Why do downvotes count more than upvotes? It is being abused.

[AutoMcDonough]

My experience is as follows:
There seems to be a small group of users, or one user with bots, using negative ratings to manipulate the Workshop spotlight. In my case, I am seeing this with Space Engineers. It is a comparatively small community compared to other games, so a simple matter of 6 or 10 downvotes has a very large impact on Workshop item visibility.

Please consider removing how much impact a downvote has, it should match upvotes 1:1, not 10:1 or 15:1 as it is now. This is not being used as a rating tool, it’s being used to manipulate rankings.

Also please review data, if there are accounts handing out large amount of downvotes then I would like human eyes on it. These accounts probably don’t even own the game or subscribe to Workshop items, they only exist as Workshop ranking manipulation tool.
Perhaps there are actually humans consistently dishing out 6 downvotes to every mod, but the timing and frequency is extremely consistent.
Should an account that does not even own the game be allowed to vote on it's workshop content?
Please look into it, thank you.

[🅂🄸🅂🄺]

It is hard to provide data to you because we are not able to see dislikes from other mods we can compare to really confirm AutoMcDonough statement.


And if you not create items for the workshop, this discussion is probably not for you.

[nukeguard]

I can confirm this ~6 downvotes within a day of upload of a mod, also if it is in the spotlight reel, the last three mods I have uploaded have received this 6 downvotes within day or two.

[Count_Dandyman]

So from what you are all saying the issue isn't that down votes count too much its that you think there are certain users downvoting everything.

See theres two issues with that claim
1. you have no proof it is the same users doing it
2. You have no proof that there is any malicious intent behind it

See this is the thing once you are in the spotlight reel you get seen more by users that aren't looking through everything and want to see things they consider eye catching, special and worthwhile and there is no rule against someone downvoting something because they don't think it is good enough for them.

[AutoMcDonough]

Count_Dandyman, this discussion is not presented as something you need to justify or dismiss. It is a legitimate concern noticed by many in our community, and I was steered to this forum by steam support. It seems you are not the target audience and only in here to be judgmental, please move on.

[🅂🄸🅂🄺]

Publicado originalmente por Count_Dandyman:

See this is the thing once you are in the spotlight reel you get seen more by users that aren't looking through everything and want to see things they consider eye catching, special and worthwhile and there is no rule against someone downvoting something because they don't think it is good enough for them.

... yes and that's why we may receive some down votes, but not ~6 at the same time. Sometimes these are the only down votes you get. Even after several months and many more views and subscriptions.

Publicado originalmente por Count_Dandyman:

So from what you are all saying the issue isn't that down votes count too much its that you think there are certain users downvoting everything.

I said I never thought about it, but I would not rule it out.
I can't prove it. Because we don't get all the data we need to verify this statement.
But the SE workshop doesn't feel right.

[Spawn of Totoro]

Publicado originalmente por AutoMcDonough:

Count_Dandyman, this discussion is not presented as something you need to justify or dismiss. It is a legitimate concern noticed by many in our community, and I was steered to this forum by steam support. It seems you are not the target audience and only in here to be judgmental, please move on.

These forums are for users to discuss suggestions/ideas for Steam and it's services. While Valve may look in these forums for ideas, they will not respond.

Any user can comment and participate in the discussion, even if the statement is in doubt or question of the idea/suggestion.

If all you want to do is report the issue, then you have already done that with your first post and are free to unsubscribe and not participate in the discussion.

As for the issue you stated:

Up/Down votes are equal already. I have several workshop items and see the effects of the votes. I know people don't like down votes and tend to feel they are unfair in some way, shape or form, but they still have equal effects on workshop items.

The issue of people down voting could be seen as a valid issue and that would require people contacting support about it, in order to get the matter looked into. To be honest though, I don't think 6 people voting will be seen as much of an issue and there are measures in place to prevent those accounts from mass-down voting items.

[AutoMcDonough]

Publicado originalmente por Spawn of Totoro:

Up/Down votes are equal already. I have several workshop items and see the effects of the votes. I know people don't like down votes and tend to feel they are unfair in some way, shape or form, but they still have equal effects on workshop items.

The issue of people down voting could be seen as an issue and that would require people contacting support about it, in order to get the matter looked into. To be honest though, I don't think 6 people voting will be seen as much of an issue and there are measures in place to prevent those accounts from mass-down voting items.

As mentioned, I have contacted Steam directly about it as well, and I must disagree about the equality of effect. Maybe for star rating it may be, but certainly not regarding the spotlight mystery formula, nor listing by popularity. Each downvote easily negates 10 or more upvotes. When those 6 downvotes hit, it send item tumbling down the list, falling behind items with hardly any upvotes at all. Need 100+ upvotes to climb back from it. Most items don’t manage to climb back a second time.

If I have to drag 10 more modders in here to get you guys to stop being dismissive, so be it. But I would like to think it is not necessary. I would not be in here and contacting steam if this was just a random thing that happened once or whatever. The judgmental attitude is not productive for anything except souring the conversation. I think he is the one who should be welcome to realize he is irrelevant to the conversation and unsubscribe from it.

[Spawn of Totoro]

Publicado originalmente por AutoMcDonough:

As mentioned, I have contacted Steam directly about it as well, and I must disagree about the equality of effect. Maybe for star rating it may be, but certainly not regarding the spotlight mystery formula, nor listing by popularity. Each downvote easily negates 10 or more upvotes. When those 6 downvotes hit, it send item tumbling down the list, falling behind items with hardly any upvotes at all. Need 100+ upvotes to climb back from it. Most items don’t manage to climb back a second time.

