue between these two people.

This is not the first time this has happened but it now seems to be happening with such regularity that I've become very concerned. I'd like some clarification about what keys I have are 'safe' and what aren't. I have about 7000 games on here and I've spent a lot of money building up a library. To be brutally honest, I don't want to do that any more as I don't feel 'safe' any more. I feel like any of my games can be taken away from me for any reason, at any time. It doesn't matter if I've had that game for 10 years, seemingly, the dev still has the opportunity to revoke people's games. Is that correct? A lot of the games I buy on here are from Steam itself during sales etc - I assume THOSE are 100 per cent safe? Or can devs revoke those too? Others I buy from bundles on sites like Indiegala or Humble Bundle, are those 'safe'? Rceently it seems Humble sent out a 'free' game to people that it 'didn't mean to' and has revoked those keys (about 10,000 in total) so it seems the answer is no.

I can't ask for a refund after 30 days, how come devs can revoke keys an entire YEAR after some people added them to their accounts? That's just not on. It basically means that any game I have on here, regardless of whether I've had it for 10 years, could be revoked by a stroppy dev who's having a bad day or feels like someone somewhere wronged them in some way. Hell, someone could get drunk and just decide to revoke them for ♥♥♥♥♥ and giggles - what recourse do we even have? I actually think that happened recently although my memory is appalling and I can't remember the particular game - I do remember that it was a one man indie dev and that he apologised, said he had been drunk and did it 'by mistake' and told people to contact him with their proof of purchase for a new key. I bet most people don't bother because honestly, I can't remember where I bought most stuff or offer 'proof' months later when I've probably thrown away the payment receipt because I decided to keep it so didn't think I needed it any more. Another guy apparently revoked someone's key for leaving a poor review of the game and speaking out in the discussion board, which I don't have to tell you is really out of order. If we can't be free to leave negative reviews about rubbish games and everyone is too afraid to do that for fear of getting keys revoked, then the reviews system on here will cease working properly.

I realise a digital library isn't the same as a physical library of stuff and that digital things have weird rules, like the way Windows is technically a 'license' and you don't actually really own it at all. On the other hand, I've never woken up and found out that Microsoft has decided that I can't use it any more and bricked my computer because I only own a license and they're trying to get the hardware makers (for instance) to pay them. There's kind of the understanding that although technically this can be done it should really be avoided at all costs.

Recently devs just don't seem to care and although I sympathise with how difficult it is to enforce payments (I've been a freelancer who's worked with international companies, so I totally get it) the recourse really needs to be in a court of law (unions might help and there's a lot of things you can find online like template letters etc.) Generally for small companies fees are low and if you are absolutely sure you have a case you can always try and get someone pro bono or find a debt collection company and offer them a percentage of the money if they can help you recover it. I think if you can't go through with that, you just need to cut your losses. You certainly shouldn't have the right to revoke people's keys without a legal judgement, I can't see how it would even be LEGAL without that judgement behind you, and if you did have that judgement then you wouldn't need to also revoke the keys.

So two things really - and sorry for the length. Could you please make your policy about this clear (as in when can and cannot keys be revoked etc) and could you PLEASE consider at the very, very least making the process a little bit more complex to devs that simply pressing a button. Can they at the very least have to submit a request to Steam which is duly considered, with most being turned down for the reasons above? And after 30 days, as I have said, since I cannot get a refund, I don't think they should be able to revoke a key either. Once it's been either 30 days since they generated it or 30 days since it's been on someone's account, that's it, it's 'safe'.

Because otherwise I don't know, I don't think I feel 'safe' spending so much money on stuff on Steam any more. If it can get taken away at any point for any reason and then I have to go back to whoever I bought it or got it from (most places also have 30 day refund policies so I'll never get the money back), it just makes me very anxious about the whole thing. I need to feel that if I buy something on here, it's a serious contract and it won't be broken except in the most extreme circumstances (and sorry, a business falling out between a dev and a reseller he's agreed to do business with is not one of those).

(I did search for revoke and revoked and revoking and couldn't find anything, but apologies if this HAS been discussed before and I just couldn't find it)
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正在显示第 166 - 177 条,共 177 条留言
Now even Indiegala keys are being revoked. With such attitude of developers/resellers/Valve, I feel like I will never purchase any games again. Who wants the headache of shrinking library, without any fault? Being a freeloader is the perfect way of life. Giveaways, here I come.

And if I ever feel like being generous again, I will most certainly head to DRM free distributors.
With Steam keys your access can be revoked. If you get games DRM-free, once you've paid for the game and downloaded it, you have access to it.

(Someone is gonna mention that it's possible to seek a refund after that. Don't be the dishonorable jerk who does that; that just makes everyone unhappy, including the dev that made the game you want. Instead, save your money first, by checking out the game first and not buying willy-nilly.)

