Hamsterpeek 2019 年 7 月 15 日 下午 2:41
We need community mods in the csgo hub
We've at least 15 top tier worker in the csgo hub forum - including me. Helping hundreds of user daily, all are thankfull, all is good. Sometimes we've trolls in the forum. That's a common thing. Sadly we've no mods in the csgo hub so no one is doing anything against it.

Sometimes those trolls rage completely, they want to rape other, are racists, insult heavily in any other way.

Again. After hours, even days, no ban. The interesting thing is that the helpful user then get banned. Yes. Those who write hundreds of comments every day, helping hundreds of people while spending multiple hours a day in the forum. They get banned. I talked with many of those and all get banned for such tiny non existing mistakes. They get banned for such things like beeing disrespectful because a cheater who got banned for cheater gets called "a cheater".
You now would think "ok, mods will do the job correct, it's your fault", right? Wrong. Those bans get lifted in nearly all cases. The reason is simple: The mods in the support are good worker, top employees having knowledge of what they've doing. They re-read the threads, they know the active user, they see the connection between the posts. And they've the extra-work and lift forum bans all the day. Every week they've and do lift false forum bans.

The problem are the other paid mods who have to do the work which is normally the job of community mods, but they don't exist anymore. So we have valve employees in the forum who've no idea how the forums work, who's an active member in the forum, they never read through the thread and only read the report-message + reported comment and based on that they decide what to do. And then they decide wrong aswell. It's completely random who they ban and then a racist person who's raging in the forum for hours, sometimes even days, don't get banned, but then a person who keeps calm, explain everything objectively etc. get banned.

So. My suggestion is simple. Change that. Give us active forum user in the csgo hub finally mods again. We NEED extra mods. It's one of the biggest hubs on steam and sadly one of the hubs with the most trolls and toxic people aswell. As I mentioned earlier there are at least 15 people who could do this job directly. Not gonna flame the actual employees who decide that. The problem is simply that they're overwhelmed with that job and don't have the exerpience and knowledge for that. That's okay. We've the knowledge and experience. We know exactly the rules. Better than the employees because we write hundreds of posts and work with and around the rules so we can explain everything perfectly. It's not backseatmoderating, but close to that. But we've to do it because we've no mods for our hub.

Thanks for reading and have a good evening.
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Hamsterpeek 2019 年 7 月 16 日 上午 7:03 
引用自 The Giving One
I remember trying to help this one particular user a long time ago in that forum, as I find myself there sometimes trying to help as well, and it was a nightmare. Each time I submitted one post, there was almost a whole new page of unhelpful, insulting, and trolling posts that had to be seen by the OP before they even hopefully got to the one where I provided actual ideas and suggestions for them.

They had a VAC error, if I remember correctly, and I finally got them to post screenshots of their running processes, and to find out there were some there that were a known issue with Steam/games. I think it helped, but I had to give up as the flame war just continued after that and I never saw the OP actually reply the issue was resolved.
This is the perfect role model how many threads in the csgo hub are. Someone has a problem, someone tries to help, someone else starts argueing, then it gets a flamewar, OP kinda overread the help and is overwhelmed by all the spam and kinda ignores the good suggestions etc.

____________________________________________

引用自 quickER
I know that Killahinstinct is there if it's something really serious and probably when he seen many reports.

I had experience with fighting user which was stalking me(posts, reviews,screens, profile,etc.) for a few days and then he got banned for week, added him before as friend just for private talk.

Sometimes you are feeding troll with just nice calm explaining.

But would be interesting having some Comm. Mods (even for some trial days/weeks/month)
Not sure where to apply for that Volunteer position.
引用自 The Giving One
I remember trying to help this one particular user a long time ago in that forum, as I find myself there sometimes trying to help as well, and it was a nightmare. Each time I submitted one post, there was almost a whole new page of unhelpful, insulting, and trolling posts that had to be seen by the OP before they even hopefully got to the one where I provided actual ideas and suggestions for them.

They had a VAC error, if I remember correctly, and I finally got them to post screenshots of their running processes, and to find out there were some there that were a known issue with Steam/games. I think it helped, but I had to give up as the flame war just continued after that and I never saw the OP actually reply the issue was resolved.
Yeah, if you really want to help and have time/mood then adding him as friend to talk in private could be better option
I don't wanna bother the mods the whole time with posting forum-breaking comments and I asked him if it's ok when I contact him directly via his profile comment section and he said a report is enough.