If I have to drag 10 more modders in here to get you guys to stop being dismissive, so be it. But I would like to think it is not necessary. I would not be in here and contacting steam if this was just a random thing that happened once or whatever. The judgmental attitude is not productive for anything except souring the conversation. I think he is the one who should be welcome to realize he is irrelevant to the conversation and unsubscribe from it.

You contacted them about the wrong issue. You contact them over an assumption, simply based on your opinion and perceptions.

The matter of people repeatedly down voting is a separate issue.

You need more votes, because it is percentage based and others have a higher percentage then you. Even with 999 positive votes, if there is one negative, the percentage would be 99%. The reverse is also true, even if you had 999 negative votes, a single positive would show the percentage as 1%.

So if someone had 100 votes, all positive, then they would have 100%.

If you were to have a system that only went by numbers, then the one with the highest number would always be on top, regardless of down-votes.

Is it perfect? No, but it is a fair system that does not place more on down then up as they are equally valued.

The problem is how it is being perceived, as the numbers are accurate.

Drag all the modders you want. The numbers of modders don't matter, but the evidence does and numbers of the vote system do as well.

He is allowed his opinion and to question the issue, just as you are.

[Count_Dandyman]

Publicado originalmente por AutoMcDonough:

Publicado originalmente por Spawn of Totoro:

Up/Down votes are equal already. I have several workshop items and see the effects of the votes. I know people don't like down votes and tend to feel they are unfair in some way, shape or form, but they still have equal effects on workshop items.

The issue of people down voting could be seen as an issue and that would require people contacting support about it, in order to get the matter looked into. To be honest though, I don't think 6 people voting will be seen as much of an issue and there are measures in place to prevent those accounts from mass-down voting items.

As mentioned, I have contacted Steam directly about it as well, and I must disagree about the equality of effect. Maybe for star rating it may be, but certainly not regarding the spotlight mystery formula, nor listing by popularity. Each downvote easily negates 10 or more upvotes. When those 6 downvotes hit, it send item tumbling down the list, falling behind items with hardly any upvotes at all. Need 100+ upvotes to climb back from it. Most items don’t manage to climb back a second time.

If I have to drag 10 more modders in here to get you guys to stop being dismissive, so be it. But I would like to think it is not necessary. I would not be in here and contacting steam if this was just a random thing that happened once or whatever. The judgmental attitude is not productive for anything except souring the conversation. I think he is the one who should be welcome to realize he is irrelevant to the conversation and unsubscribe from it.

It doesn't matter how many people you bring here saying they think something is broken or being cheated because it isn't working in their favour that won't change the fact that you have no proof there is a problem

[DarkStar]

You want proof that steams ranking are broken? Well here you go. Note my mod hasn't showing up in the top listings for 6 months and yet I know for a fact these stats are far better than many in the top listings.

I await your explanation Count_Dandy, its easy to sit behind your computer and spew nonsense when nonsense is all you know.

https://ibb.co/gtPS1Dn

p.s. 11 of those downvotes happened in the same day when some butthurt clan came onto my steam page and complained about shields.

[Count_Dandyman]

No when your whole argument is something is wrong because i'm not at the top it is easy to see that you don't actually know or care if there is a problem only about your ego being hurt because somebody else is above you.

[DarkStar]

I have nothing further to say. The facts are clear and I am not going to be trolled by someone who hasn't contributed anything to this community and yet somehow feels they have solid ground to stand on.

[Vicizlat]

A lot has been said already and there isn't much I can add to it. But for all the people that say there is no problem, consider this - the mod spotlight is exactly what the name says - a spotlight. It's a chance for your mod to be noticed by the community and if it's good to become popular. If it's not good, of course it will fall off and be forgotten or at least not among the popular mods.
If you get 6-7 down votes in those crucial first steps then it's almost certain you won't get that chance.
I am far from the idea that my mods should be among the most popular, but I know I have some good stuff and would like for them to get the chance to be seen. If they are not as good as I may have thought the community will show it by not subscribing or voting for them. I certainly have the mods to show that. But I also have the mods to show that if they are good the community will show it if given the chance. And most of them are before these mysterious 6-8 down voters came into play.
My latest mod had 10 up votes within the first few hours of publishing and then overnight it received 7 down votes. That negative kick sent it back so much that it needed almost a full week to get the up votes needed to show on the spotlight. It's now at almost 200 votes with only 1 additional after the "automatic" first 7 down votes.
As for what AutoMcDonough is talking about, inequality between up and down votes, I can't speak about that. In the long run it's probably alright. I never have more than 1-2% negative ratings. But at the start of a mod's life those down votes play a very important role. And the possibility for everyone to vote on a mod even if they have never subscribed to it or if they never actually used it in game (or downloaded it) is very unfair.

[nukeguard]

I have uploaded mods for over 4 years, and only recently have I noticed this behavior of downvote mods when showing up on reel to drop them off, I have my fair share of downvotes on mods.

I have over 100 mods on the workshop, I can clearly see a correlation to immediate downvotes when your mod has just been published. 6 down votes on a newly published mod with less than 20 upvotes will push it right off the reel regardless of how popular it is. The issue is if someone is deliberately down voting mods to keep blueprints on the workshop, that is despicable.

[AutoMcDonough]

Perhaps the percentage is how it is done, that does more plausibly fit my observations.. in how incredibly unfair a negative rating hits when we are talking about items that for the most part are less than 100 ratings.

At this moment, 5 of the 8 SE Workshop items in the spotlight have less than 100 ratings. Throwing 6 downvotes would devastate every single one of them. Even the top one is only a couple hundred. This is a problem, we can’t be having such a small minority steer the content in the spotlight.

Maybe if you are used to AAA games these numbers are small and you don’t care, if that is the case then just move on. But this is a real issue, it matters to us, and I can guarantee that the workshop manipulation happens on a larger scale with those games.

Someone from steam who has access to the actual data should be able to verify all that we have observed.