Anyhow, free (and fully legally free) games are a dime a dozen zero dimes many dozens on the internet anyway. One can produce a backlog just from them.
最后由 Quint the Alligator Snapper 编辑于; 2020 年 4 月 9 日 上午 9:12
Start_Running 2020 年 4 月 9 日 上午 11:52 
引用自 Laptop
引用自 Start_Running
That's basically like saying.

- Don't give out you steam credentials to gambling sites.
- Don't misuse the trading interface
- Don't let other people use your account.

And yet....
There are people who justy focus on being very very cheap.
Then that's the risk they take, punishing developers and whatnot for it isn't fair. If these sites are selling the games dirt cheap then it isn't as if someone will be out of pocket for thousands of dollars anyway if a single CD key is revoked.
OH I agree that it is the price one pays for being cheap. Buying from a reputable store will have no risks.. As mentioned if a legit store has a key recvoked, you can request either a replacement or refund and they are legally bound to give it to you.

The shady ones, do not have this requirement and ergo while you get it dirt cheap..you have no security.
Start_Running 2020 年 4 月 9 日 上午 11:53 
Now even Indiegala keys are being revoked. With such attitude of developers/resellers/Valve, I feel like I will never purchase any games again. Who wants the headache of shrinking library, without any fault? Being a freeloader is the perfect way of life. Giveaways, here I come.

And if I ever feel like being generous again, I will most certainly head to DRM free distributors.
With Steam keys your access can be revoked. If you get games DRM-free, once you've paid for the game and downloaded it, you have access to it.
Of course if the key is revoked before you download it, then you're just as screwed...
Quint the Alligator Snapper 2020 年 4 月 9 日 下午 12:42 
引用自 Start_Running
With Steam keys your access can be revoked. If you get games DRM-free, once you've paid for the game and downloaded it, you have access to it.
Of course if the key is revoked before you download it, then you're just as screwed...
And the same would apply if you haven't downloaded the game on Steam too.
Start_Running 2020 年 4 月 9 日 下午 12:46 
引用自 Start_Running
Of course if the key is revoked before you download it, then you're just as screwed...
And the same would apply if you haven't downloaded the game on Steam too.
Yes. That's the point I made thank you for repeating it.
Quint the Alligator Snapper 2020 年 4 月 9 日 下午 12:50 
引用自 Start_Running
And the same would apply if you haven't downloaded the game on Steam too.
Yes. That's the point I made thank you for repeating it.
Good, I'm glad we agree on this.
crunchyfrog 2020 年 4 月 9 日 下午 4:35 
引用自 Start_Running
引用自 Laptop
Then that's the risk they take, punishing developers and whatnot for it isn't fair. If these sites are selling the games dirt cheap then it isn't as if someone will be out of pocket for thousands of dollars anyway if a single CD key is revoked.
OH I agree that it is the price one pays for being cheap. Buying from a reputable store will have no risks.. As mentioned if a legit store has a key recvoked, you can request either a replacement or refund and they are legally bound to give it to you.

The shady ones, do not have this requirement and ergo while you get it dirt cheap..you have no security.

Exactly correct.

You play with fire, you're likely to get burned at some point.
MalikQayum 2020 年 4 月 9 日 下午 4:59 
respond to: https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/1752358461537660395/?tscn=1586440309#c2270319347573095492

Not everything is documented and often many of these questions being asked in the steamworks dev group, happens to be answered by valve employees directly there, in that topic.

those topics i can not share but they pretty much say the same as i have been telling you.

but what can be talked about is the public documentation on it and even that tells the same thing as i been saying.

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/keys#3
Steam Key Rules and Guidelines
You should use keys to sell your game on other stores in a similar way to how you sell your game on Steam. It is important that you don't give Steam customers a worse deal.

It's OK to run a discount on different stores at different times as long as you plan to give a comparable offer to Steam customers within a reasonable amount of time.

Occasionally it may make sense to offer your game in a bundle or subscription, timed at the right point in a game's life cycle. Keep in mind that the perceived price in the bundle/subscription should be a price you are willing to run the game at a standalone price or discount on Steam. Philosophically, you can think about it like any other discount: if you’re making an aggressive offer in one place, make it elsewhere too. We want to avoid a situation where customers get a worse offer on the Steam store, so feel free to reach out to us via the Developer Support tool if you want to talk through a specific scenario.

this was the point i was making with the 10 dollar and the 1 dollar, the fairness.

telling others that developers/publishers can do whatever they want with the keys, is factually wrong. that some devs do whatever they want is another matter but it is definitely not something valve is ok with.

Steam keys shouldn't be given away for free if you aren't also offering the same deal (i.e., give the game away for free) to Steam customers. If you want to run a giveaway on Steam, please reach out to us at Steampublish@valvesoftware.com

that some developers/publishers give away their games on various sites and does not have a giveaway on steam is also not right. I am aware that it happens but it isn't allowed.