And as I said I saw very bad behaviour in the forum and checked those profiles over multiple weeks and they never got banned even when they wrote very bad stuff. The problem is that it's "random". Some people get banned fast, some people even get community banned then, but other can be so toxic over days, sometimes weeks. And that's sad.

And yes, you're right. Sometimes I feed trolls. It's not my intention, sometimes I'm maybe too much of a good-believer and just hope that we can have a good discussion. But at least I don't fight back.

I also could add people who need help and explain it per private message and sometimes they add me, but I only want people in my list I play with and/or are good friends. Also sometimes my help isn't perfect but someone else has another idea aswell so the forum is still the best place for help.
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引用自 cSg|mc-Hotsauce
引用自 quickER
Where exactly for the curious reason :2016villain: ? I was trying asking Mod in group chat but maybe he can't respond or didn't see my message.

Basically this...

http://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/627456486310424205/#c627456486317035279

Or apply for a job at Valve here... https://www.valvesoftware.com/en/jobs?job_id=27

:qr:
Very good links, I had those in mind already. But I think and hope that this thread kinda shows valve that there is a need for new mods and that they maybe think about some changes...
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引用自 Zetikla
the problem with CS:GO/ Dota 2/ TF2 discussion hub is that theres a LOT pf activity going on and yes, they arent known for being non-toxic


Its just that they cannot easily throw hundreds of ppl at it to start moderating the board, especially when theres so many ppl posting there.

Remember how PUBG discussion board was abandoned by the devs because it got too out of hands? sometimes the cs go discussions almost feels like the same anarchy playground though at least our good Killah is doing his best to keep things under control (and all my respect goes to him, this must be some of the most thankless job).
I absolutely agree with you. But that's also the reason why I ask here for a change. And yes, we've Killah, luckily, but he is just one person and he has other things to do in his life aswell. Even when he'd be moderating the forum 24/7 he'd have no chance to keep the forum clean, not because he works but but because of the amount of things happen in the csgo forum.

____________________________________________

You are right in many points, but I think I would feel uncomfortable having Forum users as mods. It must be people that know the hub but don’t have a history in it.
A ban would have a bitter taste always if not.

We just need more persons like Killah.

Till then I deal with it that when I get banned I dispute them.
In my opinion we've enough user in the forum who're very objective and are able to be a mod. I don't call the names here but I'm sure you already know some of them aswell. They should at least get a trial time to look if it works or not.

And yes, disputing the bans is an option, but it's more work for the support mods and it's always disappointing when someone gets banned for (I wouldn't say " completely nothing", but ...) so tiny things which isn't necessary at all. Keep in mind. We've in the forum to help and do everything we can. Beside the thankful user no one is thankful for our work and we don't even need that, but then as a gift getting banned for so tiny things isn't a good way to deal with the helpful forum user.
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引用自 Echo NO Aim
My experience with paid mods is they don't know the community so they don't see obvious provoking users just trying to bait and trigger. When Killah had a break in his mod time those people really were an issue because Killah knows the community and those troll baiters.
Wise words, exactly this. Killah knows the community but the paid mods don't. But again Killah isn't enough for such a huge forum with so many user and threads. The paid mods are not into the forum so another solution (more csgo hub specific mods) would be a better solution in my opinion.
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引用自 Froggy
引用自 Echo NO Aim
My experience with paid mods is they don't know the community so they don't see obvious provoking users just trying to bait and trigger. When Killah had a break in his mod time those people really were an issue because Killah knows the community and those troll baiters.
The sad part is that Killah is only here temporarily with us now, and will most likely take his leave. He stated on his profile a when he came back that it was temporary, so it's only a matter of time til we go back to the times of no proper moderation and these people who bait and trigger will be pretty much free to run rampant again.
Yep, exactly. I don't know exactly why Killah is back because they obviously just talked about that private and I don't know why he doesn't stay as a mod, but we all know what will happen when he's gone. It will get worse after it. I'd like to see a staff of like 10 mods with maybe Killah as the main mod for that hub. But not sure, maybe he doesn't want to be a mod and it's his decision.
Hamsterpeek 2019 年 7 月 16 日 上午 7:03 
@Killah
引用自 KillahInstinct
I've read your post and while I should probably be a little bit offended, I can't help but see a lot of misconceptions you seem to have about how things work - so not sure if I should. I'm not even sure where to start correcting you on things like "community mods don't exist anymore" (Hi!) and "ok, mods will do the job correct, it's your fault", right? Wrong. Those bans get lifted in nearly all cases. The reason is simple" (Those are the same teams/people, and they get lifted because they now apply a 1-time goodwill policy).
Thanks for your reply, no need to be offended, not here to rant about mods or anything, just looking for a way to improve the current system because many of the active forum user aren't happy about the current state. Based on the replys of the support mods it's not a goodwill policy, the mods responded with a clear statement that the ban wasn't necessary. Also some user got banned multiple times so the argument that it's a 1-time goodwill decision isn't true at all. It's maybe in some cases, you're right, I get your point. But not in all. When a user get banned 5 times in half a year and every ban get lifted after a support ticket because the ban was a false ban (clearly said by the support mods) then it's not just a 1-time thing.

引用自 KillahInstinct
I think the most important part is that as others pointed out, reporting is an important part of the bigger picture. This isn't just a problem in Steam, it's a problem on any big online platform* - there is simply too much content being generated for any sane amount of people to watch entirely - which is why there are report buttons everywhere that overall serve a tremendous purpose (oh god I'm starting to sound like Trump).
* take for example YouTube, 400 hours of content are uploaded every minute (source[www.brandwatch.com])
I also get your point here and that's also what I mentioned as a problem. There is so much content, also so much content with breaking rules but then there is no direct solution. The support of youtube, facebook etc. isn't very good. They also decide wrong very often. Saw enough racist hatespeech there and then when you report it it's not against their rules. It's not a question of having a perfect running system where nothing wrong happens or clear the community entirely, that's not possible. But we can at least reduce the issues and more csgo hub mods would clearly reduce the problem. I kinda feel bad because in my opinion I even report a little bit too much. Sometimes I report a person for every post he write in a thread because every single post is breaking the forum rules entirely. And then I look at the thread multiple days and I don't see that the person got a ban. And he proceeds his bad behaviour for even more days/weeks. So he didn't even get a warning. The best solution in that case is when there are enough mods so one mod can write in the forum, that the user should calm down. That would even help more than just banning him or giving him a warning. Of course it takes time. But many mods can share this time. And to be honest... we currently have so many user actually doing exactly that. But of course they don't listen to the friendly user because the trolls know that they've no mod rights.

There are also a couple of others things to limit the content:
- Game/Vac banned user should post in the vac forum, the vac forum could also get a name change to Vac/Game ban Forum. We get a lot of posts, nearly all of them of course just trolls, who claim to be innocent.
- We get a lot of necro posts in the forum aswell. The Blizzardforum, but also reddit uses a method do autolock threads after no response for 3/6 months. That could help against necro threads.
- We also get spamposts by limited account-user like advertisement for scamsites etc. - In order to get a non-limited account you've to pay 5 dollar. That should be the case for the csgo hub. A new user should still be able to post in other forums of course, not all are bad, some have questions etc.
- Some spam in the forum for the badge because they still think writing a post is still necessary and they don't understand that they only have to use the search function. We should find ways to prevent that aswell. I think the biggest problem for that is that the user use old guides instead of reading the tasks of the badge directly. Maybe the guides can get changed from mods. Not sure how many of those exist tho.
- There are also ways to minize the amount of threads. As we all know many threads will get created multiple times because the user don't use the search function or browse through the forum before they make a thread. So there exist like 10 threads for each topic. When creating a topic and some specific words get used in the title there should be a system which detects actual threads about the same topic and the user who just wants to create a topic should get a message that those threads already exists and that he should use those threads if possible. Some forums use this already and many support sites work as this aswell.

= All these things would reduce the amount of spam etc. - including new mods could minimize the spam, toxicity, unnecessary posts. I'm not a webdesigner so I can't make it, but those are ideas other forums and sites use. With that we'd have less content, more quality content and more mods to moderate the content.

引用自 KillahInstinct
This and some other factors do come with a paradigm shift, because whereas previously moderators might have been able to moderate hands-on and simply participate in the forum of their choice, which also has the added benefit of getting more of a feel for the place and hopefully contribute constructively as a user as well as a moderator, you now have a legion of moderators that might or might not be be valued by how many reports they deal with, but can look at things way more objectively (if you're helpful in 99% of your posts but you insult someone in the other 1%, you should still get banned).
I agree that someone should get banned when he insults another user no matter what. But currently they get banned without insulting someone (as an example). And that's the problem. It's not always objectively, it's more like nitpicking. It's like you see someone on the street and you decide if you dislike or like him only based on what clothes he wear and how he walks. You don't decide based on his opinions, how he speaks or if he's a good person, you just judge him based on very limited measurements. You look at your rulebook, in your rulebook you see that green color is forbitten and then you decide that you dislike him (should get banned). But that the green color has a reason, that it's well written, has a reason and isn't a bad color at all, that's something the decider don't notice. And that's currently the problem. Those objective mods see a text, see the rules and decide. Based on that at least every third comment in the forum has a banreason for non-constructivity etc.