Steam keys shouldn't be sold in bulk. For example, you should not sell your game on sites that offer customers the option to purchase large numbers of copies of your game for a lower price. You should also not include your game in bundles on sites that allow customers to purchase multiple copies of the bundle for a lower price.

this is effectively what otakubundle did, they allowed multiple purchases of the same bundle, clearly they did not give 2 cents about valves policy because they were not directly dealing with valve.

indiegala did the same thing with happy hours and all that is not allowed.

back to the point here, devs/pubs, can't just do whatever they feel like with steam keys, they have rules and guidelines and those are very strict.

side note: it should come as no surprise that valve is very bad at enforcing their policies and that has only gotten worse with time, as the catalog of games / software etc has grown in such a size that keeping an eye on everything is more or less a task nobody can handle.
so the only way valve is going to find out is if the community makes them aware of it.
最后由 MalikQayum 编辑于; 2020 年 4 月 9 日 下午 5:06
Frungi 2020 年 4 月 9 日 下午 8:38 
I admit I stopped reading in the second paragraph of the OP, but it sounds like your issue is really with the shady reseller, not with Steam or the developer. And I’m sure this point has been well covered in other posts. If your friend is giving money to thieves, those are the two parties to place the blame on.

Edit: just noticed this thread is a year and a half old. I’ll be going now.
最后由 Frungi 编辑于; 2020 年 4 月 9 日 下午 8:40
Dr.Shadowds 🐉 2020 年 4 月 9 日 下午 9:46 
引用自 MalikQayum
respond to: https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/1752358461537660395/?tscn=1586440309#c2270319347573095492

Not everything is documented and often many of these questions being asked in the steamworks dev group, happens to be answered by valve employees directly there, in that topic.

those topics i can not share but they pretty much say the same as i have been telling you.

but what can be talked about is the public documentation on it and even that tells the same thing as i been saying.

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/keys#3
Steam Key Rules and Guidelines
You should use keys to sell your game on other stores in a similar way to how you sell your game on Steam. It is important that you don't give Steam customers a worse deal.

It's OK to run a discount on different stores at different times as long as you plan to give a comparable offer to Steam customers within a reasonable amount of time.

Occasionally it may make sense to offer your game in a bundle or subscription, timed at the right point in a game's life cycle. Keep in mind that the perceived price in the bundle/subscription should be a price you are willing to run the game at a standalone price or discount on Steam. Philosophically, you can think about it like any other discount: if you’re making an aggressive offer in one place, make it elsewhere too. We want to avoid a situation where customers get a worse offer on the Steam store, so feel free to reach out to us via the Developer Support tool if you want to talk through a specific scenario.

this was the point i was making with the 10 dollar and the 1 dollar, the fairness.

telling others that developers/publishers can do whatever they want with the keys, is factually wrong. that some devs do whatever they want is another matter but it is definitely not something valve is ok with.

Steam keys shouldn't be given away for free if you aren't also offering the same deal (i.e., give the game away for free) to Steam customers. If you want to run a giveaway on Steam, please reach out to us at Steampublish@valvesoftware.com

that some developers/publishers give away their games on various sites and does not have a giveaway on steam is also not right. I am aware that it happens but it isn't allowed.

Steam keys shouldn't be sold in bulk. For example, you should not sell your game on sites that offer customers the option to purchase large numbers of copies of your game for a lower price. You should also not include your game in bundles on sites that allow customers to purchase multiple copies of the bundle for a lower price.

this is effectively what otakubundle did, they allowed multiple purchases of the same bundle, clearly they did not give 2 cents about valves policy because they were not directly dealing with valve.

indiegala did the same thing with happy hours and all that is not allowed.

back to the point here, devs/pubs, can't just do whatever they feel like with steam keys, they have rules and guidelines and those are very strict.

side note: it should come as no surprise that valve is very bad at enforcing their policies and that has only gotten worse with time, as the catalog of games / software etc has grown in such a size that keeping an eye on everything is more or less a task nobody can handle.
so the only way valve is going to find out is if the community makes them aware of it.
Dude, I just said Steam wasn't chill about them doing things that not following their rules, guidelines, or documents...

But the fact is true, they are free to do things with the said keys, we have games price much lower compare to Steam, can range from cent upwards of $20, which this deal doesn't happen on Steam until much later, may even taken upwards a year for it to happen, we have free key give away by the devs/publisher, which they don't provide same deal on Steam they don't give away, either it's the game, or DLC. Point is Deals happens that you may, or may not see on Steam, and may even be better deal all the time on 3rd party, they never provide the same exact deal on Steam. Even though what you read, and say it's not allowed, that not what happening, as that not being followed, sure not allowed, but I never said it was a right thing to do by not following the guidelines, or rules. People know, Steam knows as well. I doubt Steam not knowing this.