The people who've the right to decide aren't just bots, they should always see the whole. A police officer wouldn't shoot at someone just because he makes a tiny mistake. They close one eye and talk with them. They say: "Ok that wasn't the best you did but don't make it worse). I miss the empathy basically. It's not always necessary to swing the banhammer. Not even for people who break the rules clearly. Sometimes it's a better learning process when the police officer / moderator talks with the person. Heck, even in football you don't even everyone a yellow card for a foul, sometimes a little discussion with the player as a ref is better.
引用自 KillahInstinct
You therefor do have a point however about moderators possibly looking at only the reports though, and that's something that I've been hammering on as well - but they need to learn, and processes need time to adapt. Unlike a community moderator who might have been picked because he already has shown to be likely capable of doing what is needed, this is simply a job - possibly even with someone who doesn't care about these games, or games at all.
All I can say to that is, find a fruitful way to list and categorize your issues, a protest if you will - so that Valve can be aware of it and take steps to have these teams learn from it.
You're right. It takes time. I have no problem with this aswell. Only thing which is sad is when the decisions result in a chain effect: One person doesn't get banned for trolling - but the person who mighty have been trolled get banned. This changes the mentality and attitude of forum user. We already have forum user who attempt to troll more because of it and we've forum user who stopped using the forum because of it. So one of the most important things those paid mods should learn is getting a feeling for the right decision. Some people put really hard work into the forum and when those get banned it's a shot right in the feelings of those user. Mods should learn that their decision can result in a change reaction of bad feelings and negative ways.

Whenever I see a comment which is against the rules I write into the report message exactly what's the problem. Most likely non-constructive stuff, sometimes racism, trolling, baiting, spamming, necroing, all the stuff one comment breaks I write down. With that I kinda show the mods what exactly is the problem with a specific comment. I also write a bit more and explain exactly what the problem is, that he's doing it for days etc. - I think mods who read the banmessage then have a good overview what the problem is.

The process is running since more than half a year, sadly I don't see any improvement yet. And I still don't know why valve fears to give users mod rights. They don't have to pay for it, it's basically a self-running process and the result is a more positive and cleaned up forum. Negative aspects are obviously false bans etc. but that's something we've currently aswell and I'm very sure the new community mods would learn it very fast how to decide correctly (when to give a warning, when a ban, how long etc. pp.). And problems in the forums would get solved way faster aswell.

引用自 KillahInstinct
All in all, I think there is definitely a (natural) step back being taken, but it beats the alternative of no moderation whatsoever. I can assure you we weren't getting to like 90% of the reports and only rushed from fire to fire, which made it look good from the outside but isn't proper moderation either, and now the reports are kept up with mostly.
Yes, the paid mods are clearly better than no moderating at all. But I'm sure we'd get less reports (because community mods would already extinguish the flamewars before they grow) and they could keep the forum much cleaner. Less reports, more people who're into the community and forum, more moderating presence in the forum and direct help from community mods in the threads before people even report them. And that's all for 0 costs and just very low risk that something went wrong. For me it doesn't sound bad. It sounds better than the current paid mod solution.

引用自 KillahInstinct
NB I think it's a bigger problem of both IT and the internet going through a phase I like to called becoming adults and puberty, respectively. It comes with growth pains.
Yeah and that's why we're all here, to help the IT/Internet through this process. For that we need ideas and solutions and prevention is probably the most important part of it.
Yes, I know them and I don’t think any of them would be suitable to be a mod, tbh.

Just because someone has an answer to everything doesn’t mean they are capable to be a mod.

I still prefer a solution with non community members as mods.
Scooty 2019 年 7 月 16 日 上午 7:44 
One thing about Steam I never could stomach, all the damn moderators.
KillahInstinct 2019 年 7 月 16 日 上午 7:44 
引用自 Ray
I don't wanna bother the mods the whole time with posting forum-breaking comments and I asked him if it's ok when I contact him directly via his profile comment section and he said a report is enough.
To reiterate on this a bit, none of the mods will be bothered by a 'special' report if the situation is 'special' enough to require as such. Obviously this is highly subjective, and that makes it tricky. The reality is 99% of the comments on my profile are repetitive, easily Googled or simple lazy comments (leaving out the hate comments) - and for me personally it's only special enough to 'trigger' me when it's borderline illegal.

Realistically this is a game forum and there are very, very few things that require immediate things and aren't ok with being around for 24 hours.

I've even gone out and given my e-mailadres to a few people so they can contact me in times of dire needs, but only once I realised they knew when to contact me for 'serious stuff' (think.. illegal or really gross stuff being spammed).
最后由 KillahInstinct 编辑于; 2019 年 7 月 16 日 上午 7:44
KillahInstinct 2019 年 7 月 16 日 上午 8:02 
引用自 Ray
@Killah
Thanks for your reply, no need to be offended, not here to rant about mods or anything, just looking for a way to improve the current system because many of the active forum user aren't happy about the current state. Based on the replys of the support mods it's not a goodwill policy, the mods responded with a clear statement that the ban wasn't necessary. Also some user got banned multiple times so the argument that it's a 1-time goodwill decision isn't true at all. It's maybe in some cases, you're right, I get your point. But not in all. When a user get banned 5 times in half a year and every ban get lifted after a support ticket because the ban was a false ban (clearly said by the support mods) then it's not just a 1-time thing.
You're right, there was a period where goodwill bans where given a bit too often (I'm leaving actual unbans out of the picture, as wrongful bans shouldn't happen in the first place) but we discussed it since I got back and now the policy is only 1 goodwill unban per account.

引用自 Ray
I kinda feel bad because in my opinion I even report a little bit too much. Sometimes I report a person for every post he write in a thread because every single post is breaking the forum rules entirely. And then I look at the thread multiple days and I don't see that the person got a ban. And he proceeds his bad behaviour for even more days/weeks. So he didn't even get a warning.
I don't think you can ever report too much, unless you're just trolling of course. If you've some examples I would love to look into that - there's a few known reasons why reports aren't dealt with but I'm not sure if they apply here:
- People don't enter a reason when reporting (perhaps profile only, not sure if still applicable)
- A report was dealt with, the post is edited and breaks rules and reported again - the new report doesn't show up.


引用自 Ray
There are also a couple of others things to limit the content:
<snip>
I agree with all of those and they're very good suggestions. It's another thing I've posted about internally since I got back and I do hope it, or other suggestions, do get picked up. I do believe it's time for Valve to improve/overhaul their community, as it's simple the original vision doesn't work anymore.

引用自 Ray
- including new mods could minimize the spam, toxicity, unnecessary posts.
New mods are added based on the amount of reports (that aren't dealt with).

引用自 Ray
But currently they get banned without insulting someone (as an example). And that's the problem. It's not always objectively, it's more like nitpicking.
Some obvious mistakes aside that are generally sorted by a response to moderator message or Support, I don't really have clear examples of that happening. I therefor can't go back and tell the paid mods 'hey you need to learn from this'. So examples are again welcome.

引用自 Ray
You're right. It takes time. I have no problem with this aswell. Only thing which is sad is when the decisions result in a chain effect: One person doesn't get banned for trolling - but the person who mighty have been trolled get banned. This changes the mentality and attitude of forum user.
I wholeheartedly agree and think a lot of volunteer moderators feel the same way, this too is something I've adressed. I feel the way things are currently leads to trolls being able to hone their skills and the community aspect of it being lost, and while I've proposed some suggestions it's not something I can comment on publically.

引用自 Ray

The process is running since more than half a year, sadly I don't see any improvement yet. <snip>
Yeah and that's why we're all here, to help the IT/Internet through this process. For that we need ideas and solutions and prevention is probably the most important part of it.
Yes, and I thank you for that. While I already said some things I've proposed internally, that's not something I see a need for to comment on out of the blue (but I can respond to it like I did), it's good if there is a central thread that regulars can express their concerns in a fruitfull manner.

It's rare to see a good, constructive thread like this and I think - while it's gotten quite large, it has a lot of good feedback, sentiment and even some suggestions. I do think the OP was a bit besides the point so I hope people can look past that and see later on.
Hamsterpeek 2019 年 7 月 16 日 上午 8:06 
引用自 KillahInstinct
引用自 Ray
I don't wanna bother the mods the whole time with posting forum-breaking comments and I asked him if it's ok when I contact him directly via his profile comment section and he said a report is enough.
To reiterate on this a bit, none of the mods will be bothered by a 'special' report if the situation is 'special' enough to require as such. Obviously this is highly subjective, and that makes it tricky. The reality is 99% of the comments on my profile are repetitive, easily Googled or simple lazy comments (leaving out the hate comments) - and for me personally it's only special enough to 'trigger' me when it's borderline illegal.