Steam not enforcing it at all what they should be doing with their keys, is what I'm been telling you. I don't see Steam holding a knife telling them they must sell / giveaway same way they sell /giveaway on for these keys.

The thing they will do is deny keys if they're not making sales on Steam store, or asking too much keys, or believe it to be some kind of abuse.

Steam not going to follow exactly word for word with how they use the keys, and pricing if you haven't noticed. But doesn't mean Steam going to keep giving them, or blindly give them away, as I said before.

This is all they can do with the keys.
Sell, or giveaway, what else are you expecting them to do with they keys really? Hoard them? Problem is it's a give, and take.

If game not making any sales, and ask for more new keys, odds are, Steam may deny, and say nope.

If asking way too many keys, of course Steam going to say no.

If you're trying to be an ***hole selling to key much less, and never provide same deal, it's pretty clear Steam may deny future keys for abuse. Steam expect sales on their store.

If you're just giving them away for no reason, yea Steam may deny future keys. If it for a cause, or whatever just got one time just to promote their game, or give for a cause, then Steam may be ok with it, or not, but it's up to Steam whatever they want to do.

Those bundle deal sites can be insane deals, that you will never get those deals on Steam, or may have to wait a really long time for that deal to even happen at all on Steam, it could take years I might add, but bundle deals can be crazy.

Devs/Publishers are, or should be aware of if they try to F with Steam with the keys, know, or should know they may/will get deny for future keys.
最后由 Dr.Shadowds 🐉 编辑于; 2020 年 4 月 9 日 下午 10:29
endrsgm 2020 年 4 月 9 日 下午 10:36 
引用自 brian9824
It's perfectly fine and legal. Keys are issued on consignment and the dev gets paid when the games sell. The problem is some sites are selling the keys and not paying the dev's and the only recourse the dev's have is to invalidate the key to prevent theft.
well, that flies in the face of all jurisprudence.
the 'only recourse'?

you sure about that?
THE ENTIRE legal system isn't a recourse? smh...

revoking the key of someone that paid for a game should be the last resort and an extreme outlier. the guilty party is the seller and the devs can take them to court without punishing the innocent buyer.

doesn't work this way for any other product in the world. and I'm pretty sure tos and eula aren't valid if they try to legalize this.

imagine you own a home. you buy a sink from home depot. you install the sink. 1 year later some guys who work for the manufacturer come and try to take your sink away because home depot didn't pay them for the consignment of sinks?
no.
the manufacturer sues home depot for its monies. you get to keep your sink.


Darren 2020 年 4 月 9 日 下午 11:20 
引用自 endrsgm
引用自 brian9824
It's perfectly fine and legal. Keys are issued on consignment and the dev gets paid when the games sell. The problem is some sites are selling the keys and not paying the dev's and the only recourse the dev's have is to invalidate the key to prevent theft.
well, that flies in the face of all jurisprudence.
the 'only recourse'?

you sure about that?
THE ENTIRE legal system isn't a recourse? smh...

revoking the key of someone that paid for a game should be the last resort and an extreme outlier. the guilty party is the seller and the devs can take them to court without punishing the innocent buyer.

doesn't work this way for any other product in the world. and I'm pretty sure tos and eula aren't valid if they try to legalize this.

imagine you own a home. you buy a sink from home depot. you install the sink. 1 year later some guys who work for the manufacturer come and try to take your sink away because home depot didn't pay them for the consignment of sinks?
no.
the manufacturer sues home depot for its monies. you get to keep your sink.

Depending on who got the key and where they are based it is actually possible that no legal remedy would be available. International law is complex, expensive, and inconsistent. So even though it might seem cut and dried it might not be.

For example a clause where they are only paid if the residuals hit $100, but that is a per entity thing so if Site X got some, and parcelled them out to another dozen sites (per country say) such that all of them hit $99 and thus didn't hit the $100 per entity cap the developer is out over $1100 and it might or might not be legal. The cost to work that out would be expensive, and might have to be done in multiple regions.

Compared to that clicking a button and cancelling the keys if they don't pay up is a much cleaner and easier solution and any legal remedies would require those dozen sites to individual sue and again the legality of this is still up in the air (if they were required to pay the $99 the court would come down on the side of the dev for revoking the product as they weren't paid) so they likely won't do it either.

When you are talking about larger sums, and/or localised to a single country then legal challenges become both more likely (they aren't as expensive compared to what you are going to get) and if in a single country more predictable (it's easier to know whether the terms are enforceable or not when it's not across jurisdictions).
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发帖日期: 2018 年 11 月 11 日 上午 1:06
回复数: 177