Realistically this is a game forum and there are very, very few things that require immediate things and aren't ok with being around for 24 hours.

I've even gone out and given my e-mailadres to a few people so they can contact me in times of dire needs, but only once I realised they knew when to contact me for 'serious stuff' (think.. illegal or really gross stuff being spammed).
In that specific situation the guy insulted all germans, you know, ww1, ww2 and all that stuff. The typical hatespeech against germans. So I'm very sure it is one of those situations where help is required immediately. Same as the thread where a guy said he want to ... a female user. While the last thread got banned very fast and the user community banned, the other user didn't get banned at all but his thread got closed. That's it.

And I got a 3 day ban for non-constructive + disrespectful post.

What I wrote? Lets see:
- It was a thread about a cheater who said he only used few cheats, no wallhack/aimbot
-> I said he got a game ban which means he got caught by overwatch which means he used more than just the things he claimed he used

Is this non constructive or disrespectful? Decide.

- He had the idea that everyone should see healthbars from enemies through walls (which he could use aswell).
-> I said that his idea is stupid. Simple as that. That's not how cs works. I also had arguments for that, explained stuff.

Is this non constructive or disrespectful? Decide.

- Another forum user mentioned that his account looks bought and had few arguments for that.
-> I agreed with him.

Is this non constructive or disrespectful? A little bit. Yes. It's not directly part of the thread. But it was just one comment, one mentioning based on the fact that many cheat accounts (who've to deal with a lot of those in the forum) look bought. Just a little sidenote. Not a banreason at all. Disrespectful? Again. Just a little sidenote and I guess. That's not disrespectful. Beside that I got a 3 day ban but the user who came up with this argument didn't get a ban (which is good because it's not a banreason at all and hundreds of people write the same things a day without getting banned - which is good aswell).

Then I sum up his behaviour and actions in one little endsentence. I said he's a cheater (duh), he's a liar (many people say that to other persons when they cheat and have bad excuses in the forum aswell which is not bannable at all), he's based on that and his behaviour (beeing a cheater, liar, toxic, racist, ...) a bad person and he should feel ashamed.

When this is bannable nowadays, then 99.9% of all forum user would get banned. And all I wrote are things everyone else writes aswell, most of the time with less to no arguments, without sounding objective etc. - yet I got banned.

So in conclusion:
A guy who's new in the forum, cheated in the game, advertise cheats in the forum and is not only toxic but even a racist guy doesn't get banned.
A guy who's doing the job objectively, answering his posts normally and do what many other do in the same or even better way gets randomly banned.

That's why we need community mods. They would read the whole thread. They would know me and the other user. They would know which what persons we deal on daily basis and they would know what a good and hard (and non-paid) job we do as forum user. Not a paid mod who has no empathy to anything and decides depending on the mood who should get banned and who not. A community mod would also be able to talk with people instead of just banning all. I mean, a racist guy who's doing these negative thinks on purpose should get banned. But an active user who just do the same good thing without any insults etc.? Na.

The perfect solution for that case would be a threadlock, a comment from a mod that he is thankful for all the positive input in the thread and a ban for the toxic person (since he's a racist directly a higher ban, maybe even community ban). That's it. No ban for the other user. No warnings, no nothing. They didn't do anything wrong. They did a good job. They did what they do all the day and all the time and they reported the bad person and didn't keep the flamewar rolling.

@killah (sorry for not quoting right but on cell it is painful...)

Regarding the one goodwill ban -> I got a lot of unbans. More then one.
The bans were due to Forum Posts or regarding my profile. And the answers to my disputes gave me mostly the feeling that it was not „goodwill“. It was just that the original ban was not well thought and by a closer look you could see that the ban was not right.
KillahInstinct 2019 年 7 月 16 日 上午 8:31 
@killah (sorry for not quoting right but on cell it is painful...)

Regarding the one goodwill ban -> I got a lot of unbans. More then one.
The bans were due to Forum Posts or regarding my profile. And the answers to my disputes gave me mostly the feeling that it was not „goodwill“. It was just that the original ban was not well thought and by a closer look you could see that the ban was not right.
Yes, perhaps I didn't make that clear enough but the unbans are unlimited if the ban is simply wrong in the first place. There is only one goodwill unban now if someone was banned correctly, but asks for a new chance via Support.
Hamsterpeek 2019 年 7 月 16 日 上午 8:31 
引用自 KillahInstinct
引用自 Ray
@Killah
Thanks for your reply, no need to be offended, not here to rant about mods or anything, just looking for a way to improve the current system because many of the active forum user aren't happy about the current state. Based on the replys of the support mods it's not a goodwill policy, the mods responded with a clear statement that the ban wasn't necessary. Also some user got banned multiple times so the argument that it's a 1-time goodwill decision isn't true at all. It's maybe in some cases, you're right, I get your point. But not in all. When a user get banned 5 times in half a year and every ban get lifted after a support ticket because the ban was a false ban (clearly said by the support mods) then it's not just a 1-time thing.
You're right, there was a period where goodwill bans where given a bit too often (I'm leaving actual unbans out of the picture, as wrongful bans shouldn't happen in the first place) but we discussed it since I got back and now the policy is only 1 goodwill unban per account.
The last lifted bans aren't that old and the lifted bans were correct. People were banned for so tiny things that it's not even worth mentioning. You as a mod can't simply ban all the active user just for one post where they maybe are a bit non constructive. They write hundreds of comments a day and are so important and helpful for the community. When they write one comment where they just say "I think you're right!" they shouldn't get banned for non-constructive. But you know what? They were people getting banned for that.


引用自 KillahInstinct
引用自 Ray
I kinda feel bad because in my opinion I even report a little bit too much. Sometimes I report a person for every post he write in a thread because every single post is breaking the forum rules entirely. And then I look at the thread multiple days and I don't see that the person got a ban. And he proceeds his bad behaviour for even more days/weeks. So he didn't even get a warning.
I don't think you can ever report too much, unless you're just trolling of course. If you've some examples I would love to look into that - there's a few known reasons why reports aren't dealt with but I'm not sure if they apply here:
- People don't enter a reason when reporting (perhaps profile only, not sure if still applicable)
- A report was dealt with, the post is edited and breaks rules and reported again - the new report doesn't show up.
I answered you on that private.

引用自 KillahInstinct
引用自 Ray
There are also a couple of others things to limit the content:
<snip>
I agree with all of those and they're very good suggestions. It's another thing I've posted about internally since I got back and I do hope it, or other suggestions, do get picked up. I do believe it's time for Valve to improve/overhaul their community, as it's simple the original vision doesn't work anymore.
Very good to hear that you like the ideas and even had those ideas aswell and shared internally. Let's hope we get some nice improvements for the forum in the future!

引用自 KillahInstinct
引用自 Ray
- including new mods could minimize the spam, toxicity, unnecessary posts.
New mods are added based on the amount of reports (that aren't dealt with).
Hm, in my opinion that's not enough because as I mentioned later community mods also do preventive work. So in conclusion valve would even need less paid-moderators because the non-paid moderators prevent people from reporting other because they find solution for specific problems (flamewars etc.) before they grow.

引用自 KillahInstinct
引用自 Ray
But currently they get banned without insulting someone (as an example). And that's the problem. It's not always objectively, it's more like nitpicking.
Some obvious mistakes aside that are generally sorted by a response to moderator message or Support, I don't really have clear examples of that happening. I therefor can't go back and tell the paid mods 'hey you need to learn from this'. So examples are again welcome.
We also talk about that private and as you said yourself my comment I got banned for:
引用自 KillahInstinct
I believe your post was fine for the post, but there is no need for the last paragraph.

引用自 KillahInstinct
引用自 Ray
You're right. It takes time. I have no problem with this aswell. Only thing which is sad is when the decisions result in a chain effect: One person doesn't get banned for trolling - but the person who mighty have been trolled get banned. This changes the mentality and attitude of forum user.
I wholeheartedly agree and think a lot of volunteer moderators feel the same way, this too is something I've adressed. I feel the way things are currently leads to trolls being able to hone their skills and the community aspect of it being lost, and while I've proposed some suggestions it's not something I can comment on publically.
I can understand that you can't comment about that in public and I welcome that we're the same opinion and that the mods already do steps in the right direction.

引用自 KillahInstinct
引用自 Ray

The process is running since more than half a year, sadly I don't see any improvement yet. <snip>
Yeah and that's why we're all here, to help the IT/Internet through this process. For that we need ideas and solutions and prevention is probably the most important part of it.
Yes, and I thank you for that. While I already said some things I've proposed internally, that's not something I see a need for to comment on out of the blue (but I can respond to it like I did), it's good if there is a central thread that regulars can express their concerns in a fruitfull manner.

It's rare to see a good, constructive thread like this and I think - while it's gotten quite large, it has a lot of good feedback, sentiment and even some suggestions. I do think the OP was a bit besides the point so I hope people can look past that and see later on.
It's great to hear that we can work so good together and hope we can find good ways for a better forum and community!
Froggy 2019 年 7 月 16 日 上午 9:07 
Im siding with Ray in regards to the moderation being inconsistent.
Ive also considered the suggestion about more moderators, possibly picked from the community.

My thoughts on it is that each dev is responsible for their own hub. If they neglect it, by either not moderating it themselves or appointing someone to moderate for them, their forum should be forfeit and locked. (although I'm well aware thst this most likely won't happen).

However, for csgo, and other valve products that have their own forum, they should be under Valves wing, and should be moderated. If they can't deal with it(as we've seen apparant) they should appoint more people to do it. There are plenty of people who's willing to help out in the respective forums. Now, as we've already discussed, there will be growing pains until people get accustomed to the changes.

My suggestion would be to use a senior mod such as Killah or zef as a "commander" for a group of new recruits if you will. These new moderators should obviously not have as much power as the "commanders". Perhaps have them start out with the power to lock threads, and only in specific hubs. Once they get more accustomed and experienced, increase their access.

That way the quantity of moderation will increase, and with the guidance from experienced moderators, so will the quality. And as such, when/if a new recruit overstep their boundaries, the commander can take it up with the person.

We had a similar system for an old clan I was part of back in the day. By no means close in numbers compared to steam, but it could work, atleast for the most active forums.
引用自 Froggy
Ive also considered the suggestion about more moderators, possibly picked from the community.

I can see this future and it´s dark. More drama out there, because people will call bias, etc. There is already enough drama out there.

You must not be familiar with the cs go forums to moderate them. Just be present when you start as a mod there, also "moderate" and participate, like Killah, instead of being invisible and just locking, deleting and banning. That what real moderators do in every other forum/game hub, etc.
Hamsterpeek 2019 年 7 月 16 日 下午 12:23 
I understand both of your comments and think that something in between is the best solution. I'm not a fan of a "community voting" which person should get mod rights because that's most likely just a competition who's more famouse. The decision who should get mod rights should still be in the hand of valve. But what I see is the idea of a head-moderator and some sub-moderators. In my opinion killah would be the best solution for the head-moderator because he's experienced and can "teach" the new moderator a bit and be there for questions, harder decisions etc.
The question is if killah wants that of course.

Based on that I'm sure it could work. It's kinda like any community, team, clan, streamer, ... if you see it that way. Someone creates it, the most active, professional and best user then are trustworthy enough that you give them more rights. There are plenty of people who're able for that. I personally don't even agree with all of them all the time and had my discussions with them, but I'm still sure they'd be still a good mod (not gonna call any names here). So those wouldn't be mods based on that I like them, but based on their behaviour etc.

And yes, community mods are important. We need people who are active in the forum, who reminds people of the rules, calm people and discussions down and when it gets too toxic maybe lock the thread and maybe even ban someone. Actually - like caustic said - we've some invisible mods who never do anything in the community, they just (most likely) randomly ban people without any founding. I mean. One person writes something and he get banned for that. 1000 other people write the same and don't get banned. And the thing the persons say isn't even a banreason. That's called randomness and that's not how you moderate a forum.
The Giving One 2019 年 7 月 16 日 下午 3:23 
What if the forum could have officers instead, somewhat like groups have (yellow names) ? Maybe that is the kind of compromise that could start things off in the right direction ? Limited powers, but more than a regular user, and of course on a trial basis.

Just a thought..............
quickER 🛠 2019 年 7 月 16 日 下午 3:46 
引用自 The Giving One
What if the forum could have officers instead, somewhat like groups have (yellow names) ? Maybe that is the kind of compromise that could start things off in the right direction ? Limited powers, but more than a regular user, and of course on a trial basis.

Just a thought..............
Good idea, but what could be the difference from Mod?
I can think of like you could have coloured name and you could move post to right forum Thread. That will be more harmless from all permissions.
最后由 quickER 🛠 编辑于; 2019 年 7 月 16 日 下午 3:51
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